Ep.31: Beyond the Shadows - A Satanic Perspective on Mental Health

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.31: Beyond the Shadows - A Satanic Perspective on Mental Health

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist-seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today, before I introduce the episode, I am going to give a bit of a trigger warning on this one. We will be talking about mental health, depression specifically.

So if this is something that you don't feel like you might be in the right place, state of mind for, I would say, turn it off now. We've got 30 other episodes that you can listen to. But I did want to put that out there first because I think it's a responsible thing to do before going into a subject like this.

So depression, why are we talking about depression?

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I think aside from the fact that it's something that most people are going to face at some point in their life, when it comes to a community of people like Satanist, who are constantly othered and are dealing with different varieties of rejection or ostracization from society, you have a natural level of isolation and depression that can come from that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I would agree with that. For me, depression is, I don't know if I would say a difficult subject. I understand it in the sense that I've dealt with depression from times.

There's instances in my life where I've been depressed, but I know other people deal with depression on a daily basis, that the depression they feel is overwhelming and oppressive. And that's what I mean. I can only think of a few times in my life where I've felt truly depressed.

I felt sad before, but to me, I can even think back where I didn't even really understand depression because I had never truly gone through it until some point in my life when environmental things happened that triggered true depression. I was like, holy shit, now I understand.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And I think it's difficult as someone, you know, there's such a degree of depression, right? It's not one size fits all.

And it's going to fluctuate even for people that deal with it on a routine basis, you know, from one type of depression to another. So there's tons of different psychological aspects. And I'm not going to pretend to talk about that because I'm not a professional.

But from someone that's dealt with depression in different points in my probably on a daily basis, you know, it's so important to discuss it because mine is manageable most of the time. And, you know, there's different things that can make it go up a level. If I'm sitting around like one to three, I feel like I'm okay.

You know, it's uncomfortable, but it's manageable. It's just kind of a background static. And then things will happen like, you know, the current environment.

Yeah. You know, you look at things that are happening in the world, the very many different overwhelming situations that we find ourself in. Sometimes it starts to creep up, and I start to feel things that let me know there could be more to it.

You know, I'll feel really weepy for no reason, at least not one that I'm aware of, or I'll feel really irritable. More than usual, I'll snip more than I usually do, respond in an uncharacteristically irritable way. Instead of being more level than I typically am, or the self care stuff, you know, I just won't be as motivated to do the routines that I come to enjoy, because I enjoy, you know, looking nice and being presentable.

You know, so those things just don't matter, or things don't taste good, or being around people doesn't seem fun, or I just don't want to get out of bed. And it's like a struggle to say, no, you have things you have to do and bills you have to pay and people that rely on you. You got to get up.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I want to respond to that. I do want to put one other point in here as we talk about this.

We are not mental health professionals. So the point of this episode is not any sort of therapy or to give you mental health advice. We are merely talking about the topic, the way that it's affected us in our lives and the way that we've seen it affect other people.

If you need mental health help, I would advise please go do that. I just wanted to put that in here that, you know, we're not approaching this as a therapist or anything like this. This is really just our feelings, our experiences on the matter.

So back into what you were saying. That's when I realized for me when I was depressed, because I'm a work, work, work, do things, do things, do things, you know, very driven, driven sort of person. And I remember it was just a couple of weeks ago where I was just like, I don't want to do anything.

I mean, I literally didn't want to get out of bed to go to work. I didn't care about work. I mean, I was like, I just don't care.

And I have, you know, like I said, there's only few instances in my life. So when that happens, I don't really recognize it. You know, it was like you were telling me you have to get up, you have to go, you know, and I'm like, why are you bugging me?

Why are you doing? I just want to lay here. I just don't want to get up.

I just, you know, fuck, go away. Give me a day. But because you know me so well, you were able to see this is not you.

Yeah, this is the not you that I know that I've come to know over 25 plus years.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And I think that's, that's another important thing, right? So if you know people and you start to notice things out of the ordinary, it's uncomfortable to say, hey, you don't seem like yourself.

And it's uncomfortable to try and be pushy. I mean, you've had to do it for a long time. I mean, in our relationship, you've definitely learned to pick up on things and you could be kind of been on the other side of it.

You know? Yeah. I mean, but it's okay.

I'm gonna say this in a way hopefully it comes across. It's good that I'm on the other side of it. It would say, hey, you know, you need to look at what's happening.

And let's get moving. It's important. You can't just sit in it because it just kind of gets worse.

[Tommy Lavin]
Because I just wanted to sit in the dark, like my dark room in bed and not move. I mean, I was like, and you were like, no, you've you, you have to get up, you know, you open the curtains, and I felt like a vampire there. Listen, you know, I was like, and, you know, in the thing that I didn't realize, and I've come to realize now is that after an episode of depression like that, it lingers.

