Ep.8: Toxic Masculinity

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.8: Toxic Masculinity

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So today we're going to be talking a little bit about toxic masculinity. That subject just kind of like makes my skin crawl, and it's just...

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I think it's something that we've begun to see pushed a lot more as of late, not that it hasn't existed for a very long time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, it's existed for a long time, but it feels like for a while it was going away. You know, you still found it in the small, I say small, but at the time, like in the 90s and stuff like that, the small evangelical circles. Back when the evangelicals were like considered the crazy sort of outcast Christians, you know, they're no longer considered that anymore.

Unfortunately, they're more mainstream, but really has picked up a lot of speed lately.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I think it's tied to a lot of the different rhetoric that we see, because toxic masculinity, even back to Leave it to Beaver, these kind of notions about what a man is supposed to be in society, in kind of these traditional masculine roles or hegemonic expectations that are put out there, whatever's popular with current culture. It's so bad for men, and it's horrible for women, but it's so horrible for men.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, you get everything from boys will be boys, you know, that sort of shit. But it's like now, you see men bragging about, like, when I'm on social media, and I see somebody that their social profile says alpha male in the title, I'm almost like just immediately blocked, because it's like, there is no point that this person has, you know, and like, we've talked about this quite a few times to the term alpha, you know, we come from a software world.

And it's like, you know, alpha is your most unstable. It's not, it's not set for the general public. It's got security holes, you know, it's never supposed to be to be released or used in production.

So I kind of chuckle when I see these boys, you know, or men presenting themselves as I'm, I'm an alpha man. And I'm like, you know, that, as a software development lifecycle, that that really makes you pretty damn weak. Yeah, yeah.

You know, then what is the term they, they, they try and go after men, you know, if men have feelings and stuff like that, they call them like the babies, you know, it's like, well, hell, I mean, betas are at least more stable than alpha releases, you know, I mean, betas, you have a chance that it could be, you know, an MVP and actually, you know, be launched

[Lilin Lavin]
with, you know, it's like a recycled mentality, though, it's several decades old, actually toxic masculinity, I believe it was the late 20th century, when there was like more of a male, the men's movement, a lot of people talk about the women's movement, but the men's movement, and not necessarily in the bad way, like masculinity in and of itself is not a bad thing. It's not bad to be masculine.

The bad aspects of masculinity are when you start saying things about how men shouldn't cry. Or, you know, if you are a learned person, then you're, you know, a bookworm or a nerd. And, you know, it starts to take away the traits of everybody, men and women alike have a lot of similar traits.

But then, you know, you have things that are more masculinely defined that are just in line with people of a male persuasion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I see it everywhere from, you know, nowadays, it is very possible that a couple has a child, and a woman has a more secure and well paying job than the man and the man stays home, you know, if they decide as a couple, again, this is all things that as partnerships, you know, you kind of talk about and decide as a couple, if they want somebody to stay home and be a stay at home parent, but the for some reason, then these men that do that are like, you know, neutered according to these people.

And that's just so fucked up. It's like, no, it's, it makes the most sense, you know, and I think some men still to this day, and I absolutely do not understand this mindset, that if their partner is more successful than them, they feel inadequate, or they feel demasculate, what's emasculated, emasculated, you know, and I was always like, I remember, we've been married for a very long time. So I was always like, hell, if you get a job and make more money than me, I'll gladly stay home, you know, I have no problems with that, you know, I'm, I'll stay home with the kids or whatnot.

You know, so I never understood that, that way of thinking that it's just, but I think when you look at satanic ideology, versus the Christian or Abrahamic religion, ideology, you know, Abrahamic religions, they, you know, they preach over and over again, how the man is the provider, and, you know, you are in charge of the family, and you're failing your family. Yeah, all that sort of shit. Whereas satanic ideology, we celebrate the person, you know, and your success, as a woman, your success should be celebrated by you and by me, you know, and you have bodily autonomy, you know, there is no ownership.

