Ep.43: In Defense of Diversity - Satanic Rights and the Fight Against Hate

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.43: In Defense of Diversity - Satanic Rights and the Fight Against Hate

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So before we get started today, Lillian and I have kind of mentioned a few times on here that we're going to be grandparents soon. And it is possible that during one of those weeks, we might have grandparent stuff to do.

So if for some reason, over the next couple weeks or something like that, we miss an episode, it's not because we went away or anything like that. We simply just had grandparent things to do and couldn't push out an episode in time. So just wanted to kind of put that in out there into the ether for...

Yeah, it'll probably be a few weeks still yet. Yeah, you know, if you see us just kind of drop off one Sunday and we didn't make it, it's again, we didn't go anywhere.

[Lilin Lavin]
Despite popular belief, family does actually matter to Satanists.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, family comes first, always. So this week, we wanted to cover the attempted bombing, pipe bomb that was thrown TSTs thrown under the porch, I guess on TSTs.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, at Salem, Massachusetts headquarters.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, I think that that aligns with some of our earlier episodes where we've been talking about, you know, them trying to make Satanism illegal and all this. And, you know, this just sort of brings it brings another level into it, you know, kind of brings into that domestic terrorism type level that we deal with.

And this isn't the first time, you know, it's like, this is the third.

[Lilin Lavin]
It may have been more than that. But it's the third one I think I know of in 2022. Someone actually, not someone, a religious extremist who actually went there with a Bible and backpack and matches and all that stuff set fire to the front of the Massachusetts headquarters location, the only location we have at as far as I'm aware of.

Yeah. And, and they said they did it because of their faith. So where have we heard that before?

Michael Cassidy comes to mind, who traveled all the way from his home state up to Iowa, just because there was a satanic display in a pluralistic space with other religious displays.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, and, and again, even at the congregation level here, we've had bomb threats that we've had to let the police know, and they notified the FBI.

[Lilin Lavin]
And, you know, we actually I put in the complaint with the FBI. But, you know, it's a hate crime. And it's a domestic terrorism crime.

And when people make these claims, it's our job to report them. So regardless of whether or not it's credible, I take them all very seriously. And I assume that they're all credible, because you just see what happens, be it shopping malls, or schools or other locations, synagogues, many places have been getting disproportionately crapped on by a certain portion of society.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And that's the thing is, you know, as Satanists, we're not we're not doing anything other than just saying, hey, we get the same rights as you guys do. And when I say you guys, we're primarily bringing that up to Christian nationalists, because they're the ones that are trying to take everybody else's rights away.

And so we're just saying, no, we have the same rights, we don't go to their places of worship and bother them. We don't know destroy anything or anything like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
I would absolutely never condone or support actions of aggression towards religious buildings or anything during the service. I absolutely would not. The only time I would be at all in line with any of that is there are certain religious buildings with people that are doing very hateful preaching.

And if someone were to be peacefully able to demonstrate by, you know, using just some people will go and wear certain things to show that abuse is being allowed in a or some people will go with a sign that they'll bring out during a service. And, you know, as long as you're not doing anything violent, I have no problem with that form of protest. Obviously, use it sparingly and carefully and know, you know, be sure of what you're doing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But again, you know, we don't show up on Sunday mornings, we don't show up at their Bible studies, we don't do any of that stuff. That's not- We should not.

And we should not. I mean, that's not our place. We live in a pluralistic country.

And again, that means for Christian nationalists, who are the ones that seem to need this education, that everybody has a right to their own religion to be treated the same as anybody else. Nobody gets elevated. Nobody's, I should rephrase that, nobody's supposed to get elevated, because we know damn right that they get elevated anyways.

You know, and we also know damn right that if we were destroying or trying to destroy their places of worship, their church and stuff like that, it would be headline news, there would be manhunts for Satanists, you know, I mean, it would be crazy sort of shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
But it would also be contrary to the things that we value. It would be, yeah. I mean, I thought it was supposed to be for other people too, but you know, either way, it is absolutely contrary to what we hold dear.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm just kind of saying if we did it, I mean, I can't even imagine the amount of news stories, but because somebody does it to a satanic organization, it's like, oh, okay, we'll write an article about it. You know, now, I will say from my understanding, the Salem Police Department has done a very good job every single time.

And even for us here, when we had, you know, a bomb threat for our book club, you know, we were having this really dangerous book club going on, you know, I mean, that's, um, the police did show up, and they didn't bother us or anything like that. But they did.

[Lilin Lavin]
They stayed and made sure for the event that was being, you know, threatened. And I think we were reading, I think it was this book is gay. Yeah.

Which, oh my gosh, guys, that's, you know, a bunch of adults got together to read a book about. It's like the anarchist cookbook, you know. Which, by the way, is trash.

But yeah, either way.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, I mean, and then we also, you know, at an event when we did a Black Mass, which was a Black Mass that was for people that, you know, it was a private event, in the sense that people had to sort of pre-register, and it was at a private establishment. So it wasn't like we went into the middle of, you know, a park and started doing that. We did have the Houston police there as well.

And they did a very good job on that, too. They kind of held a line in the media, because the Christian Nationalists and the Catholic, the really- Well, it was actually Catholic extremists at that one.

[Lilin Lavin]
I believe it was the FATIMA organization. They kept trying to come in and, you know, be pretty violent. They absolutely have a right to peacefully protest.

A lot of them are there just with crosses and praying and doing things. For me, yeah, that is really, it's defacing property. There was salt in the grass so bad that a bunch of it died.

I mean, do you really think, I like salt. I eat food with salt on it. I really love french fries coated in salt.