Oh, yeah. You know, because I can literally still feel it. But it's not at the the level that I was at, right?

You know, for and again, I don't know what, you know, sometimes people ask what triggers it and should you you were asking what what? And I was like, I haven't got a fucking clue.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, the hope is, you know, when you experience it, you kind of want to, as you're getting out of it, understand, well, did something happen beforehand? Or was I feeling unwell?

I mean, so many things trigger it, right? You can get an illness that can make you depressed, you can get news that you didn't realize bothered you a lot that bothered you a lot. There can be so many background things that can lead to episodes of depression, where you're just feeling with dealing with hopelessness, or feeling like you can't do things in a situation that that you want to or should be able to do something.

And it's just that powerlessness that sometimes can push you over the edge. I mean, any person at any point in time could find themselves just in the worst pit of despair, unexpectedly. So sometimes when you can, it's awesome to be able to reflect on it to learn what to look out for, to kind of help for future things.

And that's one of the ways that I've been able to learn to manage it better. And the other thing is, health stuff can change it, right? So hormonal fluctuations at different points in your life, just different light that you're exposed to doing less, less active things eating certain ways can definitely affect your mood and your state or just the way you perceive yourself one day to another.

You know, maybe you wear something that exempt, accentuates an aspect of you that you don't like. And you're like, man, I didn't even realize.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, something triggers it that, you know, subconsciously triggers it. Now, that was the hard part for me, because I'm not a feelings person. No, you know, I'm, I mean, let me have feelings.

Yeah, I'm a very feelings person to people that are very close to to you, to my children. I have endless amounts of, of love and compassion and empathy and, you know, all of that, but I'm not a feelings person where I can describe my feelings or even sometimes that I even feel feelings. I remember when I was younger and, and my parents were going through a divorce and they tried to put me into counseling because they thought, because I wasn't upset about it, something must be wrong with me.

And like, I had counselors telling me, well, you know, you're upset about it. You're just not showing your feelings. And I'm like, no, really, I, I don't feel anything about it.

It doesn't matter. And then they made me like wear this pillow, like bring this pillow around and stuff of towel in it every day to show this, I guess it was supposed to be like the weight of my feelings holding me down. And I'm like, no, you don't understand.

I really don't feel it. It's not like I kept trying to tell them that, look, I understand, I comprehend what's going on here. I just really don't have any feelings about it either way, you know?

And so for me, when you were trying to say, you know, feelings, I was like, that's where I just kind of drew a blank because I'm like, I don't understand what you're talking about. And I know we've had those conversations before where you're, you know, we try and talk about feelings. And sometimes I'm just like looking blank stare in your life, don't you?

And I'm like, no, I have no comprehension of what you're talking about there. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
It reminds me of when I tell the dog, do you want to kind of tilt their heads and get you with this? Like, I'm interested in what you're trying to say. And I'm excited, but I have no freaking idea what you're saying.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So no, I mean, but definitely there are things I understand that they're saying subconsciously. Like I said, I could have put a shirt on that reminded me of something from some time ago that was upsetting.

I don't know. I don't know what triggered it for me. And I think that's part of the problem is, I shouldn't say problem.

That's part of an issue that with depression that people run into is they don't always, and they can't always put their finger on what triggered this for me. You know, I know things like money can, bills and stuff like that. And you can have a feeling of hopelessness sometimes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Monotony of just the everyday stuff.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. That can definitely be a good point.

So I don't know. I don't know where I was going. That you don't deal with emotions the same way as everyone else.

Yeah. I guess that would be it. And I do, like I said, I have tons of emotions for people that are close to me, but that's about where they end.

[Lilin Lavin]
I've seen you express care and concern outside of that for different things you feel passionate about. It's just, I think you convey them differently, which is fine. We've talked about that before.

Not everyone feels and experiences life the same way. And when you work on that and you kind of combine it with other people, you can actually do a lot more because you have these really deep perspectives from different angles. So it's useful.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I do think there there's, there's a stigma around depression, depression, and specifically people that are in any sort of a leadership position that depression makes you weak or depression makes you vulnerable or, or people in certain positions don't get depressed. And I think that stigma needs to be destroyed because I think it makes it difficult for people that are in those sort of positions to talk to other people about what's going on or how they're feeling because then they feel exposed.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I, I definitely know personally, I won't speak for other people, but I've heard it from other people that when you're in a leadership position, like if you're in ministry and you're a congregation head, one of the things you don't want to do right is to put your problems on your community because you want to be there to provide a supporting, nurturing community for other people. And you have this fear that if you are, you know, going through something that it can affect other people's lives negatively, because you know that they're all dealing with different things.