You know, that's the other thing you see in the Abrahamic religions, a lot is this weird sort of ownership of women, you know, you get married, and all of a sudden, the your wife is your property, right? And that's just, it's gross.

[Lilin Lavin]
But bodily autonomy is something that's afforded to both of us. And I think one of the things I like about less Abrahamic faith type based relationship, what I prefer outside of that is there's an opportunity for people to celebrate themselves, but also to celebrate each other, you have gaps in you know, your thinking or your skills or things like that, just like I do. And the beauty of a relationship is to find out where you can fill one another's gaps, or compliment one another's strengths.

And you can do that regardless of traditional roles.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no, and I think, again, I'm, I'm gonna brag a little bit about the way that we've been able to, you know, we've been married for a long time, 25 years, you know, but I think we've been able to do a very good job of complimenting each other, right now took some time to figure that out, and natural challenges and, you know, difficulties and learning how to listen to one another. Yeah, you know, but definitely there are areas where we we compliment each other. And I can think of one right off the top of my head, because we joke about this all the time is empathy and compassion.

You have like, enough empathy and compassion for like, two households full of people that you're not supposed to brag about that one out loud. But and like, you know, I don't have as much empathy and compassion. Now, that's not a bad thing.

It's just my personality. But I think together, we balance each other out really well with that, because you're able to be like, hey, you're being a bit of an asshole, you know, and then I'm able to say, hey, I think, you know, maybe that could be a little over the top, that's a little over the top, you know, you might want to, you know, you know, balance it out, you know, and but it's that's just one example, though. And again, it's because we don't have a relationship where there's, there's ownership, you know, it's not I'm in charge, I'm the man, I'm in charge of all the decisions of the house.

And you know, you all will do what I say, and blah, blah, blah. That's just toxic.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we've even heard like, the crazier examples, one of my kids is telling me at their friend's house, the dad decides what they're eating. So you know, normally, you're like, hey, kids, we're gonna get some out to eat. What do you guys want today?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, when they go out to eat?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But like, in her friend's house, it was, you know, the dad picks where they're going to be eating from what food they're all going to get. And then they just get with a dad picks.

I was like, that seems kind of screwed up.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, you go out to eat and your dad's picking everybody's food. I mean, it's like, what in the hell is that you don't have choice? I mean, even as a child, I mean, like, I think the only thing I've ever said to our children when we've gone out to eat was maybe not the $100 lobster.

Yeah, not the $100 lobster. And I know it's only one child. I have to say that, too.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, and a lot of times, it's really more of a joke, because we raised our kids to be sensible human beings. It's like, okay, within reason, look at these options and pick something reasonable. Yeah, as long as you're gonna eat it, that's fine.

[Tommy Lavin]
And even if for some reason you get it, and you don't like it, I'm not going to force you to eat something you don't like, you know, if you went out on a limb, and you tried something good for you, you're supposed to do that. And, you know, I want to reinforce that in my daughters, too. And so even as we've raised our daughters, I've, you know, really tried to make sure that they understand that this toxic masculinity shit out there just doesn't fly.

Don't get in relationship with guys. These are warning signs, have your own boundaries, you know, you, you speak for you. And if at any time you feel like you're, you know, being treated in a certain way, you should probably think about is this the best relationship for you.

And I think, fingers crossed, I think we've done a good job of that. And we've seen it firsthand in one of our daughters relationships where she was like, no, this is not a good relationship, you know, and I was, as a dad, I was kind of proud of that, because I'm like, okay, cool. I raised children, I raised daughters to know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, we gave them the tools, and then they were able to implement it real time. And you were able to watch that happen. It's great to see that also sucks.

So regardless, right, when you when you see the negative things happen, you're like, this sucks. But then you see them stand up for themselves or do what they need to for their health, and set boundaries and be healthy. You're proud of that.

It's just Yeah, I wish they didn't have to deal with some of this shit to get there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I'll say that was probably one of the biggest challenges for me was, you know, when I saw something going on in my daughter's relationship, as dad, I want to step in, you know, but I can't do that. You know, obviously, if it got to a point of violence, no, for sure, for sure, I'd step in, and the person would learn how to fly out the second story window.

