Ep.41: The Art of Ritual - The Diversity & Significance of Rituals in Satanism

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.41: The Art of Ritual - The Diversity & Significance of Rituals in Satanism

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome dear listeners to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello, welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So tonight we are going to be talking a little bit about rituals. Kind of take a bit of a turn off of some of the stuff going around that we talk about on a regular basis and really focus on something that is pretty key to Satanism.

And I would argue key to just about every religion out there is ritual, in some way, shape or form.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. You'll hear a lot of people talk about, and I think I've heard it more over the I don't know, since December, at least, where a lot of people want to talk about whether or not Satanism is a real valid religion, especially as it pertains to the satanic temple. And ritual, the fact that we have ritual practice, I think is a very important point to really state that we are, in fact, a religion, we have deeply held religious beliefs, we have community, we have ceremony.

So there's a lot of things that really differentiate us from other organizations. And I think that our ritual practice is definitely one of them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the argument that we're not a real religion, a lot of the people making those arguments are because we're non-theistic. But to do a ritual, you don't have to believe in a deity.

Most rituals, at least to me and to a lot of Satanists that I know, they're psychodrama. It's something for you to work through in some way, shape, or form. And a ritual is a way to sort of physically and mentally work through that, almost like you're putting on a play.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think when I was younger, one of the things I actually liked about when I would go with my grandmother to Catholic church is it was incredibly ritualistic. The moment that you hit the door, you'd be just inundated by smells and sights and textures and actions that would just very much bring you to a place where you felt that it was special. And just those things kind of set it apart from just your everyday life.

So you're experiencing and you're immersed in something that actually transforms the world around you into something else and allows you to go to a place where you can experience things differently. And I think for me personally, as a minister, I've enjoyed doing ritual with people, especially when it comes to the public rituals that we do, like the unbaptism, I think is the one we do the most with public, is just the wonderful things to see. We've set up a really good ritual, us and all the ministers of our congregation have worked out a really nice rhythm with that.

And it's really wonderful. Folks will come up, so we have a gong that we ring. Everybody knows, we warn people they'll come up and say, are you guys doing unbaptisms?

You'll know when you hear the gong, you can hear it everywhere and you can. And so we ring that and then people will come up. Then we ask them, are you here to be part of an unbaptism?

And then if you are, feel free to line up. If you just want to watch, just move over to the side. Of course, because it happens almost every time, we let people know, are you comfortable with people filming?

If not, you can step out and then wait and we can do something more private later, because you have to consider who's around and what's happening. Not everyone wants these things filmed. Some people specifically said that they want it filmed and want to remember it.

So just being aware of the people around you and being cognizant of their needs, because you're there as a minister, you're not there to, it's not for you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. It's for everybody else at that time, at least for the unbaptism ritual. That is something that is for the people who are going through the ritual.

And we have a lot of people come up and they ask us about it, because we do our unbaptisms at public venues, if we're at the pagan market or something like that, where there's a lot of people walking around. Like you said, people will come up because they've sort of come to expect it now, in a sense, and they'll ask us, hey, are y'all doing unbaptisms today? And it really is for anybody who has been through some sort of religious trauma or something like that, that they feel like they just need to be released from that mentally.

[Lilin Lavin]
It certainly can be people. I mean, a lot of people have religious trauma and there's a lot of things that people are working through, especially when they've come to a place where they're no longer feeling that they're in line with religion. And I think a sad byproduct of today, where you have even Christians that feel alienated by their beliefs, and they're struggling to understand where they fit in.

Not that they want to become Satanists, but they want to be able to kind of dictate their own terms on how they move forward in life. So we've had people that are not Satanists, that just want to be able to kind of set out on their own journey as an adult and decide what their religion looks like. And we'll sit down and talk with people beforehand.

And I've definitely told people, if after this you want to go and get baptized, because you feel like you're ready to do that on your own volition, and you have your own set of ways that you want to do that, feel free. I'm never going to tell you what to do. It's not a ritual to involve in your spiritual life, and you're in that way.

We're not looking to take a soul and do things with it, or any of the stuff that you hear.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you're not trading your soul. We don't have like, you know, Satan isn't coming up and actually like removing something. This is something for them.

And like you said, it is because so many people are baptized, or christened, or you know, whatever. They've had religion forced and thrust upon them when they were a child, and were not able to actually make that decision on their own. And we've had some people tell us that that was the part that really upset them.

It's not necessarily that the religion upset them. It was that they felt like they didn't have a choice. So going back to what you said, you know, there are people that could theoretically come over, do an unbaptism ritual, and then later on at some point say, okay, now I want to get baptized in Christianity, but I'm doing this of my own volition.

You know, I'm making this choice myself. Nobody's forcing it on me. And you know, with that, I'm like, cool.

You know, if that's what you needed, and that's what you wanted, I'm glad we could help be a part of that journey, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
And the great thing is, it doesn't have to be about renouncing any type of faith that you may have been associated with before. There's plenty of people that have come up that are transitioning, for example. And they feel like a lot of negative things have been thrown at them and pushed on them the way that people feel like they should exist.