And part of what I feel my job is, it's not what everyone feels. But part of what I feel my job is, is to be there, you know, as someone that you can trust as someone that can help, you know, hear what they might be having going on. Again, I'm not a trained counselor, I don't have counseling skills.

So of course, if it's a big deal that's going on in their life, I'm always going to recommend that they talk to someone that's at a professional level, right? Because I can only be a sounding board and someone that can listen and give my best understanding of the situation, you know, but I'm not there to fix. You could be an unconditional friend.

Right, absolutely. And that's something I definitely love to do for people, you know, regardless of what's going on, I'm here to listen, regardless of where you are, I'll sit there with you. You know, these are just things I feel compelled to do.

And I think for myself, sometimes when I'm feeling in a really bad place, what I don't want to do is share that because I feel like it can influence people's mood, it can affect them. If there's someone that maybe is going through something, they'll feel less inclined to talk. So it's just a concern about the way it could affect others, or the way other people could perceive it.

So I think it's really important to find a way to share with people, you know, no, I'm not, I'm not doing the greatest right now. And you know, I'm working through it. But don't let that be something that stops you from talking to me.

If I don't feel like I'm in a place, I will let you know. And but it's hard to to do that. Because I think there is a stigma.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot of stigmas around mental health, all together. And then there's different stigmas around the different types of mental health.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, this one, specifically, depression, I think, you know, I think each one could have its own Oh, for sure.

[Lilin Lavin]
So, you know, like, you work in a leadership position in your daily job, right? So I mean, I think you understand how when you're in a crappy place, you're more inclined to sort of brush it off and not bring it into work, because it could affect the environment for other people or yourself, you know, I think that everyone has a tendency to do that, whether it's because you're a parent, and you don't want to make that a problem for your kids, or, you know, as a family member, or a loved one, it goes on and on, especially, and I know this is something you've dealt with before, when you have a partner who deals with things like depression, you know, what if you talk about it, and it sets something else off, and that's a really difficult position to be in.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I'll admit, I definitely have felt that, you know, there's times where I'm like, I just, you know, I'll keep it to myself, because I don't want to possibly trigger you, you know, in a way, and because I know you deal with more depression than, you know, obviously, I do, you know, but you're also probably better able to handle it than I am, because you've dealt with it for, for so long, so much of your life.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, no, it's like I tell people, in every situation, someone's had a different experience that could be perceived as bigger or greater or worse, and they have different skills, probably, right. But it's only relative to what you've experienced. So if my worst day is this big, horrible situation, but your worst day is, you know, maybe your parents got divorced, and I'm not saying that it was.

But as an example, if my worst day was, you know, I watched a building implode, and your worst day was a divorce situation, we both experienced the worst moment for ourselves. And so regardless of which one may be perceived as more horrific, I think it's important to understand relative to your life experience, it could be the worst thing. And it's so important.

I think that's another stigma, right? Not to diminish another person's pain, because it seems so minuscule by comparison. I think that's something that people will do on occasion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, I would say not even on occasion, I would say people tend to minimize other people's experiences. Oh, that's bad. You should have seen what happened to me.

Well, okay, that, you know, like you said, the worst day for a person. That's what they understand as the worst thing. That was their experience.

Now, that doesn't mean that something worse can't happen. And then they can, you know, recenter what their worst is. But, you know, your worst is your worst.

It's like, you're scared as you're scared. The most love you've ever felt is the most love you've ever felt, you know, and it's not really a comparison, you know, it's not something that people should compare against.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, well, it's like, I've known people, and this is a very valid experience, where the worst thing that happened to them was they lost a pet, someone that they had grown up with. And the loss weighed on them in a way that it still affected them years and years into their life, because that stability and that friendship they built with that pet mattered so deeply. And for some people, you could be like, really?

Like, it's an animal, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
I've lost 12 pets.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, but you know, something like that, for someone that built a strong bond with something like that, like a pet is part of your family, it becomes part of, you know, your life. And for some people, that is a huge loss, because there's so much wrapped into it, especially depending on where you are in your life. So, you know, just keep in mind when you're talking about things like depression, it's important not to try to compare your experience with someone else's, your pain with someone else's, you know, your level of happiness, you know, some people say you just don't ever seem happy.

Well, but maybe that is the happiest that they ever need to be that that's their level of happy, you know, so it's just recognizing where we are in our life and what we've experienced doesn't translate to other people's experience.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, and like you said, yeah, in a leadership position, it becomes more difficult. Yeah. Because, you know, obviously, I can't bring that into my team.

I can't bring it into clients. Right? And you think that's a bad week?

No, no. You know? Oh, yeah, let's do this.