But you know, you have to kind of sit back and say, Okay, I have to let her I have to let her take care of this, knowing that she has a safety net, right? You know, we're on the sidelines, right? I mean, I've always had the rules with our daughters that at any time, any day, it doesn't matter if it's three in the morning, if they're in a bind, they can call me and there will be no questions asked.

I will come get them I will do whatever you know, what do they need? And and you know, I, I think at least it sounds like the feedback I've gotten is is that that helps them feel secure in a way. But yeah, I mean, but you have you have a whole world full of all these asshole toxic men.

I mean, you've got Andrew Tate and his brother.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, this two assholes, you know, I don't think that that's, that's the worst case scenario of toxic masculinity.

[Tommy Lavin]
I think that's the worst case scenario. I'm one of the worst case scenarios, but you know, definitely.

[Lilin Lavin]
I just want to be clear to say there's nothing toxic about being masculine. No, about celebrating manly things. No, or celebrating yourself as a man, it begins to get toxic.

When you start blurring the lines between being overly aggressive, not being able to express your emotions. And this is something on women too. I'm going to be quick to call it out.

When you're looking at a guy and you're like man up, or you know, yelling things like that at them for having emotions, you're making the situation worse. You're you're feeding into this very unhealthy mentality as a mother or as a wife or as a sibling. When you yell at a man for being emotional, you're only helping to exaggerate the situation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, we we've seen that before. And it was somebody we knew at some time who made a comment about how like, the man she was with, you know, oh, he he got emotional about this. And I was like, you need to it wasn't even a friend.

It was like an acquaintance or just something like that. You need to just man up. And it was like, okay, hold on, you are you are now perpetuating a horrible toxicity that that, you know, ideally, we want to work out of men, you know, yes, it is okay, as a man to be emotional, right?

Um, you know, do you really want your partner to be a complete unemotional asshole? I mean, that's, that's what you're looking for in order to say, I've got a real man, you know, I mean, I don't know, I get confused with that.

[Lilin Lavin]
That that was one that always pissed me off. Or, you know, the negative, other negative things I've seen women do, where you've been helping me with stuff around the house, which is a thing you've always done forever. Like, Oh, how did you get him to do that?

But But what do you mean, like, he just does that? Well, yeah, but how I want to get my husband to do that, ask him to help with the housework.

[Tommy Lavin]
Why didn't you ask him? You know, I mean, to me, it doesn't. I mean, to me, the fact if you have to ask, okay, maybe there's some greater problems there.

But maybe start there.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, I never, I mean, there's things like you'll ask me to do stuff that maybe I just didn't think about, or I'll ask you for help with something. There's nothing wrong with asking. The problem comes from expecting right without communicating, or, you know, just demanding things.

I think we can touch on the toxic femininity later. But there are things that women do that perpetuate the problem and only make it worse on everyone.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, yeah, I mean, and I definitely see this growing toxic masculinity and growing really out of control in the in the evangelical movement. I mean, I see women that are going after other women. And, you know, I've seen social posts of where marital rape was excused and things like that.

And that is not okay. If you're in a relationship, and you're either, I don't care what kind of relationship you're in, if you said no, and then you fall asleep, and your husband or boyfriend or whatever, starts, you know, doing something with you that that's rape. I really because you couldn't say yeah, you already said no.

And this, there was a whole social post about it that I just could not believe the women that were on board telling this poor woman that she was wrong, because she was the property of her husband. And it is her job to make sure that his sexual needs are taken care of whenever he wants. That's bullshit.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and, and I'll just quickly a little note is not an issue only seen within our society or Abrahamic faith based societies, because if you look, one of the countries that's having the biggest issue with this right now, India, and not shitting on their religion at all, because I'm not saying that this is a religiously drawn behavior, but there is such an amount of sexual violence and assault and aggression towards women in that country. It's it's epidemic.

