Ep.45: Man Versus Bear - The Frightening Truth About Men & Violence

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.45: Man Versus Bear - The Frightening Truth About Men & Violence

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist-seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So today we are going to be talking about man versus bear. Unless you've been hiding under a rock lately, this argument of man versus bear has been kind of making its rounds around social media.

And a lot of men are getting butt hurt.

[Lilin Lavin]
They are showing their whole unwashed ass on this one.

[Tommy Lavin]
And to me, it makes total sense. But I guess the people getting butt hurt over it are probably part of the problem, I would say. And if you don't know what man versus bear is, is for women, if you were walking alone in the woods, or even with a friend, would you rather run across a bear or a strange man?

And most of the answers are unsurprisingly bear. Because, and it's not because women don't recognize that bears are dangerous or that a bear could kill them. But they recognize that they are actually probably in more danger running into a strange man.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yep. And I see a lot of whataboutism. What about the statistics around, you know, abuse and assault when it comes to women and men?

Should men pick the bear? Well, there's a lot of statistics out there. You be the judge.

Go out and look how many partners are abused and what their gender is. Go out and look at who's being assaulted at an alarming rate in these situations. And then go ahead and decide what your thoughts are when you compare it to how many people are attacked by bears and what the outcomes of those attacks are in comparison to attacks on women by men and the outcomes.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And there is a good video because there's, like you said, there's all these whataboutisms, you know, oh, well, there's more men than there are bears and blah, blah, blah. And so this dude actually did a video where he took like all the statistics.

He took the amount of bears, took the amount of men and women, and then multiplied, you know, he said, let's go into this total false realism, multiplied the, you know, the amount of bears to equal the amount of women or the amount of men, and then took the amount of bear assaults and then did the same multiplication on that. It was still less. By a lot.

By a lot. And on top of that, if a bear does attack a person, there's only one sentence given to that bear. That bear doesn't get to be, oh, this bear could possibly be rehabilitated.

They don't look at the bear and say, you know what, the bear comes from a really good family and we don't want to mess the bear's life up. Or the bear's doing really well. Or, you know, the plethora of excuses.

[Lilin Lavin]
Bears are always euthanized in the case of these kind of events. Even if the people put themselves in a really stupid position.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, nobody says, well, what were you wearing when you came across the bear? Well, that's not what I mean.

[Lilin Lavin]
There was that gentleman that was a, like, they filmed bears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were out there doing that in the bear environment.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hugging the bears and shit like that. And eventually one day the bear got hungry. Um, you know, and as, as we've, we've talked through this and, you know, I've been talking online about this a whole lot and, you know, I get my fair share of hate on it.

Uh, this is, you know, and again, it's always coming from when I see somebody respond to me in a hateful way, generally, man, I normally go to their profile and surprise, surprise, it's full of misogynistic tweets or, you know, things like that. It's like, well, I see why you're falling on the side of, you know, the bear is, you know, is unrealistic.

[Lilin Lavin]
And what the fuck is this? It is unrealistic because by landmass, I'm much more likely to run into an aggressive man than I am an aggressive bear.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, in the, we were talking about this earlier and you actually ran into a bear in the woods.

[Lilin Lavin]
I did. With our daughter too. We used to live in the mountains in Colorado.

And at the time our oldest daughter was about two and we went out on a walk and it was a, it's a really rural community. Again, it was up in the mountains.

[Tommy Lavin]
Way up in the mountains. Bears all the time.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So you'd see them go out to trash at night if you didn't lock up your stuff properly. I mean, there were some really basic things many people just wouldn't do and it would cause issues.

So we decided to go for a walk and as I got up my driveway onto the main road, I heard, you know, the noise that no one wants to hear, which is the sound of a bear kind of woofing. Which they'll do because they're alerting you. They saw you before you saw them and they don't want the confrontation, believe it or not.

And they're alerting that they're there. So thankfully I had really always been really an avid outdoors person. So I had kind of been prepared for these situations hoping that I never ran into it.

And as, as the bear walked out onto the road with me and you know, when you say road, this is like a dirt road.

[Tommy Lavin]
So don't think this is like a highway or a paved road or anything. This is really, really rural.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was like a rural subdivision with, with gravel roads. So, you know, I immediately think, do I toss my daughter into the brush and then go after the bear? Do I wrap myself around her?

Do I, what do I do in this split second, which felt like forever. And I'm looking at the bear's feet because I know to look up at them is kind of the wrong thing to do. It sends the wrong message.

And so I'm looking at all these different things and she's screaming puppy because, you know, she's two. And then the bear just veered off and, you know, that's not the way these things always go. I was really fortunate in that situation.

