Ep.5: Satanism and Ideology

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.5: Satanism and Ideology

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So today we are going to be covering ideology. Ideology as a Satanist, why does it matter, why should you care, and, you know, what kind of triggered this subject.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, so I guess a good place to start would be understanding what is an ideology for those of you that might not necessarily know. An ideology refers to a set of ideas, beliefs, and principles that form the basis of a political, social, or economic system and help to guide an individual's worldview and overall behavior. It's like a framework that sort of guards our values and plays a part in the assumptions that we make and the way that we look at other people and ourselves and our place in the world.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and when it comes to politics, you know, I often get in discussions on social media and you'll hear, you know, conservatives or Republicans say, well, we're the party of Lincoln. You know, yes, that is true. Republicans are the party of Lincoln.

Yes, the Democrats were Confederates at the time. But the hitch to it is, is that at that time, the ideology of the parties were very different. So at that time, the Republican Party was very liberal, and the Democratic Party was very conservative, and they were fighting for states' rights.

Well, does that sound familiar? States' rights? That's kind of what all the conservatives are fighting for now in order to ban abortion or make, you know, these anti-LGBTQ plus laws, things like that, that the current conservative ideology is going after.

And so it's just one of those things that kind of annoys me when somebody says, well, we were the party of Lincoln. Well, yeah, you were the party of Lincoln, but you were liberals back then. So are you a liberal or are you a conservative?

Which one are you claiming?

[Lilin Lavin]
I think that's difficult for people because many other countries have multiple parties. So it's easier to kind of differentiate what makes them them. And to understand the ideologies are a huge influence behind a party's affiliation.

And, you know, at the time of Lincoln, even though he wasn't necessarily fully liberal, it was a much more liberal attitude than the conservatives of the day had. You know, obviously Lincoln wasn't fully against slavery. He wasn't an abolitionist.

There were things that weren't as liberal as, you know, what people might consider today liberal. But it was so outspoken for the time and very much made great changes that were along the liberal path.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. It was somewhere around the Great Depression that the ideology of the parties flipped, you know, where the Democrats, seeing as, you know, we were under the Great Depression, lots of people were starving, you know, lots of people out of work, all that. They said, hey, you know what?

Things like government assistance, more what we consider liberal ideas now, that would be a good idea and might actually, you know, win us some elections. And the Republican Party went the other way. They went more conservative.

And since that time, the parties have continued to kind of go in different directions to where now I would say, you know, even in the last 10 years, the current Republican Party has become very, very conservative, ultra conservative to the point of Christian nationalism. And that's where, you know, I kind of I run into issues with the ideology there.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I think that's why it's important to understand ideologies are often interconnected. So when you talk about ideologies based on political movements, you're talking about social changes, you're talking about understanding the public policies, and things that are shifting within, you know, the country, when we're talking about political movements. So when you look at where we started with Washington, all the way to where we end up with Lincoln, there is vast shifts between then and then, as you said, the Great Depression later, but even between Lincoln and Grant, when you had things happening with Native rights, and the way that indigenous people were treated between Johnson and Grant alone were drastic, and could definitely be seen as shifting ideologies within the parties.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so why does ideology matter to a Satanist? I would say ideology matters to a Satanist, because it drives the at least the country we live in, you know, I was gonna say it drives the world, but it drives when it comes to things like elections and votings, it drives the state or the country that we live in.

And then the laws that we have to live under, and how does that affect you, or people you love?

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And as a Satanist, that's in line with the the Satanic Temple in specific, a lot of that as a non-theistic Satanist comes forward with, why did we choose this metaphorical figure? What is it about Satan, as we understand in canon literature, that makes it appealing?

And why do we call ourselves Satanists? So the entire premise of this character is that they fight against arbitrary authority that they've stand up, they fight for knowledge, they fight for change, they believe in creating discourse as a way of creating conversation, they use humor in some aspects, it depends on which literature you're reading. But these are the components that pushed me into Satanism that I aligned with, especially this way.