I mean, it's the proportion of danger women are in there. You can't understate.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no, I agree. It's just, I find it really worrying. It's worrisome that we see such an uptick in America.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And we do see it related to the religious ideology that's being pushed because they're using Bible verses, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Kind of like we talked about corporal punishment being maintained, instead of rejected, which is where it should be at this point in our time. Just as human beings, we shouldn't still be beating on children and expecting it to make them better people. We know better now.

And then you see the same thing with spousal abuse. There is a really good documentary. I don't know if we talked about it here.

It's called a shiny, happy people. And it goes into a lot of people know who the Duggars are, the 50 billion kids and counting crap. But the quiver full movement that was out there and the way that they would abuse children and women in order to progress, like progressively move the religious belief forward, and how they thought that it was to go.

And it had to do with you essentially chastised and beat your, your wife, just as you would your child, your child in that belief system. And there is no belief system in the world where that should ever, ever be promoted or acceptable or okay, because we know, psychologically, you are damaging people by putting your hands on them and expecting it to correct a behavior that only creates more problems.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and it's, it's 2023. You know, it is it is not 1953. The the nobody in any relationship should be laying hands on anybody else.

You know, I don't care what your magic book from the sky person says, it is not okay to to beat your wife or your child that doesn't make you more of a man, it actually makes you less of a man. And this idea that, like, the women are supposed to do the work around the house while the while the man goes out and works, you know what, that's, that's bullshit. I love to cook.

Yeah, I cook, I do laundry, I vacuum. I mean, you know, you do stuff around the house, too. That's what a partnership supposed to be about.

I could not imagine, I could not imagine where I'm in a relationship. And I'm like, looking saying, why haven't you vacuumed the floor? And where is my dinner woman?

You know, I just, I honestly don't know how that still happens in this day, other than that they're so brainwashed or indoctrinated in this ideology that that's what they're told from the time they're a child, or and I grew up in a very abusive home.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it's not just abuse that I had to go through, it was abuse I watched happen to other people. And it was the thing that I know I dealt with personally, even as we were, you know, developing relationship, there's a lot of aggression that I dealt with a lot of just things that were hard to get through where you almost can't be in a quiet, normal, stable home without it feeling weird or scary. I know that's hard to explain to people.

But that's what you're breeding in those kind of environments, you're causing situations where people will go out in the world and try to have a healthy, productive relationship. And they will be challenged for many different many different reasons. I can't say that it's because of that.

But that created a lot of unhealthy mechanisms that we had to work through that you had to work through in order for us to have what we have today.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I would I would echo what you say. If you haven't seen shiny happy people, I would say watch that documentary.

You know, it's, it's important for two reasons. One, to understand this toxic masculinity that you see in the world and the things that they will allow men and boys to get away with. But two, it also goes a bit into the the political ideology and what's happening and the way that this whole movement has set up to fundamentally try and change our country into a theocracy, which if you've, you know, that's a different subject for a different day.

But if you have any inkling that, oh, a theocracy would be a nice thing, go look at any other theocracy and then come back to me. And let's talk about that because none of them are good. They never wind up turning out good.

But I would say, go watch, watch that documentary if you can, you know, because you will see the sort of abuse that is just accepted.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, and perpetuated, you know, by adult, I think the guy in charge of the whole thing, the most egregious thing for me, he wasn't even married. He didn't have his own like actual family. He's going off on this whole behavioral.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, the guy, not the not the doggers, but the guy that was in charge of the the quiver full movement or whatnot.

[Lilin Lavin]
The one that led that church that Josh Duggar was involved in with. Yeah, they were trying to essentially redefine what family was and masculinity was and what it looked like. They had that whole, you know, religious umbrella thing where God, the husband, the wife, the children, whatever.

And, you know, the way that he was trying to reshape what a religious family looked like. Meanwhile, he personally wasn't married and it got really twisted with the other things that were going on. But it was just so gross when you look at it.