You know, again, it felt like forever. I kind of played a bunch of scenarios in my head, trying to figure out what the safest thing to do for my kiddo at the time, because, you know, that was my big priority, but the rather large black bear just kind of went, just quietly disappeared into the woods. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And still when you, when I got home and you told me about that, I still felt better about that situation than if you would have said, Hey, I was taking a walk with our daughter and a strange man popped out of the bushes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. You know, just as a comparison, we lived in Colorado for quite a long time. We went out into the woods.

We went on hikes. We were really outdoors all the time. The only times I ran into issues when we would go into town and this is actually something that happened.

We went into, I think it was cripple Creek, Manitou Springs, Manitou Springs, my fault. We went into Manitou Springs and I had to use the restroom. So I popped into one of the bars because it was a big strip.

And literally, as I went up to ask for where the restroom was, a guy walked up behind me and grabbed my ass. So there's, there's your evidence right there within the same state. I was confronted with a bear and confronted by men and the man still decided to touch me inappropriately.

And he didn't give you any warning, no warning at all.

[Tommy Lavin]
He didn't walk up and say, Hey, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to invade your space.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I was wearing blue jeans. So it's not what I was wearing. Not that that's ever, ever, ever, ever, ever an excuse.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no. And so, you know, this has kind of gone on wild, like wildfire lately. And as, as we talked about it, to me, it comes down to bodily autonomy, you know, whether it's a physical assault, whether it's a sexual assault you know, it all comes down to bodily autonomy.

[Lilin Lavin]
And, and, you know, I will go on to say, because this is a conversation that comes up a lot. Men do get assaulted. I do not believe that assault is ever appropriate.

If it's an older woman that's assaulting a younger man, they're still pedophiles. If it is a man that's being abused by their partner, that is still abuse, and they should get the same exact punishment that a man would in their situation. Men do disproportionately get a lot of stigma placed on them when they talk about these things, because people make fun of them, and it's not funny.

There's nothing okay about it, and men shouldn't be reacting to those things with violence. But it's incredibly unfair to sit there and say, well, if a guy hit me, I would punch them back when, you know, if he said the same thing about a man, it would not be looked at in the same light. And, you know, granted, there's reasons why.

However, I don't think it's okay to minimize abuse towards men, sexual, physical, or anything. So in no way is this meant to come across like that. But the whataboutism around this is the fact that women are being violated and assaulted at an absolutely insane number, and many women are afraid to come forward.

And as they've gotten stricter with abortion access, that has caused tons more issue, because now you're taking an individual who was already put in a bad situation, and then you're pushing a lot of other really invasive things on them in that process. And then not only that, but the just reporting is invasive. It's incredibly negative.

People are often blamed, even if it's inadvertently blamed, aggressively, directly. I mean, there's a lot of blaming.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, like I said, the whole thing comes, the first thing that pops into mind, because this is what you hear all the time. Well, what were you wearing?

You know, nobody asks somebody that's attacked by a bear, what were you wearing when the bear attacked you? Because the attack itself is wrong. It doesn't matter if you were in a bikini.

It doesn't matter if you were in blue jeans. It doesn't fucking matter. And to me, this whole thing is women are trying to tell us something.

And there is a portion of men who are listening. There's a portion of men that are actively, you know, fighting the same battle, I would say, you know, being allies. And then there's a portion, unfortunately seems larger, that isn't listening, that is ignoring it or blowing it off or making it seem like, oh, this is just another bullshit deal.

And it's not because if women say, I would literally feel safer running into a bear in the woods than a man, that should fucking tell you something. And it should tell you something about our society, where we've gotten, like you said, these abortion laws definitely don't help, because all we're doing is giving men more and more power over women's bodies.

[Lilin Lavin]
That they don't deserve. No, nobody. I mean, again, putting it in the other perspective, I shouldn't be telling a guy if they should get a vasectomy.

I shouldn't be telling a guy any of those things. If you're engaging sexually with me, I have the right to say, hey, you should use protection. Or hey, you know, I don't want children.

These are some things we should think about. And then if the guy doesn't want to do that, that's fine. That's their choice.

But then I would probably choose not to engage with them. And that's the way that that should go. And it's the same thing when you're a guy, I would feel talking to a woman, you should be having that discussion.

And at the end of the day, if they say, I'm not looking to do that, and it happens anyway, don't be surprised when they don't want to do it. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, you know, I don't know. I mean, I wanted to talk about this today, because it has bothered me how much pushback I've seen, and how much, how many people I've seen make fun of it. You know, even people that I didn't expect to make fun of it, it did.

And, you know, made me have a double take there and be like, whoa, you know, I mean, because this is a pretty clear message. It is, I don't know how much more clear women need to be about this subject for men to care. You know, maybe that's just the problem and don't care.