So it really doesn't harm me at all. I mean- Doesn't stop me from walking past or doing, yeah. So yeah, I definitely recommend if you live in a snowy location to throw salt on the ground to help prevent ice and slippage.

But grass, not so much.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, not on grass. Um, so, you know, that was as it came up again, you know, and I can even go pre-TST with this. We had an individual here in Houston named Michael Ford.

We're in Spring, Texas. Yeah, Spring, Texas, which is a suburb of Houston. And he tried to open a physical location for his- He did successfully open a Luciferian church.

Yeah, I say tried because they eventually ran him out of town.

[Lilin Lavin]
You can look it up. It was actually really cool. I wasn't there for the opening day.

I did visit the location. I did speak with Michael Ford. It was really cool.

But it was great because on the opening day, you can look up the article. There's several articles. He was there and there was protesters.

Yep. And he was incredibly put, you know, well put together, calm. He maintained a very calm demeanor.

And it made the religious folks that were there to protest quite incensed. They were rude. They were semi-aggressive.

They said a lot of very hateful things. And not once did Michael Ford stoop to that level. He conducted himself with real class and dignity.

And, you know, he set a very good example of who we as individuals who believe in personal accountability as one of the top things that we could ever do. He stood that line. He did very good representing his beliefs.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, Luciferianism is a bit different than Satanism. There's a lot of similarities.

And then there's some differences in there as well. But again, you know, peaceful, you know, peaceful people just trying to have a gathering at a location, you know, and again, heavily protested, broke windows, you know, as the year went on. They were there for about a year that I think they lasted.

The windows broke and somebody tried to chainsaw a big old branch from, you know, something like a hundred-year-old pecan tree down onto it. And they missed the building, which I think they hit a Bible store behind it, which is like a religious book. Yeah.

Some religious books. Yeah. Which I remember, which is, yeah, like super irony there.

And nobody said, hmm, maybe, you know, but, you know, and again, with that, the threats got so bad, not to him, but to the landlord, because they didn't buy this building. They were renting it. And the landlord didn't even live in the U.S. They lived in the U.K. And at first they were like, you know, these are just a couple of crazies. But it got so bad and they threatened the landlord so much, they threatened the landlord's family so bad that she had to actually tell them, look, I really don't mind what you guys do. You guys seem like, you know, really nice and I've never had any problems, but I can't lease to you again because I'm afraid for my family's life.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And that's an ongoing issue, which I really take exception to because this is predominantly coming from a group of people that constantly complain about persecution. And in some countries, I'm not going to say that they're not persecuted or threatened or killed because of their religion.

I understand that that's wrong. And I understand that it happens. So I'm not going to pretend that there aren't situations, but here, here, no, it's not happening.

If they're persecuted, yeah, they're persecuting people. If someone doesn't want to reciprocate a religious greeting of any kind or your religious belief displays or whatever it is. Holiday or something.

That's okay. That's what plurality means. We believe that everyone has the right to do things in the safety and consideration of others.

So you have a right to your religious beliefs, regardless of what they are, to have no belief at all, regardless of what other people might think. But you don't have a right to force it onto other people or to harm people because you don't want them there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And then you'll hear some people that will say, well, you know, you guys deserved it because you're out there doing stuff and you're just instigating the Christians or whatnot. And again, no, they, you know, we have a right to our religion and our quote unquote instigating is basically saying you have that right, or you're going to do this thing, which in many cases they're not supposed to do because of separation of church and state.

Well, if you do this thing, we have the right to do this thing too, because that's what the constitution says.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, and it's not even just that. Some people say that because we have the name Satan, we directly intentionally live in opposition to their existence. And so we bring it on ourselves for that.

Our religious beliefs don't depend on Christianity. They're not tied to Christianity. They are allowed to have their perceived understanding of what they think we are.

But if they want to know what it is, they should speak to Satanist because we have a very different understanding that does not in any way really interact with their beliefs at all.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, whether they like to admit it or not, Christianity isn't the only religion. It isn't the first religion.

You know, there's many, plenty of other religions. And, you know, again, I hear I've heard a plenty of, well, we've seen the shootings at synagogues. We've seen, you know, heard the bomb threats at mosque.

[Lilin Lavin]
And plenty of non-religious people commit acts of violence all the time. Yes. But a lot of times when it's targeting religious institutions.

Religious institutions or providers of care that people don't think should exist or, you know, libraries or other, you know, people seem to have an opposition to certain things which they personally find offense with, which you're allowed to be offended by things. But you're not allowed to then harm people because you were offended by it. Just don't patronize.

You know, don't sit there and pretend that you have this better moral standing and then, you know, do horrible things.

[Tommy Lavin]
Or throw a bomb or set it on fire and say, I don't really care if people were in there, you know, because they're bad people in, you know, my mind, which is basically what the guy that tracked that. Cassidy. Yeah.

That said, no, the one that said. Oh, the other guy. Yeah.

The one that set the fire.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, it just comes back to the same thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'll sleep. I would have slept fine at night if people were in there.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, it was horrible. And every time this happens, it always gives me pause. I'm not going to stop doing what I do.

I'm not going to bow down to the angry few that want to actually harm people because, you know, that would that would take away from me living my life. I like my life. And if I'm going to expire in the process of doing what I love, then so be it.

I can't control that. I don't want it to happen. But, you know, I'm not going to just let that upset the way I live.

[Tommy Lavin]
No. And like you said before, there there are certainly countries where people of the Christian faith are persecuted. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, we would be persecuted in other countries, too.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, we would absolutely be persecuted in other countries. But, you know, if if that's the case, that's wrong in those other countries. And you you don't get to then say, well, we're persecuted over here.