And so when you talk about how does today's climate and political affiliation affect me? Well, you talked about it earlier, gay rights, you know, the LGBTQ community, trans rights, and how those individuals are being denied bodily autonomy and the right to make decisions for themselves, their health, or their parents to allow, you know, make decisions for their health. When you talk about women's rights, and the inability for them to have the right to abortion, you know, not even necessarily saying that you have to, because just as much as you should be able to have an abortion, you should never be forced to have an abortion.

So just having the ability to have rights over your body, the right contraception, so that families can make decisions when and whether or not they're ever wanting to have a family. Some people don't. Individuals should never be forced to have to live a certain way just to fulfill a societal expectation that only is held by a certain percentage of society.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And it's, it's crazy, because you see the ideology in the political spectrum now, and the same arguments are being used for all the things that you mentioned, as were used at that time by the conservative Democratic Party, which is now a conservative Republican Party, are using the same arguments, which is states' rights. This is states' rights, it falls under the states' rights.

And I just fundamentally disagree that, you know, because I live in a certain state.

[Lilin Lavin]
My rights should change. My rights. Yeah.

And in some cases, I believe Iowa, they recently put in an extreme abortion law that is six weeks or less, with some different restrictions, but there was an interstate travel clause to a portion of that. So now you're talking about the ability to travel freely, which is protected in the Constitution. So when you look at the overall arching goal, it seems to be to create a divisive separation of countries that are working in unison to create very seemingly theocratic rule.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. You know, and so people will ask, well, do you have to be a Democrat to be a Satanist or all Satanist Democrats? And I would say, no, I mean, as Satanists, it's an individualistic belief system.

Nowhere in any organization that I've ever been a part of, did it have on like the application, are you a Republican or are you a Democrat?

[Lilin Lavin]
Never did, that's the whole problem.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. Especially since it's a religion. But what I would say is, for me, it would be hard to reconcile the current conservative Christian nationalist movement, and yet claim to be a Satanist.

So to me, I'd have a hard time reconciling that in my brain. I'm going to align with these conservative values that are trying to push America into a Christian nation with only Christian laws and only Christian belief systems, but I'm a Satanist. That just doesn't line up well for me.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's really wild to me because you hear many Republican-leaning individuals say, well, we don't believe in big government. We believe in parents' rights. Well, this is like some massive Jedi mind trick because you're watching.

Sure, I guess if you're a very extreme-minded Christian conservative parent, I suppose you could see this as being in your favor. And yet, if someone's telling you what books can be in a library, if someone's telling you what healthcare you can provide for your child, if somebody is telling you what laws are applicable in ways that affect your ability to have individual freedoms, like moving interstate, that is not a limited government. That is a very big government with a vast overreach.

So it's hard for me to reconcile how you don't believe in big government, how you believe in freedoms and personal rights, and still say that this is how you align.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's crazy because, I mean, there was a time, even in my lifetime, when there were still Republicans that you could call maybe liberal. They leaned liberal or they were at least centrist. They would cross the aisle or whatnot.

And we are way past that point, at least in America right now.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. There were a few people that I would say had a decent mind to be bipartisan to a degree. And there are still a few individuals, I would say, have it in them to do it.

But most of those people have been pushed out pretty strongly. I mean, if you look at the folks that were involved with the January 6th committee, I believe most of them were ejected pretty unanimously. And I still wouldn't vote for any of those Republicans, to be very honest.

Not that I don't appreciate what they did, but they held things like, you know, things that they held of value were not voting for the anti-abuse laws or not ensuring that people could consider having comprehensive gun reform, which that's a tricky subject. But, you know, just consisting of having things like universal background checks or wait periods, nothing incredibly drastic, but things that make a huge difference.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's kind of crazy that you brought up the gun because in the past, and I say in the past, like 10 years, 15 years ago, when I've talked to other Satanists and they have voted a different ideology that kind of had me scratching my head, I would say, you know, why would you vote for a party that literally is working to remove the ability for your religion to be here? And it was always something like, well, I want to keep my guns, which I always thought was kind of dumb, because at the end of the day, if the current conservative ideology gets what they want, what they're saying out loud, you know, they want a Christian nation. They want laws based on Christianity.