They really don't care. Right. Right now, historically, I mean, punishments, as we know, like you brought up, a lot of times these aren't reported.

But when they are, there's an immediate victim blame. And then if it gets further than that, and a lot of times the guy skirts, you know, or if he does get in trouble, there's, it's pretty minimal.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, I'm always happily surprised when there is real accountability in these situations, which is sad to say, it is less and less common that especially first time offenders, which it should matter, do commit violent acts towards women, that they just kind of get told it's not a big deal unless they're a minority individual or something like that. And then it still really depends. So there's a lot of things that happen.

But on the same token, women that are minorities that report these things get even worse treatment. So there are tons of things happening here that people aren't addressing. And there's been an ongoing conversation where people will bring up all manner of things.

And the not all men conversation has been going on for a while. And you'll see a guy that has to jump in and say, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, this wasn't you know, that doesn't represent me. But then why did you feel that you needed to respond?

You know, what about it sat with you and you felt that you were called out? That's the question.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, because when when that first brought up, no part of me thought, oh, wow, this is an attack on me. Probably because I don't engage in that behavior. You know, it's just not so no part of me felt attacked by bear versus man or man versus bear, you know, no part of me thought I had to say, well, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, not all men.

You know, I mean, I understand that's implied that that is implied in there. But still, all men, and I understand this about myself, are a possible threat. And until you prove otherwise, I have no problem.

I mean, when I first meet a woman, I'm, I normally kind of give space and all that until I can tell that person's comfortable with me. And I guess I just I'm kind of baffled about how why that's not common sense. You know, to me, this just seems like common sense.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I think it goes with other trends that I've been seeing. And as a guy, you know, you'd be the one to tell me but fathers of daughters, you kind of see them saying how they're going to tell their daughters to live the kind of guys that they're going to push their daughters towards, or, you know, whether or not they're going to have continued education or how they're going to dress. And some even go as far as to dictate doctor's appointments.

Yeah. And I don't know as a father, is it do you feel like those things are appropriate?

[Tommy Lavin]
No, not not at all. I've always told my my daughters, you know, we have we have all daughters. So I've helped raise our daughters as independent thinkers that they you know, I don't think I can think back up one time where I have ever looked at my daughter and said, Well, you're wearing that, you know, I don't think because one, we've had multiple conversations with them, you know, don't put your drink down and leave it alone.

You know, all these things that women shouldn't have to worry about. I mean, a guy can put his beer down and generally probably be fine.

[Lilin Lavin]
Nobody, you know, you actually did actually have a situation where someone's like to drink. So I mean, yeah, I mean, it does happen to guys.

[Tommy Lavin]
They did have have it happened to me. Kind of backfired because at the time I party lots of, you know, the effect wasn't wasn't quite what was, was expected. But, you know, but generally, I could tell other than that one time, and I partied at bars all the time clubs all the time.

I mean, hundreds, thousands of times. So, you know, I could not say the same about Yeah, women, you know, I mean, yeah, never accept.

[Lilin Lavin]
We've told our kids don't accept open drinks. Don't take things from people you don't know. It's pretty bad when you have bartenders coming up with different codes, like the kind of coffee, or whether you ask for water or the type of drink nail polish to check for for drugs and drinks.

There was that issue in Africa where they tried to make condoms to prevent against assault. These things are so common. And yet we still have a hard time accepting that a woman would choose to go out in the woods and deal with potential bear attack over walking down a street at night, even with a group.

And it's not just, you know, cis gendered women. This is this is a really huge issue for trans women. And even trans men.

It's just, unfortunately, it feels like a lot of the cis men in general have been put in this situation where if you're not aggressive, and you're not overly sexual that you're, you're considered weak, a sip or somebody called me a sin.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, then somebody else jumped in. It was like, so a dude is saying don't do this. And there are some I mean, like I said, I, it feels like social media has made this worse, because I mean, it makes everything worse.

Yeah. And in this case, though, people, I'm a firm believer, people show you who they really are on social media. You know, the things they won't say in public or won't say yet, or don't quite have the nerve to say yet.

[Lilin Lavin]
They'll say in the small, selective group of people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, they'll say in social media, loud and proud. They'll put it on their fucking profile. They'll post about I mean, the shit that I've seen go through is just fucking baffling.

And I, you know, I look at it, I'm like, this is why the bear? I mean, this isn't a hard concept. I mean, I'm gonna really struggle to, to get a long podcast out of this, because it's such a basic fucking concept.

And it's so fucking easy to understand. But it feels like I have to explain it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So I mean, yeah, as a Satanist, this is pretty simple. bodily autonomy, personal sovereignty, it kind of goes hand in hand with keep your hands off people unless you've been given permission, and make sure they're old enough to consent.