So we're going to act the same way as the, you know, terrorists that are doing these horrible things over here. So we're just going to become terrorists over here. But we're not really terrorists because we followed the truth.

It's the same thing that the terrorist in the other country. That's the same thing they're saying. So, you know, if you're going down that rabbit hole, you're basically the same thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's I can go a lot of places with that false morality. But I won't.

But long story short, yet again, you know, people that matter were at risk because someone didn't exist or didn't think they should exist. Someone was aggrieved by their existence. And, you know, when it happens in places like Salem, and I believe that they talked about this every time that something's happened at headquarters, you know, think of the history of Salem.

Think of who was eradicated. They call them witches. But what they were are people that just didn't go along with the way people in power wanted them to be.

And it's the same thing that they're doing right now. People that have the ability to say things are saying very nasty, aggressive things and inciting violent actions.

[Tommy Lavin]
And using religion as their get out of jail free card, basically, you know, not literally get out of jail, because some of these people do wind up going to jail. Some of them do get the, what I tend to see quite often, what I almost jokingly now call the Christian discount when they're sentenced. Because, you know, he was just a really good Christian boy up until he tried to blow up the building.

Let's not let this one little thing mar their entire life. Don't want to destroy his reputation.

[Lilin Lavin]
We see that. It's also like the affluenza thing. You know, people of certain stature just don't have to face the same kind of criminal system that the rest of us do.

And it applies the same absolutely to religion in a lot of places.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's it's it's quite sad, because again, if we could just all fucking get along and again, I don't believe in the same thing Christians believe. That's OK. I don't intentionally go out looking for them to harm them or or to hate them or anything like that unless they do something to me.

You know, if I'm still not looking, you know, I'm not looking to do things. But again, if somebody comes at me, I'm going to give an answer. But, you know, it's it's I'm not out there looking for that.

I'm fine to coexist. I you know. OK, cool.

You you don't want to do this because it's against your religion. Cool. Have fun.

I'm not going to force you to do it. You know, that that's OK. But you can't stop me from my religious beliefs.

And as long as they're not illegal, you know, I should actually maybe take that back because of some of the court cases or some of the things that have become illegal lately that should be illegal.

[Lilin Lavin]
But they're not necessary. No, I mean, the thing that people kind of forget is that everyone's entitled to believe as they choose. And one of the things that you hear a lot is, well, Satanists are just inherently evil and Satan is just universally known to be evil and bad, which is not true.

There's thousands of Satanists that are good people doing wonderful things. I mean, productive to society, child outreach, animal outreach, you know, nature preservation. There just isn't something out there that that needs help that they're not interested in helping.

That doesn't mean they can always do it. But as a Satanist, I know you want to help with battered women. You want to help with abused children.

You want to help with abused animals. There's no shortage of things that people in the community want to accomplish. There is a shortage of funding to help us accomplish those things.

[Tommy Lavin]
There's a shortage of funding and there's a shortage of manpower as well, or people, I should say. I don't really like that term, manpower. There's a shortage of people as well.

But again, we're not out looking to recruit because, again, that goes against what we believe in. We don't believe in prophesizing or going out and trying to convince people that they need to believe our way or else.

[Lilin Lavin]
And some people don't necessarily like it, but I feel obligated because of my position within a congregation, which is part of leadership. There's a few of us that are part of leadership. But for me, I've always felt like if someone comes to me and says, I'm really interested in Satanism, I'll give them all the information they want.

And if they tell me, I'm really conflicted because I still feel like I align so much with Christianity, but I'm curious about these things and I'd like to be involved. And I said, well, you can be an ally. You can come and hang out with us and do game nights and things like that.

But if you're conflicted, then I strongly urge you to go out and seek healthier environments to explore that. And if you really don't align with it after you take that time to do it, then by all means, we're happy to talk to you, but don't try to force yourself into something if it's not who you are. And I feel very obligated to that.

And I do often try to find faith leaders in other belief systems to get to know because I would like to know, is this a safe place where people that aren't sure who they are can go and talk to people and sort that out?

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. Sane, safe, you know, safe, sane faith leaders that maybe they don't feel like they align with something because it was such a violent or hateful sort of environment that they were in, and that would be understanding for a person to want to leave. But, you know, again, maybe they just needed a safer environment.

And that's OK, too. Like you said, you know, we don't we don't need people to be Satanists to hang out or be allies. If they want to be a Satanist and they're curious about studying it, then, yeah, we'll absolutely give them the information that they want.

But it is a bit of a self-exploration.

[Lilin Lavin]
Darrell Bock You have to come to it on your own. It has to be your decision to seek it out and explore it. Honestly, I feel like that should be how religion is.

The information should be there and people should be willing to have discussions with people. But, you know, it shouldn't be something that's mandated. If you're going to share diverse religious beliefs and give people a taste of different ideologies as just kind of a conversation in a class or something like that, great, but represent them all correctly and give people the opportunity to have curiosity and point them to people who can help answer questions.

[Tommy Lavin]
Sane Yeah, I mean, and if somebody comes up and asks me about Satanism because I'm wearing a Hail Satan shirt or a Satanic Temple shirt or something like that, then, you know, I'll answer their questions. And again, as long as they're doing it in a constructive, peaceful way where they're truly interested, the questions are valid. You know, they're not…

Darrell Bock Well, they're not trolling. Sane They're not trolling or whatnot. You know, when it goes down to why do you wear black?

[Lilin Lavin]
No, that was always… It's so weird when people do that. We had some really great folks at that particular event.