They were abusing each other as men. They were abusing young men. They were using, you know, children, women, you know, wives.

It was just a whole nasty circle of.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, I mean, part of one of the sermons he brought a child, a young man on stage and spanked him, showed the proper way.

[Lilin Lavin]
To love him and spank him at the same time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Love him and hit him at the same time. Yeah. Some idiot parents volunteered their own child to go through this in front.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. It wasn't a stern. No, but it was.

The fact that it was a mock that, you know, teacher, you know, had teaching parents how to, what was it that he, I can't remember. It was like, you know, give them a compliment and spank them at the same time. Like, why?

[Tommy Lavin]
But you still know, even though it was a mock, you know, and he didn't hit the child hard, he still hit the child. And you still know, psychologically, imagine you're in front of that many people being abused. That has to have psychological.

[Lilin Lavin]
Harm to that child. That's where I think the toxic masculinity really comes from a lot of people at different points in their life because they didn't have a good connection with their family or because they were made to feel a certain way. Then they go on to overcompensate and then you get the situation that we are seeing so often now where, you know, maybe men didn't have healthy relationships and they didn't feel like they were able to get the satisfaction they personally wanted.

And so now they feel like they can take and that's not a relationship or demand. Again, not a relationship.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I almost see like two branches of this toxic masculinity. I see the religious ideology of it and where they use religion and they use, you know, things like that, Bible quotes and all of that in order to quote unquote, keep their wives in order and all of that.

And then I see like the Andrew Tate assholes of the world. Who are teaching incels how to manipulate women and actually selling like courses on how to take advantage of and how to apply ownership over women. And of course, Andrew Tate and his asshole brother, they're both assholes.

[Lilin Lavin]
They're doing the women that went along with them and help them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. They're doing this for money. They're doing that for money.

And then all the incels that are buying into it are doing it because they're all rejects and don't understand. You know, they were told no once too many times in their life and they emotionally can't handle that. And so then they're going to learn how to treat women like shit and try and apply ownership over the women.

So I almost see like there's two branches of this happening now and maybe these two branches that have always been there.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think so. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, but it's just, I just have such a hard time that we moved past this at one point. We, you know, maybe not totally, but we really did. I, you know, I remember in the eighties when Murphy Brown, I think it was, you know, that that show came out and oh my God, there was all this upheaval because we've got a show and it's about a single mother and she's working and holy shit, the family structure.

But then the only people complaining about it were, were the religious people. But then we moved past that. And then it seemed like, okay, the world understood and we may have so many steps forward.

And then this evangelical uprise happened here in America and we've stepped back like 50 years and we lost all the progress and women have lost their rights, you know, their, their, their place in relationships, their place in the country. It's almost like in some States women are second class citizens.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

The problem is like you said, when you've got men doing it and they have been fed this line of crap by their parents or their religious leaders or whoever, that's bad enough. And then you have women that are coming up behind them, you know, doing the same thing and forcing the same message out there and actually telling women, well, if this doesn't make sense to you, if this doesn't make sense, then this is you're wrong, right? You're bad.

You're the one that's at fault in every problem in your relationship can be traced back to you. You know, your job is to appease the husband. Your job is to do what he says.

And if you're failing at that and he's having a hard time, that's your fault.

[Tommy Lavin]
And the most, the most screwed up part about this is when we first got married, remember that cookbook? So we got, we got this cookbook. It was an old cookbook.

It was from like the fifties. But we got the cookbook because it was really good. It was passed, it kind of passed down through, I don't know, I guess I got it from my parents or something.

It's like one of the good things I got from my parents. But it had great recipes. All this really cool old stuff.

Yeah. Like really, really cool old recipes. Things you don't even see anymore, you know, but there was a whole chapter in the very beginning of the cookbook that basically said that if your husband's failing at work, if your husband's having a hard time, it's your fault because you are not providing the right meals or the right environment.