They, you know, basically they want us to not exist. Your guns don't mean shit at that point if you can be locked up and thrown in jail or something like that because of your beliefs.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and us means a great many people. It's not just Satanists. And to be clear, I don't as a Satanist believe that the country should be a satanic country.

I absolutely don't believe that. Part of what I hold incredibly valuable to me is the pluralistic nature under which we thrive as evidenced by things like opposing the Ten Commandments monuments and saying that that opposes all people's right to freedom of religion and that it doesn't belong on government property because then it absolutely asserts the idea that what is being decided is based on religious doctrine. So yeah, I have a huge issue with that.

And then to say that the reason that I voted this way is because I was, you know, I might be wealthy one day and I don't want my money taken from me. That's another one I hear a lot outside of guns. That's bizarro too, because you're never going to be able to accomplish that in an environment that has essentially, you know, corporate socialism.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And it is, you know, it is pretty crazy that, you know, you listen to some of this, the things that are being said and all of that. And it's just like, I don't know.

Like I said, I have a very hard time reconciling that in my brain. If, you know, I live a certain lifestyle, whether it's being a satanist. And again, we as satanists, we don't want everybody to be satanist.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's kind of counterproductive.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, we don't prophesize or anything like that. We don't try and actively recruit, you know, a lot of times when people come and ask satanists, you know, what is it to be a satanist?

Sometimes, you know, some of the descriptions that we give back might scare off people, you know, with the amount of, you know, things that you will be either removed from or, you know, family or, you know, any of that sort of stuff. You know, you got to kind of lead a little bit of a different lifestyle and, you know, sometimes be pretty secretive.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I think that's an important thing when you consider ideologies, right? Because right now there's a prevailing ideology that's very involved in society. And there's no complaints when those individuals are obviously of a certain belief.

You know, you won't see people getting mad when individuals are wearing, you know, Jesus saved shirts or crosses or putting up specific religious iconography for holiday displays or different things like that. So, it's hard for me to feel like the reality of religion being, you know, free from and free to have a religion being an actual thing here. And that's something that I personally would like to see.

I would like to see people of whatever faith be able to just exist and not have to worry about the way people are going to judge them. Or for me to go out in public wearing, you know, a Hail Satan shirt is going to possibly end me in an argument. Now, that's a rare thing, but it's a thing that I have to consider.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, and, you know, it does kind of come down to I've been asked, you know, well, why do some Satanists vote against, you know, their best interests, in a sense, or not even just Satanists? You know, if you're part of any sort of a minority community, if you're part of the LGBTQ plus community, you know, people of color, why vote an ideology that is actively coming after you, that is actively looking to change your way of life in a negative way.

[Lilin Lavin]
The people of color one really is striking to me because of what happened in Tennessee. That was pretty blatant. When you eject young, prominent black voices, intelligent people out there making comprehensive arguments only on the basis of their skin color and where they come from, you could tell me that's not what they did.

But honestly, can you tell me that's not what they did?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
The only other person that was ejected, almost, not actually, that they attempted to eject lazily, might I add, because who copies and pastes the same freaking thing? Never mind. But that's a whole other thing.

It was a woman, a woman that was already being treated poorly, not unlike the two Justins who were in fact ejected. Now they've come back, but it was, they were making a point. And the point was, if you're going to be outspoken, and you're going to contradict us because we're in power, we're going to get rid of you.

And that's how it came across. So as a person from that community, and I'm not going to speak for people from that community, but I struggle with understanding what is the draw? Why would you be, you know, why would you choose to align with the Republican Party?