And that's another way to kind of say, no, I get to dictate who I am, I get to move forward as I choose. And so it's a really good way to psychologically help people to breach barriers that have been put on them by religion or society, and just help break those barriers. And it is something you see an actual change in people when they go through the ritual.

Afterwards, they'll often ask for a hug. They're very emotional. Some people cry.

Yeah, I mean, it's a really wonderful way to just help a person kind of overcome a hurdle that they're dealing with a challenge that they've been struggling with a way to help actually feel that they've made a step forward in a way that they don't feel that they could have before. And my job in that when I'm facilitating those is just to listen, to ask questions to ensure that I'm honoring that individual's journey, whatever it is they're trying to accomplish in that moment, and to be present with them as they experience that, whatever that is that they needed in that moment to just be there with them, and to respond to whatever it is that I can do to help them in that moment to feel fulfilled, that they've actually been able to make that move and start on that journey. And the really good thing about ritual, regardless of if you're a Satanist, or wherever you're coming from, is that when it comes to practice, it's kind of a foisting off place. And then you have to kind of follow that up, because you will naturally feel a lot of endorphins.

These are normal things that come along with ritual. And then now it's your job to kind of keep that going by continuing that momentum.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I would argue, you know, when people go to church on Sunday, like you mentioned Catholic Church, but I would even say, you know, Christian Church, any sort of church, but you go to church, and you watch a whole group of people doing something, they're technically doing a ritual. They'll call it praying, they'll call it worshiping or whatnot.

It's really a ritual. You know, it's, it's ritualized, it follows the same sort of thing, you look around, there's a whole bunch of people that all had their hands up, or, you know, something like that. You know, and it's, it's very coordinated.

And, you know, and so, and Christians get really pissed when you tell them that they're, they're technically doing a ritual. And they're like, no, it's worship, it's prayer. But you know, I mean, but kind of back to what you were saying, it is important when you're doing a group ritual, and it's, you know, the unbaptism is a group ritual.

And again, a lot of times it's done with non Satanist, or people who are just starting to explore Satanism is, is within the ritual, we tell them, if at any point you're uncomfortable, you can stop, you can step out, nobody's gonna be angry at you or anything like that. This is your choice all the way through. And, you know, at the end, you're asking them to acknowledge certain things, and they're free to say yes or no.

You know, this is, again, it's a religion, it's a ritual for them. But just about anything can be turned into a religion. When you look at Satanism, Satanism, I mean, you've got destruction rituals.

Ritual, you mean ritual? Yeah. What did I say?

Turn into religion. Yeah, anything can be turned into ritual. You know, you have destruction rituals, which again, when you're ripping up the picture of somebody that's really pissed you off, they're not really, you're not really tearing their head off or anything like that.

You know, it is more of a psychological effect, a release for you, you know, for you to release that emotion, for you to take that emotion and put it out into the world and say, fuck this, I am done with this, and to let it go. And, you know, ritual, again, can be singular, you can do a ritual all by yourself. You can write your own ritual, you know, you don't have to use a pre-written ritual, you can write your own ritual, you can be all by yourself, or you can do it with a group.

It's really up to you and what you're looking to accomplish. And it can be, you know, sort of plain, have a couple candles and stuff, or it could almost be like a Broadway play where you've got costumes, and you've got a, I mean, when we did the Black Mass, yeah, the Black Mass, I mean, we had a whole stage, we had all sorts of stuff. And that was a really cool, fun ritual, because it was like you're in a play.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was, you know, it was, it was, yeah, everybody practiced, it was, it was a lot of fun. Yeah, I enjoy doing those. I mean, a ritual is just a set movement, set actions that you do in an order.

Really, that's all a ritual is. A wedding is a ritual. A funeral is a ritual.

Baptism is a ritual. These are all things that are ritualistic. But beyond that, cooking can be a ritual.

Bathing can be a ritual. Yeah. There are many things that we don't even think about that can be perceived as ritualistic.

And again, with Satanism, as we often say, it's very unique to each person, even when it comes to on baptisms. The on baptism that our congregation does shifts a bit from time to time, but it will be different from the Dallas congregation, or the Austin congregation, or anywhere that you go. Because you don't have to follow very specific prescribed rituals.

Each congregation often has their own unique rituals. And then you've got things like gender affirmation rituals, which we offer to individuals, regardless of their gender, is to allow them to decide who they are, and to help honor that. So we have tons of different ways that we honor ourselves, which as Satanists, it's the most important thing.

But we also honor each other in the performance of those rituals.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I remember, like you were saying, rituals can really be anything and they can be different. I remember when I was younger, sort of before there were all these chat rooms and everything, and you would go buy a ritual book, you would find that one magic ritual book, and it would be spelled out very, like, you can't deviate. And that's sort of more on the pagan side of things when I was looking at that.

But again, that's the difference between if all you have is a book, and you don't have anybody to talk to, and you think you have to follow this sort of really strict set of rules for it to work. Because again, at that point, it was more, you know, maybe there's a deity out there that I don't want to piss off or something when I'm doing it. Again, it was when I was younger and exploring some different pagan paths.

Whereas as a Satanist, I don't have to, I'm not pissing off any deity. I don't believe in any deity. So I am my own God, in a sense.