And this cookbook will help you to, you know, prepare proper meals and even drinks. It went into like, I mean, it covered everything from desserts to meals to cocktails. I mean, everything was in this book.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But if your husband or your kids were failing at life, or if your husband didn't get a promotion, or if your kids got a failing grade, it was because you weren't providing the right environment or food or you were a bad entertainer. You know, it was a whole list of things like that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And like I said, that was from the fifties and we moved so far past that. But now when you look at the language, the language that's coming out of it, and I'm going to especially sort of pick on a little bit the evangelical women.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I'll just say they're conservative women who are not all religious or like, you know, evangelical, but they definitely seem to have this very twisted notion, this whole make America great again crap, where it's like, do you realize that women were taking uppers and sleeping pills just to function in the day, you know?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, you know, so that is not making, you know, going backwards is not making America great again. And bringing in toxic masculinity again is not making things great again.

I mean, I guess it's great for the men.

[Lilin Lavin]
Not even really, because, you know, it's not healthy. I don't think from the outside as not a man, but I don't see how it's healthy to bottle up your feelings, constantly be aggressive, to constantly be competing with your peers and just living this very, you know, ugly existence, you know, where is your friendships, where your connection, where is your happiness, if this is how you focus your life?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I would, I would agree with that. That's, that's not a relationship I would want.

And again, that's, that's one of the things that I, I love about being a satanist and I love about having a satanic partner is that, you know, we're, we're on an even playing field. We, we, we are level, you know, we are partners, true partners. You know, if there's an area I'm weak at, and you're strong at you, you help if there's an area where you have some weakness or need some help, I'm there to help.

And that's the way a partnership should operate. I don't think I would ever want a relationship where I'm like, you know, uh, you did, you know, uh, I worked all day long and where's my dinner woman, you know, or do you, do you have my lunch ready for me to go? I mean, just messed up stuff like that.

I just.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, I think it takes away from your relationship. I know when you do things for me, it's genuinely because you wanted to do something just to be nice or to be loving or nurturing. Um, you know, do we always hit the mark and are we always there for each other?

And do we always do perfect? No, no couple does that, but you do try, you do things all the time with great consideration in my opinion. And I know, you know, I will often try and do things just to let you know, Hey, thanks for this thing, or here's something I know that you really enjoy.

And I just wanted, you know, to show you my appreciation. It's just doing things for each other. How can you know whether or not someone's just genuinely showing you love and affection or afraid of you if you're in a different kind of environment?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, like just the simplest of examples is like my morning routine, I get up and I make you a latte. Like every morning, it's just something I do.

You don't even ask me most days. Sometimes I get busy with meetings and you're like, Hey, can I get a coffee? Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But that's just it. Like, I don't go where the fuck's my coffee asshole. You know, this is something come on every morning.

I expect that you know this, that's a shitty, you know, that would be a crappy thing for me to do.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's but it's just something I do. And I do it because it's a way that I can show that I care, I think about you, you're, you know, you're on my mind in the morning, you know, and I know you love your coffee, sometimes maybe more than me.

[Lilin Lavin]
No.

[Tommy Lavin]
Only in the morning. So, you know, I'll make you a latte, you know, using our latte machine or whatnot, you know. But it's just something I do.

I don't even really think about it. I just do it. But it's, I just, I don't know, you know, like I said, I look at what I see being promoted out there.

And it makes me somewhat sick. Especially because we have four daughters, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, we never had like sons to, to teach these things to personally where, you know, you're helping put men out in the world, hopefully that will help be a better man. But you know, I think it's just as important when you teach women, what is a good thing in a partner? And what is a healthy thing in a partner and how to speak up for yourself and set boundaries?

And what what does a good man look like by being an awesome example? You know, like I said, we haven't always been this perfect, you know, awesome couple, whatever, but through your work and time and commitment, we found a really awesome.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, I think I can confidently say that I've given our daughters a good working example of what they should at least expect, maybe not everything. And there's things that I'm sure I do wrong, you know, but I at least give them enough of an example that if they're with an asshole, they're gonna be like, Oh, hell no, no, no, no, no, this is no, sorry. You know, my dad raised me better than that, you know?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, I mean, like, our oldest has a really awesome partner. Yeah, granted, they're, they're both women, but they're, they have a very strong partnership.