These are very basic things. You and I guess the other thing is you don't marry someone and automatically have magic rights to do whatever you want with them whenever you want.

[Tommy Lavin]
That goes for both people, but especially for apparently men seem to think that it means you should get sex on demand, no matter what ownership, you know, I see, I see that argument all of the time, especially on the Christian nationalist side that I mean, they push and unfortunately, I see a lot of the wives pushing it to on either one.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, where many trad wives, though, I'd like to point out are in fact not married. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, and, and pushing this ownership sort of bullshit that Yeah, once you're married, you're the property of your husband. And that's, that's just fucking shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, that they should tell you how to dress who to talk to, where to go what to read what to listen to that they get sex when they want sex.

[Tommy Lavin]
And another big thing is, um, you know, I, I say this quite often, it's not no means no. It's yes means yes. So unless you get a yes, assume it's a no, right, even married, even married.

Oh, you know, I mean, yes, there is such thing as marital rape.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And the fact that there are groups of people that are trying to push those laws, because those laws weren't in effect until what 70s 80s.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I mean, actually, actually, up into the early 90s, there were still issues with that. So I mean, and then prior to that women before you were doing like early 70s, you still had to have a guy to sign off on a loan or a credit card or so there's a lot of reasons people say, Oh, we should just go back to when things were simpler. No, let me tell you what was simpler about it.

In order to have a home, in order to provide for their family in order to do anything, a woman had to have a man, whether it be their father, a friend, because that would happen quite a brother, a brother or, you know, a spouse, they couldn't have the basic things they need. You can't get a credit card jobs were hard to come by, they didn't pay very well. And, you know, you couldn't sign for a lot of things yourself.

And don't even get me started on the medical things you couldn't couldn't do.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, that's still the case today. I mean, if women go in for a hysterectomy, and try and get a hysterectomy, and they're in their what they call their quote, unquote, childbearing years, you know, they're in their 20s. There's a lot of doctors that will turn them away.

I mean, it's just saying, Oh, no, we won't do that. Because at some point, you might decide you want children.

[Lilin Lavin]
This is a very drastic decision. Have you really thought it through?

[Tommy Lavin]
Have you talked to your husband about this?

[Lilin Lavin]
Because, you know, you had gotten some surgery done. Did a doctor stop and ask you if you were Nope.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, I mean, they asked me if I was, you know, they asked me the general cause you understand that, you know, you will more than likely not be able to have children after this. Yes, sometimes these fail. But, you know, and that's about as far as it went.

They didn't say, has your wife signed off on this, you know, because we were married at the time. They didn't ask you in for a consultation, make sure that you signed off on a piece of paper saying that, yeah, it's okay for my husband to get this surgery. You know, there was none.

It was like, Okay, cool. You understand that from this point on blah, blah, blah. Yeah, get it.

The whole reason behind it. Okay, cool. Sign here.

Done.

[Lilin Lavin]
Weird. Yeah, I mean, and that's the other thing people don't get a lot of guys are mad about voting. I can't think like we I don't think I've ever missed an election since I've been old enough to vote.

We've been together long enough that we've been together since I've Have you ever once asked me who I voted for told me who to vote for? I can't think they have.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, I mean, we've had casual conversation. We have conversations about politics, you know, but never coming out of the booth. Did I say you fucking voted for that person, right?

Or, you know, anything or when you're walking in, okay, you're going to do this. That's just, you know, I've heard stories of women going in with a list written out by their husband of who they're supposed to vote for. And even behind that protective curtain, they could do whatever the hell they want.

Nobody would ever know they still do follow the list. To me, it's baffling.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm like, Yeah, I think unfortunately, when you live in a very controlling, abusive environment, it's scary. Even when you know that you're in a safe space to do something like that, you don't feel like you are because in the back of your mind, you think they could find out Yeah,

[Tommy Lavin]
I was I was just as I said that, and as you started talking, I was thinking, you know, I sort of put my put my mind in a place of somebody who might be in that and I could imagine the paranoia thinking, you know, what if they do find out?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
What if this goes public one day?

[Lilin Lavin]
What if you've seen it? I've seen it recently where there have been some very, very nasty physical altercations that led to incredible damage to the person based on claims of inappropriate behavior. And you just see a bunch of people jumping on while they shouldn't have been acting like that.

They brought it on themselves. You know, why if my girl talked to this person, or if they had friends that were guys, or if I didn't like their friend, I'm going to let them know I run this house. And that is that is so toxic and inappropriate.

And it should be the same. And you know, we had some people, I won't call them friends in our life that we knew through a mutual friend that were really sexist. And this person was a woman.