And so my ritual can be whatever I want, or whatever I need, really. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And some people need a set structure, because they feel that's how they can accomplish whatever it is they're doing. And that's fine, too. I know one of the first ritual books I ever picked up was a Golden Dawn book, actually.

And you're reading through some of these really intricate, I think there's like a rosy cross that Alistair Cowley has in there. And it's got, you know, diagrams and steps. And it's very elaborate.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, if you look at an old curly ritual, it's like, holy shit, what the fuck is going on?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, make sure you're facing the right direction. I mean, it all gets very, very, very detailed. But that's okay.

Again, if you're interested in doing something like that, and your goal is to have a certain experience, you know, the whole point is, do you get to that point? Do you have that experience? Are you accomplishing what you set out to accomplish?

And sometimes you don't know. Because it is, again, about changing how you think and feel and changing your environment psychologically. We're not actually expecting anything magically to change.

So through the changing of our environment, we can see change in ourselves. So when we put forth the effort and say, we're going to overcome, you know, this hurdle or this issue, or we're going to embrace this thing, or we're going to, you know, push our put all of our best wishes onto this one specific moment, or you whatever it is that you're doing, it's focusing all your intentions, and then trying to help accomplish whatever that goal is you're trying to do, whether it's help build confidence, whether it's to recognize changes you've made in your life, whether it's to overcome an addiction. And these are all things that we do through the practice of ritual.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I remember, I think one of the funnest rituals we ever did together, we did it together. And it was with a group, it was with a different group, we were in NTST at the time. But I think you know, the one I'm talking about, we had the Tesla coil.

We had the, what's the Star Trek music? The theremin? Yeah, the theremin.

And it just got more and more chaotic. As the ritual went on, it was like crazy, you know, it just, the tempo started going up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up. And then all of a sudden, it's like, boosh.

And you were just emotionally drained. At the end, it felt like you were drunk.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And that's the point is, again, you can do a lot and your brain, at least a lot of chemicals, endorphins are going all over the place. And it's to help whatever it is that you're trying to call.

I think there was a wall purchase knocked.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it was.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that one is fun, because you're really just building up to kind of setting your intentions to move forward into the year. And you're building up a lot of just emotion and all the things that you're wanting to accomplish and focusing really hard on what it is that you want to change or build or do. So you're building up this huge momentum.

And then you just send it out, thrust it out into the world.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's like you're, yeah, like you said, you're kind of like, if you think like a softball or something, you're like winding up and winding up and winding up and then whoosh, you know. But the important thing to realize about ritual is, is also, you have to follow up with things, you know, you can't just like, put this ritual out into the world that you're going to accomplish X, Y, and Z, or something like that. And then sit on your butt and do nothing and expect that the world's just going to do it for you.

That's not the way ritual works. Again, this is for you. It's for you to mentally prepare and to move you into whatever action it is that you're wanting to do, or whatever it is you're wanting to release, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
So if you're even into ritual, again, as a Satanist, that's not a prerequisite, you never have to engage in ritual practice at all. It's just a nice thing to do if you have curiosity about it. And I definitely recommend at least observing it just to see if you're curious, because I don't know if people have, what would you call it, the cinematic idea of what ritual is, you know, what they've told you ritual is.

And then it will be different from group to group. So again, we hang out with a lot of pagan folks, and they have very different rituals. Yes.

So I mean, I think observing different ones. And like I said, growing up, whether or not people want to accept it, you know, when the Catholic priest comes down with this, you know, everything going on, you know, that's ritualistic. So when you are your pastors up there and preparing his sermon and standing in front of everyone and reciting all that stuff out, that is a ritual.

[Tommy Lavin]
And yeah, I would actually say, you know, when if you're in evangelical church, and they're out there, and everybody's speaking in tongues and stuff like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
You don't even need to speak in tongues. I mean, the opening music time where everyone's really just energized and looking forward to just what's to come and enjoying each other's company is ritualistic. So absolutely, there's a lot of things even just coming together as a community can, you know, itself be ritualistic.

[Tommy Lavin]
Buddhists have ritual Hindu. I mean, you know, it's all there's time, you know, any religion that you're doing something is is a form of ritual.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, that reminds me, actually, there's a similar ritual that I know I've done that's like the mandala ritual, where you actually build something artistic, as part of just learning how to let go. And then the intention to make something really beautiful, intricate to then undo it. Yeah, which is really it's something good, I think, psychologically to to spend that time to give yourself time to just focus on something without the intention of it being permanent, or to sell it just to just focus on being there in that moment to enjoy it, and then to just let go of it.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I agree with you, you know, like you said, if you're a Satanist, there's not a prerequisite that you have to do ritual, you know, you touched on this before. And I would say, when we're talking to people that are new, or looking to come into the congregation, one of our questions we'll ask is, what, what are your interests in ritual? And we'll tell them, there's no wrong answer here.

You know, if you're not interested in ritual, that's okay, we just want to know. So if we're going to be doing ritual, you know, you might want to be involved. And, you know, and if we didn't know that, and we didn't tell you, because we just assumed you didn't, you might kind of feel like shit, you know, hey, why didn't y'all tell me?