I know our friend Enots was there and really good at having a conversation. But the people that came up to us and started asking these conversations at the pagan market where it happened, they were not interested in a conversation. They were trying to be aggressive and assertive.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock They were definitely looking for a fight. Darrell Bock And you can tell when a group of guys like that is walking, you know, you know when people are looking for a fight. They have a certain body posture.

They just exude this sort of, I'm waiting for somebody to do something.

[Lilin Lavin]
Sane I think they ended up admitting that later on.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, yeah. And oftentimes, we have to wind up de-escalating a situation, which, you know, if you ask somebody off the street, they would probably think it was the exact opposite. Like, oh my gosh, the Satanists are doing all these bad things.

And then these nice Christians come in and they de-escalate. It's actually quite the opposite. You know, it's normally we're de-escalating something while people are yelling horrible things, making threats.

Sane That's not to say we handle every situation perfectly. I'm certain that we don't. I know I've, you know, let a few words slip when somebody's…

[Lilin Lavin]
Sane It's frustrating and it's difficult because it shouldn't be wrong to exist someplace. And people shouldn't just walk up and challenge you just for existing, you know, but we all know shoulds are not realistic. So, you know, it would just be preferable if people could understand we have every right to do things.

And if we're doing something wrong, confront us, please. And but wrong is one of those subjective terms, right? So…

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree on things like if we were murdering people, if we were raping people, if we were, you know, doing stuff with children or stuff like all that's wrong, but that's all against Satanism. I mean, that's against our tenets. It's against, you know, you know, other types of Satan.

It's against the rules. It's, you know, so it's not, it's just not tolerated in the Satanic community.

[Lilin Lavin]
Chris Yeah, does that mean that people don't do bad things in Satanism? Probably not. No, I've been fortunate enough not to directly have to deal with that kind of stuff.

However, if I were put in that situation, that person would no longer talk about excommunication. They wouldn't be out fast enough for me.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. We're not going to protect them. We're not going to give them any sort of, oh, you had a bad day or, you know, there's not the forgiveness, get out of jail free card that you have in some other religions where when you do bad things, they just feel compelled to let you back in, then let the lion or the fox back into the hen house because, oh, well, we forgive.

And that's just not the way that works in Satanism. You know, if you are, if you're doing bad things, you're going to have your ass kicked to the curb, you know, and likely the police, yeah, the police called it.

[Lilin Lavin]
And everything within my power, depending on what you've done. Yep. I'm going to ensure that you.

[Tommy Lavin]
That you are no longer a threat.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or, yeah, and definitely not associated. I'll be very clear about that. So, you know, fortunately, like I said, I think we just do a really good job around in general of just not associating with that kind of folks and trying to be very cognizant of the kind of people that are interested, because, you know, again, as a person involved in leadership, you have an obligation to look out for people that are in your congregation.

It's just something you're obligated to do.

[Tommy Lavin]
And this is that I would say this event kind of highlights one of our podcasts we did earlier, you know, a few podcasts ago where we talked about people using Satanism, and if they were public with their name or if they were not. And I would say this kind of highlights the reason why when people come into Satanism, a lot of times for the first time, we have to almost, you know, educate them and be like, hey, you really need to think about, do you want your real name out there public? Because there are some there are some, you know, sick, violent, horrible people in the world.

[Lilin Lavin]
We had a good discussion with the Satanic Baker recently that went into their choice on not using Satanims or pseudonyms, and their reasoning behind it was very sensible. And I respect them immensely for their choice. And then people like myself, who enjoys doing things publicly, who very much likes to be out there speaking up and doing what I feel compelled to do, I would prefer to be able to use my legal name, but I have a full on family to think of and a community to think of.

And I live in a state with a lot of extreme minded people. So unfortunately, it just doesn't lend itself to that.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'd love to just be able to be out with my real name and just use it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Kirsten Blum Oh, yeah. I mean, how many pastors are condemned for being, you know, pastor so and so, and the whole world knows who they are, and people are happy to run into them in the store and, you know.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Or they don't get fired from their job or, you know, things like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Kirsten Blum You're a good salt of the earth person, which, you know, it's so frustrating to be in a religion where you're just condemned automatically by most people. Darrell Bock Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And even sometimes other parts of other people within the religious community that you're a part of, you know. And so I just think it's, you know, yes, we have a right to exist. We have a right to have a building.

We have a right to gather. We have a right to be in public. We have a right to religious displays.

Yeah, we have a right to do anything that any other religion has a legal right to do in the United States. And I have to preface that with this is, you know, the United States.

[Lilin Lavin]
Kirsten Blum And there are other countries with different rules and laws. And I know that we have Satanic groups within a lot of those other places, and they have to know those laws. So it's really important to be aware of your local laws.

And city to city, state to state, there's nuances that people should always be aware of, especially when it comes to protest and to displays and all those rights. It's very important. But, you know, all this to say, every time that they attack things, whether it's a tree in Wisconsin, because they think that it's egregious, whether it's a, you know, Baphomet statue that people worked really hard on putting together for a pluralistic display in a state capital in Iowa.

Or if it's the headquarters, that is a really cool art gallery that provides, you know, a bed and breakfast space that invites people to come in and do crafting events that, you know, is just a place existing. Dr. Dan Jones Or marriages. I mean, there's people get married there.

Kirsten Blum Yeah, they do a lot of really cool events. I mean, so I get it. Don't like it.

Don't go there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Dan Jones You don't have to. Yeah, you don't. If you don't like the, you know, if you don't like Satanism, that's fine.

Nobody's forcing you to go into that. We're not even trying to get you to go into there. We're not handing out pamphlets saying, hey, come join our whatever it is we're doing this night.

You know, be a part of this. Bring your family and your kids. That's not the way that Satanism works.