And they were very rude toward their spouse. They were very condescending. They were very, you know, nasty about things.

And they would usually say, like, are they mansplaining again? Or can you can you teach my husband how to you got your husband vacuuming? Can you can you teach my that was, I hated that.

So there's definitely people like that. And I don't like them either.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, again, it happened, it goes without saying that abuse happens on both sides. But there is a very much offset. You know, statistics that happen with that.

And again, statistics are driven by reports, which we all know reports are way off on both sides, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I mean, you know, which gender had to fight to be able to vote? Right? I mean, property?

[Tommy Lavin]
Is there anywhere in the Constitution that gives a man permission to vote? Is there an amendment that says men can vote?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, I think that's just a general right?

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. So that that's the sort of fucked up thing. It's like, why do we have to have amendment that now some people are talking about repealing that says men can vote, but yet we had to put one in there for women.

I mean, are you starting to kind of get the idea why the fucking bear? Yeah, it's a choice here.

[Lilin Lavin]
How many people do they stop when you know, anytime you've done something for work, do they say, Well, how does this affect your family? You know, don't you have kids? Do you ever want to just be at home raising your children?

I mean, have you ever run into that as a professional?

[Tommy Lavin]
Nope, never once. In fact, when I was at one of my jobs, and they were looking to move a sort of half and half, they were breaking, they were changing the direction that the company was going. And it was half of us could stay and become technical support, sort of deep code, technical support.

And the other half could be on the road consultants. They didn't ask any of us, you know, Oh, well, do you have a family? I actually went to my boss and said, if you put me on this site, where I'm away from my family all the time, I'm going to look for another job.

But nobody asked me, you know, nobody said, Hey, will this affect your your family? Do you think you know, do you think you need to? No, never, not once.

Yeah, in my entire career.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So there's this ongoing just shame that I feel like is built in. And I do think a lot of it comes from this twisted version of religion.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I mean, Oh, yes, definitely. I mean, when I again, when I go back, and I look at the people that attack on this subject, you know, bear versus man. And like I said, I look at their profile, I inevitably find a bunch of misogynistic shit.

But the thing I also normally find on there is religion, either Christian, or Muslim, generally, and usually bigotry in there, too. Yeah. And mostly, just because we're, you know, we're in America.

So we have more Christians right now. vocally.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I should say, I do definitely see it from there is a stronger coming presence from the Muslim community as well. So I mean, for people that don't think that we speak out against religious extremism on all sides, I definitely include Muslims in that. So when they're sitting there saying women are property, or they don't have a right to this, that or the other, or they're condoning things like the unfortunate reality of honor killings and stuff that is that is abhorrent.

And, and I definitely don't don't sit here and stand for it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, like I say, whenever I'm approached with that, that now do the Muslims, I'm like, okay, when they start, when they get a group of people, and they take over a party and start passing laws, oh, yeah, definitely, I will be speaking up at the same I'm not afraid of either side. I don't give a shit.

Yeah, my argument is against these religious extremists and these types of laws that they put in, whether it's misogynistic laws, or anything like that, that's controlling abuse, anything like that. So I don't give a fuck what religion you are. Yeah, I don't even give fuck if you're Satanist.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you're Satanist and doing that, I'm still going to fucking speak up against I was gonna say we've had conversations with people that have some extreme positions that are or identify as Satanist or other groups. So extremism is not limited to just Christianity. It's just that right now Christian nationalists are the loudest, most obnoxious, aggressive voice.

out there that's currently writing legislation and causing a lot of this strife. And I do believe that a lot of the social media stuff is intentionally created to cause division. So I don't necessarily believe the number of people that are jumping in and crying about the bear comparative.

But I do know that there are plenty of actual men, especially in the would you call that the alfalfa males? I'm an alpha man, the ones that say that even having an orgasm is gay, like that kind of stupid crap. And I feel like they're the ones that are, I don't know if they're struggling to understand masculinity.

I don't know if they've been just so pushed into the extremist version of what a man looks like. But it's just so I don't know how you can exist like that. I do feel bad in a way for some of these guys, because I don't know how you can have a healthy relationship with yourself, let alone anybody else with the expectations that a lot of these extremist groups put on guys like that alpha male camp where you get screamed at.

Like, is that really supposed to help you?

[Tommy Lavin]
See, that's the difference. I don't feel bad for them, because to me, they made a choice. And they're making an active choice every time they do something.

Every time they either go deeper into that ideology, or every time they talk down to a woman or anything like that, it's a choice. They're doing it consciously. They know what they're doing.