Um, and it is a good idea, even if you you're not just to at least observe a group ritual, we did one in our backyard.

[Lilin Lavin]
So there's a nice example of what can be a fun thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I have to kind of set the scene. We live in a very conservative, suburban, suburban, most, mostly white, suburban, middle class, neighborhood, neighborhood, very quiet neighborhood, for the most part.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's the sort of neighborhood where the neighbors are often heard saying, it's such a quiet, respectable street. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And so we had probably about, and this was before COVID. So we had a larger congregation at the time. But you know, we had about 20, 30 people over.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was quite a few.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and probably closer to the 30. And we did the Pazuzu. Yeah, so kind of taken off of the exorcism.

[Lilin Lavin]
The symbology. So it's just a statue from the exorcist. But the whole point is, it's actually a spring renewal kind of thing where you're coming together, and you're just sort of like being thankful for things, being happy about things, looking forward to things, and just trying to set positive things.

[Tommy Lavin]
I meant by that, that might be where people have seen a Pazuzu is, if you've watched the exorcist, they like show a Pazuzu because obviously it's satanic, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's this weird statue off in the desert. It's that weird statue.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that's the Pazuzu. And so we had a whole bunch of people in our backyard, we're doing this Pazuzu ritual. And as everybody, as each person stepped up and, you know, did their part, they ended it with a Hail Satan.

Now, one Hail Satan from your backyard in a very suburban conservative neighborhood, maybe people won't notice that. But when you get 30 people that at different times yell Hail Satan, and then when it's all over, all 30 of them yell Hail Satan at once, kind of raises little eyebrows. I remember our neighbor was doing his lawnmower.

You could hear the lawnmower. All of a sudden, it stopped and it went quiet and you heard them go inside.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So that was kind of fun. But it was it was a lot of fun.

And people had a good time. And that's the point, you know, coming together as a community. And it's fun.

You're supporting one another. And I won't say that they're always lighthearted like that. That was meant to be lighthearted.

[Tommy Lavin]
It was.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, there's times where people go through difficult, traumatic things, anger inducing things. And we always try to be very constructive with all of our emotions as Satanists. You know, we are fully accountable for everything that we feel in the way that we choose to process those feelings is very important.

So I think one of the things that we do really well is to help harness the hard feelings. And you'll see that then in sometimes a destruction ritual. And that can be done in so many ways.

I've seen people use popsicle sticks to create replicas of homes where they had bad feelings or to use images of individuals that, you know, things didn't go well, that they want to just be rid of or write down hurtful things that they were told as a child. I've seen many different ways people express it. And so the point is to take whatever that is, you could choose to share it, or you can choose to keep it private.

And then you kind of just destroy that thing. It could be in fire, you could rip it up, you could throw it in the trash. And some people, as long as it's biodegradable, will actually turn it into a plant.

And so it'll become like part of the pot, like with a Fabergé, what do you call it, paper mache kind of thing. So I've seen different ways that very, you know, constructive way.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, very constructive, imaginative, creative. Yeah, that was the word I was looking for. Creative.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, so that they take something that is otherwise painful or difficult or infuriating, and turn it into something constructive and useful that you can grow from. And I really love, I love those rituals, but they're also hard. Yeah.

And they're hard, because you see the person really letting those feelings out. And it takes so much trust and the right kind of group to be able to expose some of the most difficult things you're going to experience as a person with other people. Yeah, really raw emotions at times.

Some people will yell, some people will shout, some people become incredibly emotional. Others are very quiet.

[Tommy Lavin]
And again, this also falls back into, you don't have to do a ritual with a group. You know, if there's something very, very private, you could do it in your bathroom. You could do it wherever you want.

[Lilin Lavin]
While you're cooking in the kitchen.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But, you know, if there's something just very private that you don't want anybody else exposed to, but you feel like you need to have it resolved, that's a perfect thing for a self ritual. And again, you can find plenty of examples out there if you want something.

Because I remember a long time ago when I went to write my first ritual, and I kind of sat down and I'm looking at this blank piece of paper and I'm like, okay, now I, you know, and I had to sort of look and borrow and stuff like that from other rituals because, you know, I needed a sort of a guide or starting place. And that's okay. It's okay to look at other people's rituals and borrow what you like about it and toss away what you don't like about it.

Again, Satanism is a very individualistic religion. So you make the ritual about you, you know, if you're doing it for a group a little bit different, you might have to take other people's feelings or likes or dislikes, you know, things like that possibly triggers into account if you're doing a ritual. You know, sometimes people are dressed, sometimes you have a nude altar.

It really does depend on the type of ritual you're doing and what you're wanting that accomplishment, you know, what you want to get out of it, the psychological part and the drama part as well.

[Lilin Lavin]
Another one that I know I've even had people come up to me and discuss before is the abortion ritual, which is one that I think a lot of people have some misunderstandings about outside of Satanism. It's not in any way, the ritual is not the abortion itself. The ritual is about the person, the individual, and that individual being able to have their body respected, their will respected, their desire for what they want for their life respected.