You know, I can't be in a sales call and then be like, do you have a few minutes to talk? You know, it's just, you know, so obviously, there there is, you know, situations and that would be true even if it wasn't, you know, if, if, if you're, if you're a cashier, you can't stop the person in line and talk to them, you know, so there's, there's places are safe places to talk. Yeah.

And you should take advantage of those safe places when you when you have them.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, which is one of the things I like, again, being involved with an organization like DST, you build a community, it provides you a place where you can have trusted friends where you can build a safe foundation. And that's not meant to replace other things like we've talked about where you're in a really bad place. If you need to take medication, don't be upset at yourself for that don't diminish that need is very real.

And it's actually the strongest, bravest thing you can choose to do for yourself is to address these things and to get that help and to let people know that's something to be proud of, pretending that you can just shoulder it until it smothers you. That's, that's the worst thing you could do for yourself, right? So compassion and empathy, one of the big things we talked about a lot, it applies so strongly to you as a person, and we forget that.

And that's the thing that a lot of the tenants, you know, that we we have can be very strongly applied to a person, you know, nobility and compassion and empathy and all these things. Mental health is one of the biggest challenges that a person will probably ever face. And everyone faces it, right?

It doesn't always look like the big things we talk about, like bipolar, schizophrenia, or all these really enormous things that people have a hard time working through that lifelong challenges are usually attached to. There's tons of things in between that, you know, we're all going to face at some point. And so being able to recognize that and to get that help is super important, you know, for all of us.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, in America, at least, you know, where we live, and specifically Texas, holy shit, you know, I mean, that is, as a country, as a state, we are failing horribly when it comes to mental health, health, treatment, health. Yeah, I remember when it used to be covered by insurance, and you could, you know, pay your normal deductible and go, but but now it's, you know, it's expensive.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it got overwhelming for them to try and do all the paperwork and the staff necessary to just do the paperwork and the phone calls. And it's a lot that doesn't mean that, you know, it's fair for people to have to suffer for that. But it did get to a point where some some therapy institutions won't even take insurance.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, and, and so I could see where that becomes an issue, too, because let's say you're already depressed, and part of your depression is money issues, you're going to go into one more thing, right? So, yeah, definitely something. And unfortunately, that's something none of us can really do.

[Lilin Lavin]
And yeah, we can vote, we can, you know, tell our politicians, but unfortunately, we can't, we can lean on our HR departments, you know, that's a thing we can do, we can, you know, lean on our politicians, we can push for things in our community, but it doesn't make it happen overnight.

[Tommy Lavin]
No.

[Lilin Lavin]
And when you're in that place, like, like I said, getting up is hard. So the the overwhelming desire to fight these things just isn't there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I can see, you know, there's things that I didn't understand about the like, it does truly feel like forever, you know, it feels like it'll never end. And that was something that even as an early Satanist and stuff like that, I just did not grasp.

I was like, you know, everything has an end, you know, and I used to make those arguments all the time. And I just, you know, until you experience it, it's, it's hard to truly have compassion and to understand what people say when they say it feels hopeless and never ending. You know?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And when you're at that place, that is the time where it's the most important to actually reach out to people that you know, you can trust, because the last thing you want to do is be stuck like that, you know, not have someone that you can share with, because that's when it starts to get worse. So it's good.

I mean, we've had those conversations where, you know, you've said, I don't feel I'm okay, I could deal with it. And then I'll kind of push and say, well, you know, that's an important part of relationship is that we both have to be there for each other. So communication is super important.

And it's annoying. Sometimes I know, I know, I can be annoying with that. But it's it is, it's so easy to forget yourself trying to keep things going that you don't.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, and, you know, so there's, again, there's, like you said, there's, there's people that deal with depression on a chronic, you know, it's a chronic issue. There's, there's, you know, bipolar, where you've got varying degrees of variance, you know.

And then there's also people that just get depression every once in a blue moon. And it's just as important for them to understand that they, you know, to recognize where you're at. And sometimes to say, Hey, I need to talk.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yep. And when you have chronic conditions, like depression, it's important to be honest with people in your life.

We've had conversations, you know, if I start doing these things, this is probably a warning sign that I need you to be pushy with me or I need you. And so it's giving people permission to recognize these things about you and being vulnerable enough to say, this is something that happens. And this is the way I feel when it happens.

And, you know, maybe I need you to do these things. And it gives them permission to know, then it's okay to push, or this is how you want to be treated, or this is the care that you want. And it helps you kind of work through those problems.

And even if it's not frequent, you know, it's something that you occasionally deal with, communicate that too. And maybe that means your partner runs out to the grocery store, grab some bath bombs and some candles. And, you know, you just take that time to let them know they matter in your life.