And they really work well together. And they, they work together, honestly, and they work through issues and they, they talk and communicate well. And you know, our other our other daughter has a, from what I know, he's a really great guy.

Yeah, you know, every time I've been around them, I really enjoy their relationship and the things that they showcase. They're newlyweds.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. But but still, I, I genuinely like him.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, no, he's a really cool person. And he's a strong person. I think they complement each other well.

And, and I really love watching them interact with each other. So it's, you know, granted, that's a new relationship. I can't say for sure, but it seems like a great one.

The other one's like a 10 year long relationship at this point. And you know, that's not all you guys did that you're amazing. But by just trying to be decent human beings and showcasing the better and the worst parts of relationship, I think, you know, they learned what does it look like?

I definitely didn't have that.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no, I can vouch for the fact that you had no stability and no example growing up.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, and it sucked because it upsets your ability to be a parent and to know what to look for. I didn't know what to look for. I just thought, you know, most men were assholes and scary people.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And like, when I wasn't an asshole and scary, then you know, it was like, what's wrong? Something's got to be wrong. Oh my God.

You know? So yeah, I know that that took a little while to kind of work through and stuff, but you know, that's, that's the thing we, we did, but I reinforced the fact that was one of the first things I wanted to do when we got together was, you know, get you as independent as possible. The things that, you know, your mom never taught you how to do, you know, things, simple things like financing and stuff like that.

Because I was like, if I kick it, I want you to be able to, you know, take care of our children without feeling the need that you have to have a man in there, because that's the way that your mom was, you know, she had to have a man.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh yeah. Like, yeah, she, she was like that toxic sort of, yeah, she could not function without like some guy to nearly crap or else, you know, how would she know if she was not crap? Yeah, apparently.

And so, but that's just it. The way that men, I think, not all men, the way that a lot of these toxic men are today, had I met one of those guys, then I'd probably end up in one of Tate's sex farms. I mean, that's the kind of shit because I wasn't as independent or those things weren't there yet.

And having a partner that truly was able to work with me to develop those skills and to be strong enough to help me be an independent person instead of letting me continue to be a dependent person that relied on them, you know, a lot of men aren't willing to do that. They need to be needed.

[Tommy Lavin]
And they need to be in charge.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, and, and to feel secure in knowing like, well, they can't just leave me because they don't know how to do anything for themselves. You know, a lot of very horrible people would find that very appealing.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, and like you said, you know, you've got the Andrew Tate's of the world and all those incels that he's trained, they're out there looking for the women, the daughters that were raised in these sort of families that they've been told the man is right. You do what the man says, the man is the head of the house, the man works, the man is in charge. And you're just setting your children up your daughters up for possibly horrible.

[Lilin Lavin]
He would target also women in other countries where there just wasn't a lot of opportunity. It just wasn't a society that focused on women having stronger independent roles. And then he would take advantage of that because they are often just not equipped.

And then he would take them under his wing and make them feel special and loved only to then, you know, dump them in a horrific situation and then manipulate them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I think there was a quote for me. He's like, you never mentioned any of this stuff until after you sleep with her.

Then once you sleep with her, that's when you start to bring this in. And it's like, holy shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, yeah, it's not just Andrew Tate. That is a thing that a lot of men do. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that that's just human trafficking. I mean, at that point, the shit that he was poor.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, hell yeah. He could call it whatever he wants.

[Tommy Lavin]
He can go rock, fucking hell and trafficking. Yeah. He can rot in hell for all I care.

You know, I don't give a shit if he was a kickboxer or whatever the hell he was, he can run hell and I'm going to call him an asshole.