And that one in particular is sensitive. It is private. It involves two tenants, the third and the fifth tenant.

And then there's an affirmation that is involved with it. So the third tenant, of course, is one's body's invulnerable, subject to one's own will alone. And then the fifth tenant being that belief should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world.

One should take care never to distort fact to fit one's beliefs. And those are important. Why?

Those are important because we live in a world now where people are distorting things to fit a narrative, to change what is and is not reality, to have a political or personal or whatever agenda. And so that fifth tenant is super important because we again are following the science. And what we know to be true in abortion, we know is healthcare.

And a choice that the individual that is seeking the abortion care should be making for themselves. No one should be pushing them. They shouldn't be forced into that situation.

It should be something they've come to. Just like choosing pregnancy, choosing abortion is that individual's right. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it's their own choice. It doesn't matter why. You know, all that matters.

[Lilin Lavin]
No. It doesn't have to be another circumstance. The only thing necessary for someone to choose to seek an abortion care situation is they do not want to be pregnant.

Whatever else is attached to that, that's not for anyone besides the pregnant individual to decide. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And all the people that want to inject their own sort of shit into that can leave their own shit at the fucking door.

[Lilin Lavin]
I felt that was important because ritualistically you hear a lot of people talk about it and what it is. And I'm clarifying, it is not about the end of that pregnancy. It's about the way that that affected the individual, the choice the individual is making and letting that individual know that what they're able to choose for themselves is okay and that they have that right.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And we know Christians will take these and they'll twist them all up and stuff like that. And that doesn't matter.

That's their thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's their issue. Some people will. And you know, even I think sensible individuals, regardless of their religious affiliation, understand that for many reasons, some of them that they will agree with, some of them that they won't, all of that is completely irrelevant.

But for many reasons, people will be in a situation where that's the right choice, the right call for them. And whatever that reason, it deserves compassion. It deserves empathy and deserves understanding.

Regardless of what I might feel or you might feel or anyone might feel, it's about what it is that the person in the situation is going through. And it takes strength to make those decisions.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the other thing to realize about religion or ritual, I don't know why I keep getting tongue twisted on this. The other thing to realize about ritual is I kind of touched on this before.

It's not a magical fix-all. If you've got a crush on a girl and you do some sort of love ritual, she's not going to automatically be lusting all over you and stuff like that. Now, maybe it's a ritual that you actually psych yourself up enough that maybe she has interest in you and you've just been too shy to approach her.

And that could be a good outcome of a ritual like that. But doing some sort of love or lust ritual or something like that isn't going to get you a harem full of people that are all of a sudden wanting to have sex with you or something like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And really, again, consent is always an important thing. So just because you want something doesn't mean that you're going to get it.

So maybe it should be a building up my confidence or learning how to, you know, have conversations ritual.

[Tommy Lavin]
But yeah, it will go back to the old Rolling Stones. You can't always get what you wanted, you know, sort of thing. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, yeah, that you get what you get what you need.

[Lilin Lavin]
Okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
We are that we're going to borrow that from house. Yeah, I mean, and I kind of touched on it there. You know, another fun ritual, if you have a partner, sex ritual, sex magic, you know, sex rituals, you can, you know, and appreciate one another and appreciate your bodies and appreciate what you bring the joy you bring to one another.

[Lilin Lavin]
And just can be very absolutely very exciting. There was nothing wrong with having a nice bath with some nice oils and some flowers and some incense and some candles and then making it a special thing that you share with whoever it is that you happen to love or whoever you happen to love in, in plurality, whatever it is that works for you and the people around that time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, or yourself.

[Lilin Lavin]
It is self love in a romantic setting. It is absolutely okay in Satanism to self love it is you're allowed to romance yourself, you could take yourself out, you can come back and have yourself a nice glass of wine, and you can get yourself flowers. And you can get a nice hot bath and you can spend as much private time with yourself as makes you happy.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, you that is, again, those are all things that are put on you by other religions that in Satanism, self love, totally okay, there is no shame in that there's no nothing it is, if that's what you want, that's what you need.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, healthy.

[Tommy Lavin]
As long as it's healthy, as long as you know, you're not going down some sort of an addiction line with it or whatnot, but you're gonna give yourself the consent. And that's all you know, I mean, so yes, you you can totally dive into sex magic. And that's a whole different sort of ritual subject.

But it is it is a fun one.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you have a partner, it's super boosting, it boosts you. And again, we're back to the endorphins. Yeah, it boosts your endorphins, but also it builds a connection.

So private ritual like that is really a great way to connect with people that that you're in a relationship with that you want to connect with. Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, again, don't want to repeat myself on this. But you know, a ritual is anything with inside of any religion that that they're doing in some sort of a, you know, ritualistic way, or what's the word I'm looking for, you know, kind of step by step by step, you know, that is a ritual, they're going to call it other things, you know, some will call it worship, some will call it prayer, some will call it whatever, it's a ritual.

Yeah, you know, and in Satanism. And again, that is part of what does make that's that's another one of those checkmarks that helps cement Satanism as a religion as a legitimate religion is is that we do have ritual.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we ask ourselves the deep questions on a routine basis. And part of exploring some of those very deep questions is done through ritual. And people that are in a situation where they find that they are looking at an end of life situation, they found out they have some difficult news or something.