And that's what it takes to get out. Or sometimes it's like, no, literally, you have to get up, we have bills to pay your response or stuff, because you say, you got to talk a little tougher, you got to remind me what's important. So knowing your limits, and what helps motivate you super freaking important, and then expressing that to other people, so they know, and don't inadvertently say something that makes it worse.

Right, right.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, because that that can be, that can be a challenge to is, you know, when you're trying to help somebody who's going through depression, you obviously don't want to make it worse. And sometimes people will say things that they think are helpful. But it actually piles on and makes a person feel right.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you're already feeling maybe you're triggered by shame, and then you say something that makes them feel more ashamed. Now they're like massively more depressed. And now they feel like they've let you down.

And then so it becomes this like a never ending cycle. And nobody knows, because you can't tell someone what you need in the moment. It's really hard.

So if you're in a relationship with someone, even friendship relationship, because that's a relationship, you know, telling people, obviously, your close friends at this point, but telling people, you know, these are things that happen sometimes. And you know, this is what to look out, this is what to look out for. And this is the best way to help.

And if you're someone like me, you know, I even have stuff tucked aside for just automatically being able to have it for a bad period of time, like a book that I really like, or food that I really like, or I'm a really big bath person. So maybe if I'm feeling super crap, I will put myself in a tub because it's very low effort. And I do feel so much better when I'm done with it.

So it's just different things for different folks. You know, obviously, I'm not saying go out and just do nothing but luxury, treat yourself, do it. But you know, have other things in place, look forward to things plan stuff at different points.

If you are really busy every month, plan for something positive at the end of that month. You know, if you have special days throughout the year, make them big, make them count. Don't go and break the bank, right?

But set yourself up for things to find positivity. It could be hiking routinely, it could be meeting up with your friends for a coffee, it could be, you know, as simple as just having couples massages, you know, three times a year, just little things that you can do to look forward to make a big difference in people's psychological, you know, positivity.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a tough subject. It's a tough subject. And, you know, I do notice that a lot of people shy away from from talking about mental health.

Because it is a tough subject, for one highly stigmatized, highly stigmatized. You don't want to trigger inadvertently trigger somebody by having a conversation. You know, and and again, you you don't want to seem vulnerable.

You know, some people Yeah, you know, that's a common thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and I think societally, it's something we have to work through. It's like, here's another as a parent, you go through pregnancy, people say, Oh, you're not supposed to be happy. It's good.

Well, it's hard. And not everyone talks about how difficult it is. So when you feel like it's difficult, when you feel like it's just a hard thing to go through, you feel like something's wrong with you.

So that can lead to depression. And then having a baby, your body goes into the state of shock, you know, everything's changed, you've gone through this very painful, traumatic experience, your body feels very different. Nobody talks to you about that either.

So the way that you're gonna look at yourself in the mirror and go, Man, I don't like what I'm looking at right now. I don't know if I'll ever be the same as I was before. You know, no one talks about it.

Another really messed up area men and women both deal with as you go through different phases of your life, your hormones change. And the things that you loved before, you don't necessarily love as much anymore. And it affects the way you feel as a person.

Because you can't give your partner certain, you know, things that you used to before you don't feel as, you know, interested in certain activities that and I'm not just talking about sex, like everything is affected by your hormonal state in life, you know, so your activity level changes, then it's time maybe to talk to your doctor, because there are things that you can do to help combat some of these very normal changes that happen in life, but nobody talks about it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, nobody talks about you know, also, you look back at like, you know, obviously, as people age, you know, I know, I'm not the striking young man I used to be still handsome, but whatever, you know, but yeah, it's different. You see the differences in yourself, you know, and and some people are very comfortable with that. And some people are not.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And if dying your hair and and doing things that bring you to a place where you feel more in line with how you think you should look, that's fine. You know, whatever you have to do for self care, that's, that's good.

It's when you start doing excessive things, like maybe you feel a thrill. Yeah, you feel a thrill shopping makes you feel better. Well, if you're breaking the bank, I guarantee you that it's not going to last for very long.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or if you're looking at plastic surgery to fix things that naturally happen, and it becomes an addictive kind of thing. Again, it's okay to do small things that are safe and healthy and don't have negative ramifications like large ones. But if you become someone that needs that to feel like a normal person, then there could be something going on.

And that applies to just about anything in life, you can use sex as a coping mechanism to the point where it becomes a detriment. So you know, just recognizing there's the other part of it, right? Depression can lead to addictive behavior.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I was just about to say, I was about to say, you know, we're kind of going into addiction here, which we did an episode on.