And I feel the same when it comes to women, which I can speak on, is that, you know, if you are treated like a second class citizen, which you are, if you don't have the same freedoms from state to state, you're a second class citizen. If you're going to give up your freedoms and your rights for an ideology, like the Conservative Party, what is the benefit? Why would you make this decision?

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, you can even speak for the LGBTQ plus community, I can by proxy, by you and by our daughter.

[Lilin Lavin]
You're definitely an ally. So for sure, you can speak on on that behalf. But I mean, even as someone who's bisexual, I've been in a rather heteronormative relationship for quite a long time, but I do still, I am still very much bisexual.

So yes, I do to a degree, understand, but I come from a point of privilege. So I don't face a lot of the stigma that people that are in obvious same sex relationships face. And, and I can't imagine what it's like to have to deal with a lot of the laws that are being put out there and the things they project that they would like to do, like this recent false SCOTUS case where the lady lied about someone requesting a wedding website that was gay, which was completely made up.

So I'm kind of pissed because who did the due diligence on this case? Apparently, no one. And then now you can discriminate legally.

So what we're going to go back to segregationist society.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, I see it how it affects our daughter, right? Now I see how it affects her relationship and, you know, decisions that they do or do not make based on the state that we live in.

And, and then I see the laws that they're trying to pass. And as a father, it scares the shit out of me, you know, not just as a Satanist, but just as a father alone, some of these, some of this ideology that that's out there and very, very prevalent right now really does, you know, scare me in and does again, have me kind of scratching my head saying, how do you reconcile, you know, a different ideology than is against your best interest? That one I just, I've never quite understood.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, it's, it's confusing for me. And if people want to, I guess, explain it to me in a way, they're welcome to try. I just don't understand how it makes sense.

Why would you intentionally go against not only your own best interest, but the best interest of society as a whole, and the best interest of future generations? I mean, this is not, let's just take, for instance, the LGBTQ thing. They try to claim if you bring God back into the classroom and into the schools, that it will stop a lot of these things, which I don't know what it is they plan to, but yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
These things by meaning like children being more outspoken about being gay.

[Lilin Lavin]
Apparently, you know, if you're more outspoken or being trans or getting any kind of recognition or being able to use a bathroom based on how you identify or being able to get gender affirming surgery to allow you to actually be the person that you've always been, but finally outwardly. It's just to tell people what they can do with their bodies is a huge violation. And I'm not talking about kids because that is a very rare, incredibly complicated situation that involves lots of doctors and even still you're talking about 17, 18.

And these are kids that by all rights are most likely to harm themselves and potentially, you know, on alive themselves. And I would rather have my kid alive and being able to live as the person that they know themselves to be than to be forced into a box because society, not even all of society, because evil angry people in society demand that you exist that way, regardless of how you feel.

[Tommy Lavin]
So what you're saying is the ideology is, is now saying that if we bring God back into the classroom, that less children are going to be gay or less children will fall on the LGBTQ spectrum.

[Lilin Lavin]
If that was even remotely realistic, there are tons of countries where the penalty of just existing as an LGBTQ individual is death, literally not a hyperbole, not like I'm not dressing this up or being dramatic in some countries, they will kill people who identify that way. And if it was a choice or something that you could just, you know, turn on or turn on. Yeah, exactly.

There would be no one suffering that penalty, but there are because it is who they are innately. It is who they've always been. It's not some brainwasher.

It is just who that person is. It's how they live. Nobody stops a heterosexual couple and says, well, when did you know you were straight?

Yeah. At what age did you realize that you were only attracted to the opposites? Could you imagine that conversation, but it doesn't happen?

[Tommy Lavin]
No, it doesn't. Because we've had this religious ideology throughout the world, I would almost say at this point, you know, that has, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, there are countries that have always been much more like realistically, they've always been very clear that it does not their business, whatever's not happening in their life, doesn't really, they don't have a right to say. And I've kind of always held that same stance. If you're involved in a consensual, whatever it might be, consensual relationship, if you as a parent, you're ensuring that when you work with your kids, that there's consent being passed between.