Again, ritual comes in incredibly handy. This is where you take time to really ponder and explore the things that you want to experience and accomplish in whatever time it is you have, even if it's that, you know, maybe you don't know for sure, and you're trying to just cope with the difficulties of illness. Again, ritual comes into play.

So you get to just take that time to explore whatever you're feeling, all of those feelings are valid, how to process them however you need to, because dealing with difficult situations is hard. And there's none more difficult than not knowing your own health. Because as a Satanist, most of us understand that this is, you know, the one experience we have.

And so even to the end, you want to make sure that that experience is as meaningful and as in line with what it is that you want your life to encompass as possible.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you live as full of a life as you can until the end.

[Lilin Lavin]
Education, again, ritualistic, you can choose to spend time ritualistically with a good book. And really ask yourself, again, the tough questions, what is it I'm trying to learn here? What is it I'm trying to get out of this?

What is it I want to, you know, bring out of this situation? And again, as mundane as that may seem, it is a ritual of knowledge, you're seeking something, you're growing something within yourself, you're transforming your understanding from one to another. So transmutation is one of those things you hear a lot in ritual, changing your mind, changing your thoughts, growing is definitely that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And that that is the, a lot of times the goal of a ritual is that growth that comes from it, you know, you get the psychological release, but you also get the growth. And how do you follow that up?

What do you do next? And those are sort of questions that you have to answer yourself. You can ask for advice or whatnot.

But there are things that you need to do in order to sometimes to complete the ritual, because sometimes a ritual isn't done. When you blow the candle out, you know, the dramatic part of it is, but the work sometimes just begins.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, at that point, you know, art can definitely be a ritual creating and physically manifesting our feelings are definitely are a ritualistic way to experience the world and to have that memory of that ritual attached to that art.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I remember there was, there was a time we were doing some different exploration. And one of them was like creative rituals. And I had started exploring, like cooking, because cooking involves the different senses, smell, taste, you know, all of those sort of things that add to an experience.

You know, because if you think about it, when your example, when you walk into a Catholic church, part of that ritual experience is the smell of the incense, you know, and a lot of times in other rituals and pagan rituals and Satan, satanic rituals, you have incense because it's heightening your your sense of smell, it's it's adding dimensions to, to your atmosphere, and cooking, creating something really sort of cool, at the same time can technically be a ritual.

Yeah, it's a creative way to do a ritual, but it can be a ritual. And that was one area that I was exploring at some time.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, if you think about the year as we go through how tactile the world is, you know, we smell snow, we know when that's coming, we smell apples and cinnamon, we know falls here, we, you know, these things that we've made just normal parts of our life. You can smell a rainstorm before it hits, you know, I mean, it's, it's... So, I guess all this to say that there is no end to ritualistic practice.

And the whole point is just whatever it is that's going to help you process something positive, negative, or everything in between, just processing a thought can be done ritualistically. So, ritual practice is very big for me. I feel like personally as a minister, which not every minister is going to feel this, it's one of the most fulfilling things that I get to do is to be able to walk along that journey with somebody and to help facilitate that moment, to bring them whatever it is they're trying to accomplish to help them on that, that step forward.

Yeah. And I personally love it. It's one of the most wonderful things I get to actually see is just the way people sort of just seem so relaxed at the end of a ritual, the way that they seem to have really, truly experienced something that made a difference in their life, and being able to witness that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I will say, you deliver, especially things like the unbaptism ritual, you deliver that really, really well. You deliver it better than I would deliver. The part I enjoy about that is the sort of drama that I sort of do, and then I put a mask on and I sort of do these sort of weird moves, sort of demonic type moves in a way.

And again, it's drama, it's to add to the ambience, but I think you deliver it very well. And like you've mentioned, we've had people that have said, I don't want to do this as a group, can we do something private? And you've always been open to say, absolutely.

Once this is done or something like that, come back, and we'll go back, and kind of go a little bit out of the way, and we'll do something private, just between our small group, normally a couple ministers and that person.

[Lilin Lavin]
I have to say one of my favorite things about the individual one-on-one ritual is we actually have another minister, and I'm not going to call them out because that's just not nice, but they know who they are. One of my favorite things was they really came to understand that they were interested in ministry because they participated in the one-on-one rituals, and it turned out to be one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. They just kind of opened up.

And it's an individual that I've always felt was very thoughtful, and just really great, calm person, wonderful. They bring a lot of good presence to everything they do, but they're usually very quiet. And so it was a moment that I actually saw them open up and just really enjoy.

Just you could see their face light up, and it brought me so much happiness to see them find this thing that they were so good at. And it was that one-to-one time that really they shined, and it's something that I still to this day think is amazing to watch because they just truly bring this very intimate and personal moment, and it's just really cool.

[Tommy Lavin]
I remember when that happened, and it was really cool because I got to see two transformations. I got to see the transformation of the person getting the unbaptism and their feelings about it. But I also got to see the minister you're talking about sort of transform and understand and really be like, hey, this is really cool.