And we're not out there in the community recruiting people. So, you know, and even if we were, we would have that right.

[Lilin Lavin]
Kirsten Blum Yeah, I mean, we definitely do public events, which is a lot of fun. We follow all the same laws and rules as anybody else. And we let people come up to us with curiosity and questions.

And that's the way that it works. And maybe you never seen those people again, which is fine. Or maybe they just come and hang out because they thought you were interesting and they want to learn more, which is also fine.

So, I mean, granted, it's not everyone's cup of tea. And there's a lot of things that come with it. It's difficult to have that conversation with interested people who are new to Satanism, why you have to use Satanisms, why safety is so important, why you don't just go places with people that you meet.

You know, there's a lot of safety precautions. And I don't want to scare people. I don't want to instill unnecessary fear.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock No, no. But it's an important subject to talk about, especially given the current environment and some of the things we've talked about, even with Lucian on here, you know, when we're talking about trying to make Satanism illegal. You know, imagine if the religion is deemed illegal and then somebody does something like this.

Well, then the hate crime part's off the table, you know, and do we even have rights to defend ourselves or anything like that? So, you know, again, we're a legal religion. We have every single right.

This shouldn't be hard for people to understand unless you're part of an extreme radical religion that believes everybody else is wrong. And only you deserve to exist. And only you and people like you deserve to exist.

And those are a threat. They're a threat to our society.

[Lilin Lavin]
Cynthia Morrison And it's so silly because, I mean, I have a very dear friend and we'll visit historical places, and sometimes they include religious sites. And never once have I said, you know, I just absolutely hate this stupid religion. I'm going to destroy this thing because I don't feel that way.

I just find it very interesting, the history of religion. Do I agree with all the things that have been done in the name of religion? Absolutely not.

I find a lot of it abhorrent and despicable. But there's also a lot of interest in how it evolved and why it evolved and the way it affects people. So, you know, as someone that represents a religion, I think it's important to understand other religions and other people who are religious.

[Tommy Lavin]
And so, you know, why do they believe certain ways, you know, certain things? You know, it's an interesting psychiatric or psychological exercise to, you know, kind of go through. But again, you know, like you said, I've never walked into a Hindu temple and been like, wow, you know what?

I think I should destroy some of these statues because I don't agree with them. You know, I don't believe that there's any gods. And so these are insulting to me.

And I think I should destroy it.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was the opposite. I went there and it was amazing to me. They change their clothes.

They give them baths. They have nap time. They get.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, they have little nap time. I want to be a Hindu God.

[Lilin Lavin]
Seriously, I have multiple throughout the day nap.

[Tommy Lavin]
Seriously, I get. Yeah, you get naps. You get fed.

They bathe you. They give you new clothes. If like any of this shit is real.

Yeah, I want to be a Hindu God. I'm going to come back and be like because they're like cats in that way. You know, it's kind of.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, yeah, I want romanticism. There's negatives and positives to all of it. But it's amazing to me to sit down with people that truly have a passion for something and just hear what makes them happy, excited, why they love it so much.

And I learn a lot. And so I don't understand why people get so angry other than this is what they have entrenched in their brain and they won't let it go. They were just automatically horrible people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And and again, it's I think in part it's fear. You know, it's fear of us.

It's fear that maybe their children will at some point run into something and be like, oh, and drawn away to the devil. I mean, you know, there was that other article about a girl that got killed during an exorcism by her parents. We can cover that another time.

But seriously, this that level of fear that is instilled in in people when they become that indoctrinated that they are willing to kill other people, even kill their own family members, their own children, you know, that everyone needs to be aware of what indoctrination is and how unfortunately easy it is to become indoctrinated.

[Lilin Lavin]
Even within any belief system, it's important for you to be aware of what people are saying, how they're using that belief system, whether or not they're like trending into a dangerous territory and asking strange things or separating people from others and all the other telltale signs of cult-like behavior, because it happens in just about every type of belief system. There's people that are extremists that take advantage of the mentality of a lot of these groups, and they use it for their own personal, selfish self-interest. And it harms people.

So, you know, you're obligated, even as a Satanist, to be aware of what other satanic community members are doing, what they're doing with that belief system, how they're utilizing it, and if they're doing things that are questionable, how they're representing it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, they're, you know, the things like you said, the things that they're doing, especially if those things are public. Oh, yeah. You know, the aspects that they might say they publicly support or not.

These are all things that, especially if you're in any sort of a ministerial or leadership position, you know, you need to be aware of what other people.

[Lilin Lavin]
The age-old thing, right? If you see something, say something.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, seriously.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, it happens, and it can sneak up on you where you find yourself in a position that you didn't expect or plan to be in. And that's why, you know, often when we have conversations with people, especially interested in hunting for a new home, religiously speaking, you'll run into people that are curious, and they're trying to figure out where they align and find a group that they feel is like home. And always, I stop them and say, you know, if people ask you to separate or to give up things or to do other very concerning behaviors, you know, please stop and take some time out to reevaluate things.

Don't just go with it because you feel like it's, you know.

[Tommy Lavin]
An obligation. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or something like that. So it's so easy to fall into these things. And I think at the root of it, most people just want easy answers and easy solutions to difficult problems.

And life can be very difficult and overwhelming. And that's normal.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I think they want easy answers. I think they're afraid every, you know, most everybody's afraid of death. I mean, I don't want to die, you know, and so they, you know, they add certain things to it so that it doesn't seem like that's actually the end.

And that's fine if that's what they need to do in order to get through life. If they need to believe that they will see their parents or if they lost a child, that they'll see their child or something like that again to get their life. That's fine.