And yes, I do think parents and children have an obligation to respect each other in a consensual manner. That does not always only apply to sex. If I'm going to tell you that you should get a haircut, I can't demand my kids cut their hair.

I could say, you know, you might want to consider having them getting a haircut, I noticed. And that's, for me, that's a lot. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with that.

But or, you know, don't dress a certain way, because it might, you know, lead you into trouble. I'm, I'm asking them, and I'm giving them feedback on what my motivation is behind that comment. And then they get to decide.

So yeah, to a degree, when kids are young, you have to make decisions. But as you can ask them, you involve them in making those choices, then you help them to be an independent human being.

[Tommy Lavin]
You mean an individual that actually thinks for themselves? I know. Critical thinking?

[Lilin Lavin]
Perish the thought.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Critical thinking has become like a bad word in a lot of conservative ideology, which is really weird. I mean, it's like, okay, so I get it, you want a bunch of brainless, mindless, sort of zombie drones.

[Lilin Lavin]
But it makes sense. When you look at some of the prevailing, again, ideologies in society, you know, you want people not to question, because when you question, it puts holes, and then you have to fill those holes. And then it gets you in trouble, because liar's gonna lie.

And it's kind of obvious. That's the other thing that really blows my mind, is that the prevailing conservative party as it stands, really praises and worships liars. I don't know a nicer way to dress it up.

These people are prolific, pathological liars. It's obvious, for the most part to anybody. Maybe they know, maybe they don't.

But the things they say are outright, blatant lies.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I've always taken the position, if you need to lie in order to win your political argument, or just an argument in general, if you need to blatantly lie, you know you're on the wrong side of that argument. Somewhere in your mind, deep down, you know you're on the wrong side of it, because you're lying in order to try and win your argument.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, maybe they know that most people aren't doing a lot of research. I don't know the percentages or anything like that, but it seems like most people are just all too happy to follow along and just agree. I mean, you look at stuff like, let's just say, for example, Fox News.

They were blatantly lying, to the point where they were sued and lost to the tune of millions and millions of dollars, and had to publicly apologize and publicly call out these lies, even when I believe it was when Trump was trying to go on there and have some kind of conversation about voting being stolen, they had to correct him publicly. And so, you know, how can you still value those opinions when it's very obvious they had no problem lying to you blatantly?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I don't know. Again, it's one of those things that I kind of wrestle with, you know, when I see anybody in any sort of minority community, and as a Satanist, yeah, we're definitely a minority religion. But at the same time, as Satanists, we don't tell people how to vote.

We tell people they should vote. Definitely, you should vote. No matter what side you're on, you should vote.

[Lilin Lavin]
The Johnson Amendment exists for a reason, because the pulpit is not a place to promote candidates. It's not supposed to, because you're going to naturally have a group of people that are going to feel compelled to make those decisions. They look at people, leaders, faith leaders, as a sound voice of reason, as people they trust, as people that have their best interest at heart.

And so when you endorse a candidate, you're really putting a lot of pressure on people to make that decision. And as a Satanist, that's the absolute antithesis of what it is that we want to provide, even as a minister myself, people that we work with. It's, you should be making choices for you.

I can say so much, you know, well, does this align with your personal values? Does this benefit your life? Does this benefit your family?

Does this, you know, improve your quality of living in any way? If the answer is no, then probably don't do that thing. But I cannot tell you with a good conscience, you must vote X, or you must vote Y or else, because that's horrific.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, and I can personally, again, not in a ministerial role or as a official representative of TST, but I can personally say, so-and-so is an asshole, because, you know, they're against abortion, or they're trying to take away gay rights, you know, something like that, because I am allowed to have my own personal opinion. But I don't go out there and say or, you know, satanic organizations don't go out there and say, you have to vote for this person. And, and, you know, I see it in churches now.