[Lilin Lavin]
So yeah, and that's another place I'll say, I'll go ahead and plug it. Soberfaction is a fantastic place to deal with addictive behavior. And they have a lot of different options for people.

And you don't have to be a satanist to You don't have to be a satanist.

[Tommy Lavin]
And soberfaction also isn't just for drug and alcohol, right? From understanding and from our interview that we did before it is addictive behavior. So it's not just because, again, a lot of people think when when they think soberfaction, their their immediate thoughts are drugs and alcohol.

But my understanding, and correct us if we're wrong. Somebody from soberfaction wants to correct me on this one, please do. My understanding is it is addictive behaviors.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's another thing that leads to depression, right? When you're dealing with addiction, and you slip up because everyone that goes through addiction slips up. It's not that you're a failure.

It's not that you're faulty. It's not that there's something wrong with you. It is a natural part of the process because it became a coping mechanism for a reason.

And you're going to keep encountering those situations in life. You know, struggles don't just stop because we decide that we don't want to use drugs or alcohol or other things to cope with them. Those situations are going to come up again.

It's self medicating, too.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, that's what I mean.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, coping mechanisms could just be, you know, I don't like being around people, I get really anxious. And I found out if I drink, I feel like I can then, you know, calmly relate to people. And I'm totally normal, which is something I've done.

So I'm speaking from experience. But it doesn't make things normal. It just seems seems normal to you, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
But the other people on the outside are kind of like, yeah, you are drunk or whatnot. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And even if you got a coping, like it's a sort of a buzz, and it just makes you feel comfortable. I guarantee you, at some point, you have to up that in order to just get that same, you know, calm state of mind, and then it gets into weird places. So that's just an aspect.

But self medicating with drugs, alcohol is a super normal thing that people do smoking caffeine, you know, things that are readily available, alcohol readily available marijuana, depending on the state, which I still maintain is a better option than drinking. I have a variety of reasons.

[Tommy Lavin]
Absolutely. I will gladly jump on the legalized marijuana. It's it's better than alcohol train.

Yeah, in my personal opinion.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right? I mean, obviously, external substances all come with drawbacks.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes.

[Lilin Lavin]
So I'm not going to pretend that there's a magic cure all out there. There isn't. But, you know, when you're talking about these things, it is normal for people to seek away.

It's not just people. I mean, there are birds that have figured out that there are berries that ferment and make them drunk, and they seek them out intentionally, because they enjoy the sensation. So it is not just limited to human animals.

There are many creatures that have shown that this is something that they do intentionally to try to deal with stressful situations. So it's a natural thing that we all do. And the important thing is recognizing it.

It's just like the depression thing. It's recognizing it, learning how to get ahead of it when you recognize the sensations that are starting to bubbling up. And that just takes time to learn about you and what you need.

We don't always know what we need. We don't always know what we want. So learning to make diaries or to make different plans to kind of check yourself at the door or provide a guideline for other people is a useful way to deal with that.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I think, again, TST as a community, I think, is a great benefit, because a lot of people look at Satanists, even other Satanists, sometimes look at Satanists, and it's this facade of a mask that you put on, oh, I'm a big bad Satanist, nothing bothers me sort of thing. But that's not always true. People, no matter who the person is, will probably at some point in their life run into some sort of depression.

And again, like I said, I felt sad, but the depression part, they were so few and far between that it was kind of hard to recognize those. But I think TST has done a wonderful job of having a community there for Satanists, like you said, people that are often othered. And you want to try and figure out how to say this so that if I fuck this up, know that I didn't mean, you know, there's a lot of, fuck, I don't even know where I was going with that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I think you're saying that there's a lot of different people that are drawn to Satanism for a variety of reasons. And a lot of those reasons often leave you feeling like there's something wrong with you. Society doesn't leave room for people that don't fall into the expected behavioral categories that we've come to know.

That's what I was trying to say.

[Tommy Lavin]
Society in general, your normal society doesn't necessarily have compassion or empathy for people like us, Satanists. They kind of almost look at us like, well, you did it to yourself. Yeah, you deserve that.

You did it to yourself. If you would have been in a good church community, blah, blah, blah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, yeah. Well, like we had this discussion earlier, there wouldn't be an entire educational outlet for religious counselors and therapists if that fixed things. Religion's not a band-aid.

It doesn't fix, or I should say, it is a band-aid. It doesn't fix things. It helps you to heal in certain situations.

And that includes Christianity. It can be a very healing thing for people that use it that way. And they have outlets for dealing with that kind of stuff.

[Tommy Lavin]
But if God was the cure, you wouldn't have any need for Christian counselors.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So exactly. Everyone's going to come into a situation that they feel overwhelmed by.