I enjoy this. Like you said, there was a totally different vibe, personality, however you want to attach to it, but it definitely was different than the way that they normally because like you said, they're normally pretty quiet.

[Lilin Lavin]
Introspective, perhaps. Very observant in all the best ways. But in this moment, they just kind of opened up, and you could just see there was a lot of pride.

And just in the way that they were carrying themselves, it was just really, really cool. So seeing the way that they affected the person that they were spending that time with, but the way they changed themselves, it was just, it was awesome.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it was their first time to do a ritual, if I remember correctly, all the way through.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah, we had done a few of the group rituals, the unbaptisms throughout the day. And it was the first one that they participated in for a private ritual.

Right. So we always open with an invocation, the standard invocation that you'll see when we're, I'll say invited, when we're invited to do the invocations at different be grudgingly invited. Capital buildings or, well, not always.

There are definitely people that want us to do those things that are happy to see us there. And of course, we want to do them just to be part of the community. If you have an opening prayer, ours is no different.

It's just unfortunately, some people choose to take offense to it. I personally, I find it interesting because I know a lot of Christians will pray for me as if it's a slight. The only time I find it irritating is when I didn't ask, because then I know they're not doing it out of a kindness.

But when people offer prayer, while I might not be interested in that, I might say, well, I appreciate the thought. I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you for thinking that way.

I do appreciate that. Or sometimes if I know you well enough, I'll say, well, why don't you instead just sit with me? I would really appreciate your company.

It means more to me than that. But I don't have any offense to prayer in particular. I have no issue with it, except when it's used in that kind of like smug sort of way.

Then I just find it irritating because it's not meant in kindness and it sort of ruins the whole intention.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I know you're a lot nicer to that than I am because I find it offensive. And the way I normally respond to them is, sure, you can pray for me. Are you okay with me doing a ritual, a satanic ritual for you?

And normally their eyes get really big and they're like, oh, my God, no. And I'm like, it's the same fucking thing. You know, if you're going to pray for me without my permission, then maybe maybe I just might go home and do a ritual on you.

And I actually had one. I had a relative that was they were communicating with me over Facebook and they were telling me how wrong my life was. And I've gone astray, which I'm not sure how I was any other way.

You know, this person didn't know me very well. And they said that they were going to pray for me. And I said, well, fine.

I didn't ask you to pray for me. You know, you saying you're going to pray for me insinuates that there's something you feel like there's something wrong with me. So I'm going to do a ritual for you and your family.

And they begged and pleaded and apologized and said that they will never pray for me. They promise they'll take my prayer back. Please don't send demons to their house to go after their kids.

And I'm like, one, that's not the way it works. But hey, it felt kind of shitty, didn't it? And, you know, it was just me making a point.

If you don't like that, maybe don't force your religion on other people. Don't force your prayers or rituals on other people that didn't ask for them.

[Lilin Lavin]
So it does sometimes make people think when they are, you know, definitely have to put that that shoe on the other foot. But yeah, so we do approach things, I think people have noticed a bit differently between the two of us. It's not to say that I don't occasionally when someone is intentionally just being ugly say, well, if you want to talk to yourself about me, you're welcome to do that.

And they'll kind of look at me quizzically and a little irritated. I'm like, you know, yeah. But I for the most part, I think it's about intention.

If a person intends me well, and it's just trying to be, you know, a nice person, I'm not gonna crap on it. It's definitely the intention. What are you bringing?

What do you mean? And are you just trying to be just a crappy person who's using religion to try and support some crap?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and I would probably think of it different if we weren't always, especially if our entire country, our laws and all that weren't just full on always on attack by Christians, I might be extremist. Yeah, extremist. But unfortunately, so many Christians now have kind of crossed that line.

Not all of them. I will, you know, I'll openly admit there are some good Christians out there.

[Lilin Lavin]
We have a very good representative who I'd like to add is a very Christian Christian. Yes, I often am very happy to see out speaking publicly and doing a very genuine way and they express it with love and compassion. And just they conduct themselves very professionally and with all the good intentions.

I don't know them personally. I don't know who they are in private. I can't speak to that.

But what I am is impressed with the way they express Christianity, and the way that they admonish people that are using Christianity as a weapon.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, I will say I really respect the the way that they use their own they use Christianity in the way that the character Jesus presented Christianity against the Christian nationalists and things like that. And they'll, you know, kind of, I don't say attack because they're not attacking.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, I think what he's doing is leading by example. And he's definitely saying, you know, when you do this, this is what I'm hearing. This is what I'm seeing.

But this is what I understand our beliefs to say, right? I don't feel that you're really conducting yourself as this sets. And one of the times I really, really saw that was when they were trying to put the 10 commandments into the schools.

And he was one of the lone voices that actually spoke of as a religious leader within his community, and said, actually, no, we really have no business doing this. And I agree wholeheartedly, just like I do with the chaplains, everyone knows how I feel about the chaplain program. It's not meant to be multi, you know, recognized.