And I'm, you know, I got this one on social media, too, because some people will say, not my church. Okay, great, not your church. But there are plenty of churches out there that preach from the pulpit or say, you know, Dr. Justin Marchegiani I'm not gonna call it out directly.

[Lilin Lavin]
Because but there was a period of time where we did try attending churches. And it was a church up north. And they directly absolutely made statements like calling Obama a Muslim and a terrorist and like from the official during services.

And so that's pretty blatantly telling people what is and what isn't. And to the point where back when, like you said, there used to be rational people that were in politics on both sides.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And still just as many idiots, but much more rational individuals that would call things out when they were just wrong. John McCain was one of those people, again, not a perfect person, but a person that I think had the best interest of the majority people at heart. And there was some sort of town hall type thing.

And one of the women that was speaking, began to speak of Obama in that manner that he was, you know, a Muslim and all this stuff. And he actually gently and politely turned around because he was, he could be very firm and loud. But for the most part, he was relatively soft spoken.

And he turned to her and he said, No, ma'am. He's a family man. And as much as you know, we may disagree.

He's a good man. You know, he's a faithful man.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And he corrected him that Obama wasn't.

[Lilin Lavin]
And he wasn't. Not that that should matter.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right? It shouldn't matter. There's nothing wrong with being a Muslim, but they were trying to use it in a derogatory way.

Right? And it was shut her down.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, she was trying to disperse his, you know, person. And so John McCain, he turned to her very, you know, slowly, and in the way that he does and looked her in the eyes and said, No, ma'am. And it was just that's the kind of thing I wish we could have.

Again, I don't know that that's realistic, at least not anytime soon. Because we again, seem to value lying and reality TV style politics over anything that's beneficial to people as a whole. I mean, I guess people don't maybe realize every time a certain frickin Congresswoman opens her mouth and says that they're going to impeach so and so you're paying for that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of definitely a lot of wasted tax money in there. But that can be a different but again, it comes down to ideology. Yeah, it does.

It does come down to ideology. It comes down to, you know, and that's, that's true. Even of people, if I'm looking at a Democratic candidate, I'm going to look at their ideology too, as well, because I want to understand, just because they have a D in front of their name doesn't necessarily mean that I align with them.

You know, and are they at risk to possibly flip parties?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, that seems to be a really frickin common thing. I mean, you look at Manchin, maybe he has a D by his name, but it's not really a, you know, his D needs some biography. But um, that was a bad joke.

But when you look at that, or Manchin, or just, I just said Manchin cinema. Yeah, Manchin. Some of these people are obviously not aligned with the ideology that one would believe aligns with a more liberal point of view.

Whereas, you know, you've got people that seem to, but then they flip. So there's a lot of concerns about ensuring that you're doing the best due diligence you can, but you can't truly know.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, if somebody's gonna lie, they're, they're gonna lie. But I at least try and look at their ideology to make sure, does this person line up with the things that I want for me, for my family, for the people that I love and care for in the now and in the future?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, the ideology is so important, not just for the politics, but let's just look at the climate, right? We have the one planet so far that I know, don't know of any nearby that have the things that I need to survive.

And, you know, the ideology of certain people that's relatively prevalent is who cares? You know, when I die, I go to heaven. So it's fine.

No, no, it's not. What about, you know, why did you even bother to have kids if you don't care what kind of crap hole they're living in? You know, do you not want to provide something?