[Lilin Lavin]
How is he such an insecure little, whatever? Yeah. He was a kickboxer and he's a piece of shit.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
But then fortunately there is this, like I said, the thing that worries me that I see a lot is this ideology is growing out there and I see it on social media and I see all of that. And it is very concerning. And it's one area that I really think that the left hand path, whether it be Satanist or, you know, whoever else communities, atheistic communities, really need to, to, you know, step up and kind of fight against this toxic masculinity.

And if nothing else, then let us be the, the, the good shining example. For the most part. I mean, you're still going to find assholes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yes. Everywhere you go in every group of people and every gender, there are shitty people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the difference being is in, in Satanists, I mean, you know, we're Satanists next door.

So we're going to talk about Satanism on here. Just because you meet a Satanist doesn't mean the Satanist is going to be nice. There are asshole Satanists out there.

There are asshole Satanist men out there that will take advantage of women and all of that sort of stuff. The differences, the, the, the big key difference to me is in the ideology of Satanism is women are empowered to be like, oh fuck no, and take care of themselves and kick that asshole to the curb because the woman is empowered with bodily autonomy. She is empowered that consent matters.

She's empowered that she has power over her own life, her decisions and, and her actions and has the consequences of those actions as well. You know, so it truly is. It puts them on a even playing field.

Now she could still choose to stay in that. Again, that is, that is her choice. But the difference in the ideology is that in Satanism, women are empowered.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And it, it's not that toxic masculinity only affects hetero normative relationships because definitely there are homosexual relationships where men abuse one another or women abuse one another. Trans relationships where again, whichever, like the man, trans man, trans women, these people can still have unhealthy relationships and be abusive and represent the worst attributes that are assigned to a gender.

And that's what toxic masculinity really is. It's not that these are normal male attributes. It's the worst possible attributes that are assigned based on really ridiculous standards that don't truly make any healthy sense.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, I mean, I don't, let's say to, to wrap on this, you know, if, if you're a dude out there, don't be an asshole, you know, don't, don't be an asshole. Don't be that asshole, you know, treat your partner, whether it's a hetero normal or it's an LGBTQ relationship, treat your partner the right way. Don't, don't be that asshole.

And for women out there, be empowered, you know, understand you're on an even playing field and use that power to take control of your situation and find a person and be with a person that's truly going to treat you like their partner.

[Lilin Lavin]
But also don't be an asshole and don't treat your good partner like crap or use these horrible toxic words on them. And mansplaining. Yeah.

It's just, it's stupid and it's assholey. And if you wouldn't want a guy to do it to you, don't do it to a guy.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. It works both ways. It really does.

You know, and like you said, we maybe on a future one, we'll, we'll talk about the other side of this and I'll shut up for most of that one.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, but no, but if women want to not have to deal with the toxic man, then it's important that they also not treat men in a toxic way and perpetuate the same thing from the other side. You know, it's definitely wrong for you to tell a man to man up because they're crying and they have a right to cry. Embrace their feelings.

Do you want them to love you and nurture you? Well then love them and nurture them through the hard times. Encourage them to share their feelings with you.

They are allowed to have feelings.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I know sometimes you wish I had more feelings.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no, you are who you are. And I, you know, that's just it. You're never going to completely match your partner.

And it's so important not to expect them to change to fit your needs. You have to work together to meet one another's needs and expect nothing other than them to try. You can't turn them into somebody else and expect that to happen and to work because that's not honest.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I joke about that because, you know, with all honesty with my children, my wife, I am very much, you know, a caring and a nurturing person to the person off the street. Okay.

I might be an asshole and people might think I'm an asshole.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think you get what you give.

[Tommy Lavin]
You get what you give.

[Lilin Lavin]
And in your case, I think you definitely reflect, you know, how a person decides to treat you is probably what they're going to get back. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, but, you know, I think, I think we, I think we did a pretty good job of covering this.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't know if that's something for those of you out listening to let us know. So feel free to send us your feedback or send us some more insights you might have on the topic of toxic masculinity or for that matter, anything else that you might think you'd like for us to discuss.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And with that, hail Satan.

[Lilin Lavin]
Hail Satan. Bye.