But when you then take that and start becoming violent towards other people that don't believe the same thing, you have crossed a line and you have crossed the line now into a domestic terrorist. I mean, there's really no other way.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or a religious extremist, if you're doing it for religious purposes, you know, and that's not really something that our country is supposed to be doing. We're not supposed to be those people. I mean, it shouldn't be happening anywhere to anybody.

But, you know, especially when you live in a place that is built on pluralism, it's built on diversity.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's built into our constitution, you know, it should be, you know, especially from groups of people that love to quote the constitution for other parts.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I'm convinced that way too many people in government do not understand what they're even supposed to be doing or what they represent.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, no, I mean, I get told the Bill of Rights, all sorts of Declaration of Independence. Yeah, but we have the Constitution.

[Lilin Lavin]
So those other pieces of paper, you want to bring a weird, you know, historical documents. We can talk about the Treaty of Tripoli. That's fine.

But no, it gets weird because, I mean, even earlier, you know, you're having a discussion or you're seeing people talk and someone says, you know, they're trying to add people that are migrating to this country into the census. Dingus, they've been doing that since like 1790. So this is not new.

You know, just misinformation, disinformation, propaganda. And they bring this up. They, I don't mean to generalize or other people, individuals bring this up from more extremist groups.

I would just call it as it is. Mostly Christian nationalists in America. I mean, historically, there's been aggressive groups like this that do these things for whatever reason.

It's usually to dissuade people from joining in with a different group or from them losing people to a different group. So it's a tactical decision. It is.

But it's still awful. You know, if you can't do it based on your own merits, then don't lie to people. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, you know, when I'm talking online, even when I'm talking on here, I use the term Christian nationalists because I do believe there are actually good Christians. And I want to make a distinction between the two. Now, when I say good Christians, that doesn't mean I believe in what they say.

I'm not adopting their theology or anything like that. But I do believe and I've run into play. I've had plenty of Christians online say, what you're saying makes sense.

And what these people are doing is wrong. And they will engage with me. They'll ask me questions.

I'll answer their questions. And all of a sudden, they're like, this makes sense. You know, now they're not looking to become a Satanist, but they're happy with their Christian belief.

But in a sense, they've become an ally because they're like, you're not doing anything wrong. You know, you have the same freedom that I have, or you're supposed to. And the way these other people are acting is wrong.

And then they start to speak out against Christian nationalism. And that's when I'm like, we need more of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Every time we've made a massive change in our country and other countries have done the same, it's because people put aside their differences and they work together for what was best for the community as a whole. And whether or not we have religious differences, and we do. You know, I can respect that you have your things, and I'm going to support your right to have them.

I just ask you to do the same exact thing for me. You know? Darrell Bock And part of that includes not throwing pipe bombs.

Cristina Curp On our headquarters, front steps. Darrell Bock On our headquarters, or trying to catch it Cristina Curp And you could literally have killed people. People are in that building.

We have a right to a building. We shouldn't have to be afraid. I get a desire to create a nice location.

I've thought about it several times. And I'd like to have a community garden and do a lot of really cool stuff.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Oh, you bet your ass if we won the lottery.

[Lilin Lavin]
Cristina Curp Yeah, but then you have to think about, I'd need, you know, a certain kind of fence.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock You'd bet your ass. We would probably try and put another building here in Texas. And we would learn from the mistakes of the people in the past.

[Lilin Lavin]
Cristina Curp But the point of the matter is that people would be like, they would intentionally go out of their way to try and destroy it. And that's what's so upsetting. There's hundreds of really cool religious buildings all over the United States, very old buildings with history.

We should be able to have that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, I mean, there is no shortage. Especially if you're in Texas, there is no shortage of a church. There's about one or two on every corner.

[Lilin Lavin]
Cristina Curp You could go to some really cool, I mean, in New England and just different areas of the country that are older, have some really cool historical locations. And some of them are religious buildings. There's places, you know, here in Texas that have a varied history that were forts and churches.

There's a lot of really cool things to see. I'm not at all bothered by that. There's painted churches all throughout.

A very good friend of mine loves painted churches. So one of the things we do is we'll often go visit. When we go on trips, we see these different churches, and they're really cool.

Darrell Bock But that doesn't mean you're staying for the sermon or adopting them. Cristina Curp Nor would I ever go in and enter the building when people have a service or something that's just disrespectful. But a lot of these places are historic.

And you can go and observe them. And it's really cool. And there's tons of different kind of belief systems that have come through the United States.

And there's lots of different buildings and locations that have that significance. And you learn a ton. And so, you know, we should be able to have the same rich history as a religion.

And our headquarters are our start of that for us. Darrell Bock Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Satanists shouldn't have to hide in the corner. We should be free to have our own buildings. We should be free to gather where we like, as long as it's, you know, legal, especially if it's our own building.

We're not involving anybody else in it. You know, we should be free to do that. Because that's what every other religion is free to do.

[Lilin Lavin]
And, yeah, you know, Lucia himself pretty much resigned that he'll just never have a life now. And that's so disheartening to me, because the worst thing he did was try to create something nice for people to be able to enjoy to stand up to maintain religious freedom, maintain plurality, maintain rights for individuals. I mean, if that's the worst thing you ever do with your life, I mean, oh, my gosh, seriously, but you'll never be able to have a normal life ever.

No, probably not. You know, and a lot of other very outspoken Satanists. It's the same for them.

They just won't be. We've no people that have had people show up with guns to their homes. For what?

[Tommy Lavin]
Because they were outspoken Satanists, you know. And again, you know, so that's where what we discussed before, you know, whether you actually put your full identity out there or not. And it's also another reason why I truly believe for a Satanist to dox another Satanist is one of the it is it is so egregious.