So again, ideology encompasses so much of our lives, and the ideologies we choose can affect the lives of others.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, it does. I mean, you look at, at things like Supreme Court nominations, those, those are lifetime appointments.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, you know, so unvoted. Well, we, the average person doesn't get to vote, you know, unless you're a certain group of people, and then you get to critically, you know, attack people that don't align with what you believe should be sitting on the bench. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, you know, then the other, the other question that that comes up, because obviously, you know, we don't, as Satanist, satanic organizations, any of that, you know, we don't specifically say who to and who not to vote for. But I do talk about ideology a whole lot on on social media. And again, I will, I will blatantly say somebody sucks, if I think they suck.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, me telling you that Ted Cruz is an awful human being, isn't me telling you to or not to vote for him, if you like him as an awful human being, good for you. But I can definitely say, you know, he didn't show up for Yvaldi, he didn't show up for Texas, he continually did things to prove he doesn't care about the state. So is that what you consider a valuable member of your political representation?

I mean, maybe the answer is yes for you. Yeah, maybe.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, but then the other question comes up, okay, you know, if, if, if you could be Republican or Democrat, as a Satanist, you know, how, how do you, how do you deal with people that are of the opposite ideology? You know, how are you friends with people do do, you know, where, where does that go? Or do you just kind of stay in your own little bubble?

[Lilin Lavin]
See, that's, that's tough for me. I prefer to be able to have open dialogue with people regardless of where they are, because it helps me understand where people come from. It helps me grow as a person individually.

Sometimes it just strengthens a perspective I already have. Other times it challenges it and forces me to grow outside of what I come to believe. But then there's a side where if you align with any kind of ideological center point that revolves around taking away people's rights, wishing people dead, you know, harming people I love.

That's not really a, it's a non starter for me. I can't come to you and have an open conversation when your position is fuck you. I don't care.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I don't have a lot of friends anyways, but that's by design. That's just the type of person I am.

But I can be friend, I can be friends or friendly with a person of the opposite ideology. Again, kind of like you said, provided they're not trying to harm somebody I love or myself.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. Or calling into question whether a person has a right to exist. That's not optional.

You don't get to decide that. Like saying trans people don't have a right. Yes, they do.

They have a right to everything that everybody else has. And if you're going to tell me that an individual or a group of people don't have the right to exist, then we can't, I can't discuss with you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, and again, it's the question might actually come back to, would they be friends with me? Because if somebody is going to make bigoted statements in front of me, I'm going to call them out.

And they're not going to really like the reaction that they get. Because I'm going to be quite honest and, and basically call them a bigot.

[Lilin Lavin]
And so, I mean, you don't have to basically it's pretty blatant.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, you know, if you make bigoted comments, if you're a bigot and, and you try and be friends with me, then I'm going to call you a bigot.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I think you've also dealt with, and I know you've seen it, I've seen it, the weird effect that happens when you call certain people a bigot. I don't know if it's like a new learning point or something, but.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. It's, it's, it's weird. I don't know if this is like being taught around the churches or something like that, but calling somebody a bigot when they do bigoted stuff or say, you know, bigotry or spread bigotry is not being a bigot.

You know, I, I really don't care what your Bible study class told you or whatnot, but if you're a bigot and I call you a bigot because you made some Bigoted statement. I'm not being a bigot by calling you out. It's kind of like saying, oh, you're a Nazi for calling out Nazis.

And it's like, no, those are Nazis, you know? And, and that doesn't make me a Nazi for, for pointing out that, Hey, you're a, you're a Nazi.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I don't know if it's strictly only religious groups that utilize that talking point, but it's a really weird one. I've definitely heard.

And the Nazi thing again, what the hell kind of ideology are you aligning with where you feel like it's an appropriate thing to use antisemitic slurs on people or just randomly call them a Nazi as a point? I don't know how many times you or I have been doing things on social media and all of a sudden they'll use antisemitic language. I mean, you've been called a Jew outright and there's nothing wrong with being Jewish just to put that out there.

But what the hell is wrong with you when you think calling somebody that is appropriate as a way to try and demean or debase them?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I'll get pictures of Hitler sent to me and stuff like that. And like you said, there's nothing wrong with being Jewish.

I'm not Jewish. So I know they're using it as a, a way to try and slur. And I don't understand where that's, that's a slur.