And that is a normal part of life. It's easy though, because we're taught, I feel we're taught as a society, that failure is a fault of yours. Not being able to make the bills every month, not being able to get the right job, not being able to find the right partner, not having the right house.

All these things are told to us. These are signs of accomplishment, right? So when we don't meet these milestones that society kind of puts out there, it leads to these feelings of depression.

If I didn't get the right education, I'm dumber than so and so. If I didn't get the right job, I'm a failure. If I don't have the right partner, it must be me.

If I'm not satisfactory to my partner, I'm a failure. Instead of understanding, we all encounter this. And it's what we do with those moments that kind of make the difference.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I will say, social media does not help at all. I mean, because you're constantly bombarded on social media with a lot of negativity. And so sometimes it's best to put the phone up and go touch some grass.

Now, I'm not a person that says, get off of social media, blah, blah, blah, blah, because I enjoy social media. It's a useful tool. But there are times where you are just bombarded with negativism or things that are scary or fearful.

I mean, we're going into 2024 and holy fuck what could happen at the end of this year with the election. So when you're constantly bombarded with that, it can bring feelings of helplessness, which can then lead to depression. And so sometimes it's good to put the phone up, go touch some grass.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Turn off the TV, put the phone away, put on some relaxing to you music, or just go out and just be in nature if you can do that. That is such a great way.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Go take a hike in nature. We did that last weekend.

Before it got really cold.

[Lilin Lavin]
We were all, I think, feeling a little in the funk. And I was like, you know what we should do? We should go out to breakfast and we should go outside.

And it turned out to be I did actually feel a lot better after that. Part of me didn't want to. It sounds stupid, but part of me didn't want to.

I was like, you know, but I could just stay in bed and be cozy and it's fine. But it turned out a lot better to go out and actually do that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I think part of the motivation for me too is again, as a parent, I was noticing some depression in my child. And so I was like, you know what we need to do?

Because I wanted to bring her out and I wanted her to have, but by doing that, I also helped myself. That's an awesome benefit. At the same time.

Exactly. Because yeah, I mean, we used to hike all the time and there was times where we lived in different places where it was much easier to hike. Obviously we live in the cement jungle right now.

So it's a little bit difficult, but there are big places out here that you can go hike that aren't all that far off. But I understand some people live in the cement jungle right in the middle of it and it's not easy to do.

[Lilin Lavin]
But that's okay. There are options. Even we talked about this recently with our congregation, free options.

So there's museums, beautiful place to go out and do things. There's zoos. There's a lot of places where you can find beauty and just to take a moment to enjoy things outside of yourself that are helpful.

And maybe that's not helpful for you, but there are different things. There's, you know, like meetup has tons of groups that do things like game nights that do different events, local food groups. There's tons of different things.

Again, you want to set these things up ahead of time. So you've kind of set yourself up a routine of doing things that are for you. But these things help us to combat depressive episodes.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I've noticed, you know, I have seen more people, it seems. And again, this is my perception.

It seems that I've seen more people lately that I know that are going through some sort of depression at what level is different for everybody. But I have seen it. And again, I don't know if that's just our social environment that we're in right now or what, you know, middle of winter sometimes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Seasonal depression is a thing. Yeah. It is the thing.

I, again, that was something that I never really, I have seen you have that, you know, and I don't think my bout of it of depression was seasonal, you know, but I do understand some people do go through seasonal depression. I've always been kind of a nighttime person anyway. So, um, the lack of the sun for me doesn't really do a whole lot, but, and I like the winter.

I like the fall. I actually like arcadian rhythms are a thing, you know? Um, but I do understand that it, it does affect some people and I've heard good things about some of the lights that they had.

I mean, we had a conversation, I forgot who it was with. It might've been on one of the council calls where somebody asked me if, if I had ever used the lights and I hadn't because I needed it, but I have had feedback from people that did and they had good things to say.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. You know, you know, I will, I'll be the first to admit getting a good dose of sun on my face for a little while. It does feel good.

You don't, if I'm having a really hard day at work, go out and take a few minutes to take a breath of fresh air makes a difference, you know, change in environment change of just everything can really be helpful. So, you know, it's okay to stop and take a break. Uh, you know, even if he doesn't feel like you can.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's part of it too, is giving yourself permission. Yeah.

And I think that's one of the things I like about the satanic community, not just TST, but I feel like it's very strong within TST is the freedom to express your struggles. I think we give ourselves more permission because we recognize that this is part of being a human being that, uh, we are gonna have hard times and we try to give permission to one another without fear of judgment, without like having these expectations that a lot of other things will have. But one of the things that talked about sobriety, right?

Um, I think there's a difficult expectation put on people that when you fall, like you have to start over again and you've, you've failed. And I think one of the nice things about the satanic community is it's not seen that way. It's seen as just having part of the process, right?