If they don't think it's wrong, that's still them. They have made that choice to say, to convince themselves that this isn't wrong, this is right. But I understand what you're saying, too, because I get it where some people were raised in that, and maybe they don't know anything else is what they're maybe what you're kind of saying, or they've been pushed into this sort of, they've been indoctrinated so bad that they just don't know their mind anymore.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I think one of the things I struggle with is there's a lot of young men, and they've said ideologically, they lean conservative on a lot of these things. And I feel that it's mostly related to the really horrible, loud examples that they're seeing. So they're struggling with understanding what it is to be a man, especially when a lot of guys don't make themselves available to be role models, I think, to other men.

And you're just hearing a lot of these really crazy, I mean, some of the off the wall things I've heard, if your wife gets pregnant, they can store sperm from other partners. And so it might not be...

[Tommy Lavin]
It might not be yours, or all yours, you know. Oh, my God, the conspiracy theory fucking nut job.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right, but they're all over. And a lot of guys listen to these supposedly strong men out there that are doing podcasts and YouTube videos. And they're out there teaching young men what it is to be a man.

And they're teaching them lies and misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda. And I do have a lot of concerns for the younger folks, because I don't feel like, I feel like, just like for women, there's things that we were told generationally, you don't talk about, you don't share it. And you maybe it's a hush hush conversation.

And we can go down the list from sex and sexual issues to, you know, menopause periods, there's just so many things that women are really told not to talk about publicly that are just quiet conversations. And I feel like, and I can't speak for you. So you can tell me, a lot of men aren't given permission to talk about the struggles of having normal emotions, how to express themselves with their partners, how to be a compassionate individual, to share burdens with your partner, and what it means to be a real leader.

I don't know that that's a conversation a lot of fathers are having with their sons or men are having with each other.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, I mean, I would say definitely on my part, no, I had to discover that for myself. Part of it was just sort of ingrained, I guess it was who I was, I had always, even when I was a younger man, and, and learning and all of that sort of shit, there is things that I would see other guys do or hear other guys say that I just felt intrinsically, I just felt this was wrong. This is wrong.

And I would either not engage in it. Or, you know, I would speak up probably not as much as I should have when I was younger, but I was also quite a bit smaller. And you know, kind of, you know, got intimidated.

Yeah, I had a much lower self esteem when I was a teenager and stuff like that. But I still knew that's wrong. That's wrong.

I don't want to engage in that behavior. So I would just leave the conversation or whatnot. But no, I mean, I had to, and it's definitely not something that's that's normally taught.

And I will add to it, that it definitely doesn't help that schools have removed sex ed, anatomy, shit like that from their curriculum and replaced it with what am I looking for?

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, the purity culture.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, the purity culture. You know, no sex until man, you know, and it's an abstinence based education. That's what I was looking for.

They've replaced it with these religious abstinence based programs. And so there's, there's guys that literally, I mean, I saw the stupidest fucking question. And this wasn't from like a young guy.

This was a doctor was saying somebody, a guy she knows, I mean, this guy has a PhD was asking, how do women pee with a tampon in?

[Lilin Lavin]
Wow.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, seriously, there are, there are men, not, not boys. There are men out there who have no idea what the female anatomy is like.

[Lilin Lavin]
They just don't know. He wasn't a medical doctor.

[Tommy Lavin]
I would hope not. No.

[Lilin Lavin]
No. And I've heard that from women too. So that's what I mean.

I don't feel like the reasonable conversations are happening and there should be a real life education to the many things that go into this. And I think that would help foster a better communication and it would better environment. And it would make me stop this whole stupid man versus bear issue in the first place.

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't know if it would stop it because you know, there's a difference between education and understanding and then the actual physical side of, of things that, that, you know, men do and the misogyny and stuff like that. There's idiots out there that just don't know. It's not hard to fucking Google anatomy or to, you know, there's pictures everywhere.

There's pictures everywhere. You know, it's not hard to learn that part. You have to be willfully ignorant to not understand that, to not know that.

I mean, I knew that as a teenager, I understood the full, you know, I mean, it's so, but the other side of the, the man versus bear, you know, the actual danger part of it. I don't know if that would solve. I don't know if it would or not.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I mean, maybe, I don't know if I could be wrong, maybe helping to understand that we have a lot of commonalities when it comes to our emotions. We really have the same emotions when it comes to a lot of physical things. There's differences just because of weight and bone structure and muscle density.

There's tons of those things that, you know, vary. There's plenty of guys that have very, very slender, delicate flame frames. And there's plenty of women that have much, you know, more robust, strong frames.

So it's varied between people. It's not just black and white. But I think if we sat and we talked about, you know, what does it mean to be involved with someone intimately?

What are the consequences to intimate relationships? What are no's? What are yes's?