That's, that's one where it's just kind of like, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or, or fuck are you talking about? They'll call me a dude. Like you're hurting my feelings.

Yeah. Much work. Trans people put into like everything they do.

Okay, great. So I look good either way. I don't really give Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, if, if, if you're a dude, then we've got some, you know, we've had four children. So I'm just that amazing. I'm going to have to kind of question.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, it's just, it's the stupid thing is people seem to think somewhere, somehow it makes sense in their brain. And I don't understand it. And this is again, where ideologies go awry and people go down these weird rabbit holes.

And the next thing you know, you're satanic pizza parlors and pedophile traffickers. And then you're, you're just scratching your head going where the fuck did that even make sense for you to spit all that out? You know, and that's, we've talked about that before when it comes down to ideologies, like back when there was all the satanic panic stuff going on and there is that whole ideology in place and it seemed to kind of dissipate.

And then it sort of came back up now with this whole thing. But instead of just calling people satanists, now they have groomer and blah, blah, blah, all these fake things that they assigned to people that they want to just associate as an enemy.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, and, and for a lot of that, I kind of look at those almost as false, false, false flag attacks, because, you know, a lot of times the people that are calling people groomers and pedophiles, you know, you see a lot of arrest coming from that group. And it's like, no, I think the problem is a little closer to home, but I do think there is definitely seems to be a bit of a rise as a second satanic panic, or maybe the original one never really went away. It got quiet for a while.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I think they started focusing on different concerns of the time. And then it just sort of came back around because historically, I mean, as far back as you can look, anything that a society deemed to be inappropriate was somehow associated with Satan, which is one of the things I often tell people, why would you choose that name? Well, you're going to call me at anyway, you know, you're the devil, you're a demon, you're evil.

Well, fine. I'm all the horrible things you say I am, except absolutely none of them are fucking true.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And by the way, Satan doesn't really exist. You're the only one that actually believes in that.

Nobody, nobody else in this conversation does.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, that one always befuddles me slightly when you're like, I believe in God and the devil. Wow. Well, that's one of us.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Awkward. Awkward. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, you know, what else we can, you know, I think I've covered a lot of the questions that we get around ideology.

So, you know, as I said, Satanism is a very individualistic religion.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I wanted to stay that way.

[Tommy Lavin]
I wanted to stay that way. It's designed that way. And so, yeah, you can really be whatever you want.

The question is, does that truly align with being a Satanist? You know, it's kind of like, I don't know, can you be a satanic Christian?

[Lilin Lavin]
Maybe. I've seen some weirder combos. But I guess what I'll leave people with is when you discuss ideology or when you talk about political ideology, whatever choice you choose to make, look at what it is that you want to accomplish as an individual.

Is it that you want to provide a better society? Is it that you want to have a more equitable society as much as, you know, is possible? Do you want people to have rights and freedoms?

Do you want to have rights and freedoms? And then look at what your options are and ensure that what you're choosing aligns with who you truly are.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I would agree with that. In the past, I used to look a lot at financial stuff. But seeing as the ideology has become so extreme, and we have so much Christian nationalism inside of the conservative ideology now that they are literally trying to turn this country into a Christian nation, then I would kind of echo what you said, you know, to me, freedom means more than anything else.

[Lilin Lavin]
Choice means more, you know, I mean, And I'm not going to say that not having all the money won't give you certain freedoms that other people won't have. So I do understand that it's valuable. Like you're saying, yeah, you're without freedom, you don't have shit, right?

What's the point? You know, what about your family? What about people you love?

What about people who you can't help financially? It's just what is it that we want as a society? And what are we trying to strive for?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, well, I think that's a great note to leave it on a good ending thinking note. You know, they can take that and then continue to ponder upon it. So yeah, with that, I think we'll wish you a good Hail Satan.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yes, Hail Satan. And, you know, good morning, good afternoon and good night, depending on where you might be.