And it is one of those just unforgivable things, because, you know, you already know what what could follow, you know, the harm that can be done.

[Lilin Lavin]
You can't in this country be a teacher or a doctor or a nurse or a lot of these things and a Satanist without repercussions. That's just an unfortunate fact. There's a lot of people that are in those fields that are actual Satanists.

There's movie, there's so many actors, artists, lots and lots of people. And some of them just can't be public because it will ruin their lives.

[Tommy Lavin]
I think actors could probably get a pass in 2024, but maybe not. But yeah, you're right. You know, teachers, there's there's no way, you know, I mean, even if the school tried to be OK with it, you know, the parents would fucking revolt and the school would just have to give in to the pressure to say, OK, I'm going to have to let you go.

[Lilin Lavin]
We can't even be OK with books. Yes. Seriously.

I mean, we've been. Bridgette's Erebusia is a banned book, folks. Look up that book.

That doesn't make any sense to me. It covers the difficulties of emotionally and psychologically dealing with death as a child.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that's that's just something I have.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's some curse words in it. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, I had to deal with death as a child of one of my friends, you know, and yeah, it's something that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Look, we live in a country where you've already happened.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Don't tell me kids don't need these kind of books.

[Tommy Lavin]
And don't tell me kids at this point don't understand that they are at risk going to school.

[Lilin Lavin]
I know our children have told us our children have told you before that the generational trauma that you've now inflicted on them because of gun drills.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that she has said before there's sometimes she goes into school and she's not sure she will see you after school.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I had a little heart attack this week because, you know, my kid called and it was during passing period. So it was very loud. People are making a lot of noise and she's like, mom.

And then it got really quiet and I freaked out and just like, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. Sorry that the reception is really bad.

You know, it was a thing about testing and not having a need to be in school the rest of the day. But it scared the crap out of me for a hot minute that something horrible happened and that's the world we live in. So don't tell me that these things don't make sense.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, don't tell me that kids don't understand it. I mean, they're stupefying their kids in a sense. They're making them seem like they don't understand things that they actually do.

And that's a problem with a lot of parents is they treat their kids like they're idiots. And that's a whole different subject.

[Lilin Lavin]
But it all comes down to the same thing. When you don't encourage critical thinking, when you don't encourage people to explore, when you just narrow down their choices in life and their ability to experience difference and other people, you end up with extremists. And extremists do really horrible things because they've been taught their whole life it's the only way to live.

And if they really want to honor what it is that they believe, then they'll do these really stupid things. And it's awful. You really, you know.

[Tommy Lavin]
And they actually, I mean, there are plenty of these extremist evangelical churches that they train their people to be, quote, warriors of God, to wear the armor. And they're not talking like metaphorically. I mean, they're actually practicing real, true, violent drills.

And that shit, you know, I mean, that's scary shit. And it's like, that has no place in religion in a pluralistic society. I mean, I'm sorry, your religion is not any more special than anyone else's.

It could be to you. And that's fine. But it's not in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the law and all of that sort of stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, is it fine, though? Because when you think about what it is that you get from being involved in church, let's just say you're, you know, a person that's Christian, let's say, for example, and you find joy in it, you find community in it, you're happy, you enjoy it, you understand that feeling. And you embrace it.

It's important to your life. How do you look at other people doing the same thing, but differently and just think, oh, I hate them?

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. John Aucott Well, but you're told. I mean, that's part of these religions that everybody else is wrong. They're right.

But you can't see, it doesn't matter. They're wrong. You're right.

Everybody else is wrong. And as part of that, you're supposed to save all of these other people. So, you know, and again, we've seen this type of religious violence in other places, abortion clinics being blown up and stuff like that.

You know, so this isn't like a one off thing. This isn't a, oh, it was just this one time. Why are y'all getting all worked up about it?

Why are you really this pissed off about it? It's because it's a reoccurring fucking event that keeps happening.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then you'll hear the age old, you brought it on yourself. Yeah, that it's right up there with, you know, it's what they wore that did it. No.

Yeah. Existing is not a reason for us to be attacked. Being contrary to what you believe should exist is not a reason to attack somebody.

[Tommy Lavin]
What you wore is not a reason to be attacked. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's this sort of, I'm not going to take responsibility because this person had something on and it created emotions in me that I couldn't control. Or this person is part of a religion that created emotions in me that I couldn't control.

All comes back to, I couldn't control. That's your issue that you need to work.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's like the extremist group that came to the pagan event. They actually expressed dismay at the fact that nobody confronted them. That was a horrible thing for them.

Nobody would confront them. They walked all over the place. They saw all these horrible to them things, but not one person confronted them.

And they gave them wide space. A few people actually made those comments on social media. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And they thought that it was because they were big, bad and mean and all of that sort of stuff. And they had the protection of Jesus around them like a bobble that was pushing people.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, it's because these are good people that have no desire to fight with you and start problems unnecessarily.

[Tommy Lavin]
People didn't bother you because you look like a fucking asshole and you had argument confrontation written all over your face. So people are like, I'm not going to engage with that person. They're obviously here for trouble.

Maybe we're more discerning, you know, hey, hey, go, go look in your book of gifts. Maybe we're more discerning than you are when it comes to shit like this. But yeah, it's not hard.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think it's because a lot of people in alternate beliefs have been treated pretty poorly and by people so they can kind of see it. But that's just, you know, that's just it. And I guess that's I was really upset that this happened again, that people that matter to me is life was threatened again.