How to communicate, you know, wants and needs, and that it's okay to engage in curious sexual behavior as long as it's consensual. And that those are healthy things that help you learn what you're looking for and what you want and take away some of the shame that's attached to very natural behaviors. Because I think, personally, I feel like a lot of the things that guys are expressing come from a place of anger and aggression and an inability, you know, out of frustration to really express these feelings.

[Tommy Lavin]
Maybe I, I think that I think that would help. I think there's a mix of things. Obviously, education helps.

But I think punishment helps, too. I think if we actually stop letting people get away with this, then people stop doing bad things because they're like, oh, shit, I could get life in prison. You know, I mean, if people actually got punished for the behavior, then I think some of it would stop not because they don't want to do it, but out of fear of if I get, you know, if it was taken seriously.

And then I think there's there's also just the if other if other men would speak up against it. You know, I do believe that there is a there is a sizable amount of men that know this is not OK. There's too many that are quiet about it, is my opinion.

And I think if more spoke up and I do see it, you know, I have seen as this conversation has evolved, I have seen more men come out and say the bear makes sense. The bear makes fucking sense. And then when people say stupid shit, then they go back and say, see, this is why the bear makes sense, because you're being an asshole.

You're actually proving the point that the bear makes sense.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And I'll also add to that, that there is a portion of women that enable some of these things. And some of that is because of environmental, the way they were, they were raised and things like that.

And generationally, it's hard to escape some of those really bad habits. And then there's the, you know, movie side of it where people, you know, well, that or they glorify the bad boy, you know, and what it means to be a bad boy and the savior complex that many women have because they they're not to gender people. But many women do have this nurturing aspect.

And they do want to try and help people that they see that are suffering. There is a level of compassion, empathy that many women seem to have, myself included, where when you see people hurting, you want to be helpful, you want to find ways to to help them. And I think an important message is when you get into relationship, you shouldn't be getting into relation to fix somebody, a person's not a fixer upper, that's for cars and homes, human beings, you know, you don't have, and this is just like, not just for the situation, but you don't go into it, expect them to become somebody else, that's unfair to yourself.

And it's unfair to that person, because you're you're not necessarily, you know, that's not a realistic expectation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, I had a thought there for a moment. And then it's sort of, you know, because I talk too much.

[Lilin Lavin]
Not at all. And I think, you know, from a personal perspective, I think we had to learn a lot of these things, too, because I think we both came from homes that didn't really model things we wanted in our own lives, we knew we didn't want it, we just didn't know how to build what we wanted. So I think there was definitely many times in our relationship where we really went at each other, you know, emotionally, and verbally, where, you know, we were angry and frustrated, and we didn't know how to do things.

And we had to learn how to communicate in a healthy way, and how to work together to build something that we could both be happy with.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, communication is definitely, you know, part of the situation. But again, I kind of fall back to there. I remember what I was going to say, you don't have to be an asshole or abusive to women to be a bad boy.

Why? You know, you seriously don't. I mean, you can be the bad boy, quote, unquote, bad boy, you know, whatever, you know, but you don't have to be an asshole to women to do that.

You know, you can be the bad boy in many other ways. But I do understand, and we were listening to something, I forgot, it was a story on why, I think it was a Trump thing, why the person, you know, didn't report it way back when. And it was because, and I thought this is where you were going with the movies, is there was a period in America where the movies sensationalized the girl says no, and that's...

No means yes, you know, oh, that just means...

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh yeah, like Gone with the Wind, there's a bunch of really... That just means, oh, I need to push harder, you know, and no, no fucking means no. No, it was a conversation about what happened with Trump and Eugene Carroll, because there was some people that said, well, they admitted that they thought it was sexy, that it was sexy for that kind of behavior.

And no, the correction of that was during that time period, historically, when they were brought up, there was a lot of, you know, the woman pushes away the guy and try to reject them and runs away and the guy's supposed to chase after them and then, you know, win them over and dominate them. And it was just the way things were depicted, not that it was a healthy thing. It was Eugene Carroll saying that that was sexualized, that that was seen as normal, and it was seen as typical.

And it was a negative behavior that was definitely promoted at that time. So there are some people that saw that as an appropriate way to chase somebody, because it was depicted as an appropriate way to chase.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right, right. And yeah, I've seen that in my life, you know, I've seen guys do that, and you know, they hear the no, or they, you know, have that conversation, that just means I need to, you know, push harder, I need to be more forceful, domineering, you know, and sure, there's a place for domineering consensually, consensually, right? If that's what people want, what both people want, that's okay.

Consensual is a key fucking word there. Yeah, consensual.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think the other disturbing thing I saw from this conversation with the bare man thing was that there was this, I guess, sentiment with some guys that when a woman fights or cries that that makes them feminine, and they find that attractive. And that was a really grotesque sentiment to me.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I'm sure we've, I mean, I thought about this, I was like, you know, we should have put a trigger warning on this at the fucking beginning. But you know, I figured bear versus man sort of kind of was that.