It's not supposed to be inclusive to all religions. If it was inviting imams, and if it was inviting, you know, Buddhist, you know, leaders, and all these different types of groups, ourselves, you know, if it was inviting everyone to the table, to let kids know that they could have any kind of conversation or no conversation at all, then that would be so different. But he was saying, you know, religion is something that's at church and at home, we shouldn't be putting it into classes, it will intentionally ostracize certain kids.

And that's not what school is about. Yeah, it kind of went off subject there. But that's again, ritual and religion and practice.

And, you know, I think it all comes down to say, be the genuine person you are and use the tools that you have, whatever that might be, if ritual is one of them, to truly sort out what it is you're to accomplish in life and use it to help you move forward. And not to say you're not going to make mistakes, or, you know, screw things up or go backwards. But the point is to keep moving forward.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I'll just end with, again, just because you're a satanist doesn't mean you have to do rituals. You know, there are plenty of satanists that never do a ritual in their life.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that's okay. I'll even go crazier than that. You ready?

If you're a satanist, it doesn't mean you can't pray. Yeah, I guess it just means what are your intentions? Because I had people say to me, like, my family, we do this thing and holidays, and it means so much to me, but I can't do it anymore.

And I said, Why? You you close your eyes, and you take your time to make your intentions. If it's about you, or what you're trying to accomplish quietly, it who has to know other than you, you know what you're doing, you can still have that moment with your loved ones.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you can just quietly do a ritual to yourself instead of a prayer or whatever, however you want to approach it. And then also keep in mind, if you're doing a ritual, and, you know, sometimes things screw up, you knock a thing over or you have fun with it, have fun with it's not again, you're not doing this for some deity that's like, Oh, no, you said you were supposed to do this three times, four times, three times, two times, you did it three times, four times, four times, one time, that's it, I'm pissed, you're not getting what you wanted.

You know, just have fun with it.

[Lilin Lavin]
On that note, because it's so important, I think sometimes you forget before we close it is just when you're doing rituals, if you're involving other people, let them know that there are safe ways to opt out. Yes. If you're doing a group ritual, and other people are part of that ritual, and they feel uncomfortable for any reason, or they get embarrassed, or they're dealing with just trying to accomplish, you know, getting overstage, right?

Give them an out, make it a word, make it a symbol, make it a signal, and anything subtle to help them know they can be excused and help them have an exit. Do that ahead of time, have that plan in place, because the worst thing you could do is to create a sense of discomfort, embarrassment, you know, just creating a negative situation. Create more trauma.

So we're there to support one another. And that's a really big thing when it comes to rituals is supporting one another, paying attention to everyone, you know, fulfilling your needs, but also considering the needs of others. That's what all relationships are about.

And so just having that setup and putting that in place ahead of time, you're going to be so happy that you did.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, we touched on that a little bit before, but I'm glad that you went into that much detail on that. You know, I remember before we did the Black Mass, we kind of had to talk with everybody and we're like, if the emotions are getting too much for you, if you get embarrassed, if you just don't want to do it for whatever reason, that's fine. Just like, walk offstage laughter or something like that so that we know and we can just keep rolling.

You know, you don't need to make a big deal out of it. You don't need to do it. You can and just have that out, have the different outs.

And in one, as we were planning, we even said, you know, if you want to leave for any reason, just go back here. And we have like a spot or space that brought them out of the ritual area over to the side. And we were like, just step out, you know, and you're fine.

And I think it helps people, especially people that are new to ritual or just deal with anxiety and stuff. Yeah, to know that they have an out. Yeah.

And they're not stuck. It takes that anxiety away as much as it can, you know, for some people, but it leaves some of that anxiety to know, I'm not stuck.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And you're building up, you know, a person's confidence when you're doing these things. If your goal was just to stand on stage for, you know, 15 minutes, and that's what you hope to accomplish, and it's the most you can do in that day, that's fine.

And if you're able to push yourself a little bit past that, fantastic, but not necessary. But knowing that, you know, it is your experience, everyone is working together, but you're there to support each other, including yourself. So being kind to you is being kind to others and making sure that you're fulfilling your needs is important.

So don't feel like you're obligated. And if you're ever put in a situation where you do feel like you're obligated, then there's something wrong. And it's important to stop and communicate and express things.

Perhaps you didn't put the boundary in place enough. Perhaps people didn't understand and you weren't clear. So try to assume the best and reiterate what it is that you need and what you want, and re-clarify what you'd like in the next situation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So I think with that, we can leave it. If you're interested, do some research, look, you know, all that, and play around, you know, and if you're congregation, if you're part of a congregation, and they do rituals, and you haven't been part of them, you know, ask them, when's the next ritual?

Are we doing rituals? You know, when's the next one? And can I observe or be a part of it or whatnot?

You know, so just take it slow if you want, take it really fast if you want. It's again, it's totally up to you how you want to do that. So have fun with it.

And again, remember, it's psychodrama, it's for you. And, you know, just leave it at that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Honor yourself, honor your feelings, be clear with what you want. And make sure that you're just doing what you need in that moment. Absolutely.

[Tommy Lavin]
And with that, I am going to give a great big hail Satan.

[Lilin Lavin]
Hail Satan. Good morning, good afternoon, and good night wherever you might be in the world.

[Tommy Lavin]
And hail Satan once more.