And, you know, I don't know the motivation behind it because I don't think they've caught it. But the person that did it yet. But I bet you money I can guarantee I could take a guess.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'll put a C note on it. I mean, seriously, I guarantee you I know the reason why and what's behind it and all that sort of shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I definitely blame a segment of our population that keeps pushing a bunch of really gross nonsense.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, yes. Yes, I definitely blame the segment. I blame the political environment that that's caused and the people that are in that political environment that are pushing actively pushing for the U.S. to become a theocracy or pushing the notion that the U.S. is a Christian nation. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Newsflash, it's not.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's not. That's wrong. Sorry, you've been told that.

But, you know, it's right up there with the earth is flat. People tell people that, too. You should actually read and look into history, you know, so.

But yeah, I don't know. You know, I think I think I got it out of my system. Did you?

I think so. I really did. I need to when this came through, I was like, we have to talk about this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, it pissed me off because every time something like this happens, it's horrible and you second guess everything, you know.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, yeah. And the problem is, is eventually it's going to something's going to happen because eventually what's the saying? A broken clock's right twice a day.

A blind dog finds a stick. Eventually something bad is going to happen.

[Lilin Lavin]
I never second guess being a Satanist. I never second guess doing these things. But I second guess the people around me.

I second guess the trust I put in people around me. I second guess, you know, the way that I do certain things. So, I mean, I'm never going to not be who I am.

I'm never going to not believe what I believe. But I'm definitely going to distrust more and more people as they keep showing me the awful things that they want to do, not have to do, choose to do. Choose to do of their own.

Yeah. So, you know, don't be those people. Think about what it is that you enjoy about whatever it is that you hold dear in your life and recognize that that's what people are getting out of Satanism as well.

And just respect that fact and have actual care and compassion for your fellow man.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes. And by the way, we do have ethics and morals. And if the only thing keeping you from doing all these horrible things is that you've got a book there telling you that you're going to burn in internal damnation if you do these bad things, and that's the only thing stopping you, you have a deeper problem.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And I'm going to be very honest. There's no perfect belief system.

There's no perfect person. And the Bible, like it or not, has flaws in its entirety all throughout it that actually call for harm. So you have morally objectionable issues in it.

If you choose to be a moral person, you take good parts of that book and to weave it into your actual life and do good and live a certain way that's positive. Great. You know, I'm glad for that.

But let's not pretend that these things are morally perfect or morally good and it just creates a perfect person. There's no such thing. Yeah, I agree with that.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I think with that, again, since I got it out of my system, I'm going to be selfish. I got it out of my system. But I do think this needs to continue to be talked about.

I think we need to continue to push on law enforcement to make sure that these are treated as hate crimes. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Because they are. And domestic terrorism, we're applicable. And I say, you know, to all of you listeners out there, if you see things that are going on, don't be afraid to write your legislators.

Don't be afraid to push back against things you know are wrong when it comes to laws that are discriminating intentionally against your beliefs. Don't sit back when it's a school that's trying to push things that are religiously extreme and Christian nationalist leaning to take away your kids' rights and educational future. So we all have the same capabilities.

There's different levels. Obviously, when you see these kind of things happen, it scares people from doing things. You don't have to go out and do things yourself.

You can talk to people in your area and see if they'd be willing to do it, if they'd be willing to help you. Or you can work with, as we brought up before, the Satanic Representation Committee is out there willing to just have you come in and help write things, help look things up, help do research, help in any way possible to do things behind the scenes where you feel more comfortable.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I will fall back on inaction is still action. So you making a conscious choice not to do something is inaction, and that's okay. Not everybody needs to do something, but if you use that as the excuse that Satanists shouldn't get involved in this, Satanists shouldn't do this, your inaction is inaction in a sense.

So not even in a sense. Your inaction is inaction. You're just choosing a different path.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I'm going to totally maul this, but I believe that someone once said that the only thing needed for horrible things to happen is for good people to stand by and do nothing. And so when you see something going on, do something about it, whether that's directly doing something within safety or writing letters, writing op-eds, getting out there and saying things publicly, making noise in a respectable, legally appropriate manner.

[Tommy Lavin]
Or identifying the person. Obviously, if somebody's got a weapon and they're going to a place, do not try and intercede. Do not try and put your life in danger, but you can at least identify the person.

[Lilin Lavin]
And if you don't feel comfortable, reach out to people like us and we'll point it to the right direction and leave you anonymous. There's plenty of people online that do that same thing. I believe Tizzy Ant is one of the people that you can tell him things and send him information.

He'll keep you anonymous. So there's avenues. If you know something's going on, do something about it and do the right thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
And realize there are fucking cameras everywhere. You've got a camera in your pocket. There's fucking cameras on every fucking other doorbell.

[Lilin Lavin]
When it comes to this person that threw this device on the porch of headquarters in Salem, somebody knows who they are.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I'm sure, I mean, they've got DNA evidence, I'm sure, left behind, you know, they'll figure out who it is. And again, I want to make sure law enforcement treats this as it should be a hate crime and a domestic terrorist event. And that's what needs to happen because they need to be treated the exact same as if we did something to them.

Or if, you know, the biggest thing that Christian Jews go off of was, you know, they hung the Muslim religion out there for the longest time. Well, you're doing the same thing. You know, you're doing the same thing as the extremist over there.

And so you should get the same exact punishment, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But power's in your hands, folks. Just do something with it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, all right. Well, again, I think we can wrap on that one.

Definitely. Definitely this time, for sure. For sure.

Before I say something else.

[Lilin Lavin]
So I'm going to wish you a good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you might and a hearty Hail Satan to all of you out there. Thank you for listening. And we look forward to talking to you again next week.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hail Satan.