[Lilin Lavin]
We'll try to write it in there at the top.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right, you know, but obviously, yeah, I mean, that's just I've seen that sort of shit before, too. And again, that's the type of shit that I'm like, no, no, no, that's, that's wrong. And that's where you go back to, you can be in a relationship, you can be in a marriage, and, and rape can still happen.

You know, that that's still a thing. And it is so fucked up that it took us to the 90s to get some of these laws. And now we're back to trying to repeal them in some cases.

[Lilin Lavin]
Even even the women's right to vote women's place in the workplace, you know, they try to take away a lot of these protections and abilities that women have, it's just grotesque. I know I use that word too much. But it's it's horrible to see people just trying to strip away and women going along with stripping away of their rights.

And some people saying that there should be one household vote for voting and just crazy crap like that. But, you know, I think what it comes down to, and I think one of the things I wanted out of this conversation is how can we address this? What can we do to stop this?

And I think it starts with talking to your kids speaking up when you see these things happening in your community or online, and being an advocate, even if it's not the the, the cool thing to do. You know, I hate to say it like that. But it seems like guys, you know, in front of their their guy friends will make jokes that are just awful.

And gross. You heard it with with Donald Trump when he was in that group of guys, and you know, you can grab five or whatever, and they'll let you do it. And everybody laughed along.

That is not a unique occurrence. There's plenty of places where guys are having these conversations and everyone laughs like it's just fine. And if you don't feel like it's fine, please say something.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, that's another thing that would help too is, hey, why don't we put stop putting people in fucking power that have done, you know, that have been abusive? You know, I mean, that's probably not a good role model.

No, you know, so if we want that to stop happening, we need to remove abusive people from positions of power, positions of authority, positions of fame, you know, go on anybody that could be a role model if they if they're in a, you know, if they're an abusive person.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I don't really care what their political alignment is. No, I don't give a shit if it's a guy or a girl. I mean, there's plenty of women out there that have these incredibly harmful, antiquated notions about what it means to be a woman.

I think that's just as awful. And I think it's just there's there's so many conversations happening out there. And this was just really captured a really ugly sentiment that is common.

And the man versus bear just brought out how many women will condone some of this, how many men are fine to condone some of this. And then all the people on the other side saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is a this is a red flag. This is a warning.

Women are trying to say that there is a problem fundamentally, not only here, but elsewhere with the way men are behaving and the things that are being allowed in our justice system. And, you know, I'm hesitant to ever say that there should be certain consequences, because I know our justice system has just huge fundamental issues.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I believe there should be a certain punishment, but I also know that that would be abused and it would be used against certain communities because it's already been, you know, kind of they foreshadowed. Yeah, they foreshadowed that.

So that's when I was like, yeah, I can't support that because of this. But anyways, so man versus bear right now, bear. Yeah, I mean, definitely bear.

You know, I totally understand. I get it. I hear you.

I hope more people do here. And I hope that over time, over discussion, over changes, that that could eventually swing the other way. But that's not an overnight fix.

That is going to take a long time, if ever. But I do think possibly, possibly with enough change, we could get there as a society. But that has to have men acknowledging the problem.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And saying, okay, I hear this, I acknowledge it. I understand why. And this is what I'm going to do.

And this is how I'm going to play my part to try and fix this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, no, I think that's, that's really great. And I hope y'all listen out there, if you have feedback or thoughts about it, or even want to engage in discussion, you know, reach out and let us know. But it's something that's going to take all of us and especially, you know, guys out there hearing this, you know, stand up and start helping to call it out and be that ally.

And that's going to help to be the impetus of change.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, the one thing I will add, because I know we were about to cut right there. The one thing I will add, and this is a pat on the back for all the satanists out there, is I have seen many times because people will use my, you're going to listen to a satanist, the satanist has decency. And then I will see women comment and say, you know what, out of all the people that I've met, I've seen more decent satanist when it comes to men talking about this sort of stuff or that than other religions, the other ideology.

[Lilin Lavin]
Thank you to the allies for recognizing that. I think, you know, compassion, empathy are huge parts. And there's nothing more compassionate or empathetic than being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand the fear that is there and the reasons why, and that there has to be something done to change it.

So to all the guys out there doing that, thank you. And for all the guys out there speaking up against this, thank you. And for everyone that's supporting those guys, and that's helping to get that message across, you know, again, thank you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And anybody that says, I don't understand the bear, go fuck yourself. All right.

We're gonna call it with that. Wherever you are in the world. Good evening.

Good morning. Good day. And Hail Satan.