It's, it's having that moment and recognizing the moment and moving forward from that moment, not going all the way back and starting again. It's not a board game. You know, you don't have to go back to start and work all the way through without collecting your go back to go skip, skip, you know, don't not collect $200.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
So it, life is not that. And the other thing I love about Satanism is we recognize for the most part, there are different factions and groups within Satanism is that this is, this is our one and only life, right? And so taking care of yourself, living to your, your fullest and engaging with people that matter in your life every day, as meaningful way as you can.

Again, we all work, we have lives. It's sometimes just sending a text, letting someone know that they matter to you. But we understand that this is the experience.

This is it. And to do the most we can with each day is kind of the point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, indulgence, whatever you want to call it, but like you said, that's, and that was the part that I always had the hardest time with because, and I think it's because I became a Satanist at such a young age that I had always had the mindset of this is it, this is all we get, you know, this life that we're giving right here, there's no glorious,

[Lilin Lavin]
you know, maybe there is, but from my perspective, that's from a beautiful fantasy, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
From my belief that, and I would, I don't make decisions based off of this glorious fantasy life that, you know, a lot of people believe in, I have always believed, this is what we get, this one, make the most of it. And, and, you know, understand where you're at. And mindfulness.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, yeah, was was dialectic behavioral therapy is something that's made a massive impact in my life, dbt. And it talks a lot about mindfulness. And that just means recognizing yourself in the moment.

So when you find yourself having a great moment, you can use it because it's a great way to recognize and repeat different positive things, right? But it's super important for anger issues for depression issues for anxiety, recognizing what's happening in that moment to kind of deconstruct it and work through it so that you come out of it in a positive way. So I really love that.

[Tommy Lavin]
It was it was one area when the out of, you know, Buddhists use a lot of mindfulness, it's a big part of the Buddhist. And so when I studied some of, you know, the teachings, and you know, when I studied Buddhism for a little while, more, and when I say study, I mean, literally just study, it was the one great takeaway that I took from it was mindfulness. Yeah, you know, truly being aware.

And a lot of that also came from martial arts for me is because, you know, they, that's another awesome thing you can do.

[Lilin Lavin]
Again, I understand finances is difficult for people. And I'm not telling you to put yourself in a bad financial place. But if you can enroll in some kind of a martial art, not only do you learn useful skills, but it provides you with the endorphins from the exercise and skills that you may not even know or accompanying yoga or tai chi or whatnot, going to the gym, just practicing, recognizing your form, feeling your body, same kind of thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
So there's different things. But you know, like I was saying, the tenants themselves, if you're in TST, if you're that kind of Satanist, you know, compassion, empathy, include you. So recognizing to treat yourself with the same kindness and empathy that you would for other people.

And depression is not a weakness. It is just a phase that you know, people go through that happens and you recognize it and you do what you can with it. And you move through it.

There isn't a right or wrong way. Oh, I mean, there's a wrong way. There's not a right or wrong way to process those feelings, provided that you're not causing harm to yourself or others.

The struggle for justice, this could mean talking to people, you know, seeking justice with a doctor, fighting for medical care, you know, getting the things that you need, in person relationships, making sure that you're advocating for yourself, setting healthy boundaries, bodily autonomy, that also means mental health, supporting the idea of seeking therapy, medication, lifestyle changes, things that help benefit your well being and your mental health, expressing one struggles, being able to discuss mental health challenges without fear of judgment, with openness, being critical of yourself, you know, if you're having things recognizing what you're doing to contribute, aligning beliefs with your scientific understanding, you know, we talked about that a lot, but that applies to evidence based treatment.

Yeah. So not trying to use things because it sounds cool, or because it's the new hip thing to do, recognizing that there are approved methods of dealing with certain things for a reason, and challenging that where it's not fitting. So not one size fits all, acknowledging fallibility, you know, recognizing that it's okay to have difficult days or weeks or months, and nobody's expected to be perfect.

[Tommy Lavin]
No.

[Lilin Lavin]
So that's another area fallibility can reduce self imposed pressure and guilt often associated with depression. Guilt is a huge trigger for depression. And then, of course, the inspiring ability and coping with mental health challenges, working through mental health issues is itself a noble endeavor.

So personal growth, resilience to pursue pursuit of mental wellness is a valuable, honorable journey. It's not something that is to be brushed aside and treated like it doesn't matter. It is the most important thing you could arguably do for yourself.

Absolutely. So there's my little take on where the seven tenets are applied to mental health.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, I honestly think that is probably a great place to to stop at. You know, and just again, if you're if you're feeling depressed, you know, no, you're not alone. No, there's a community out there.

And don't sell yourself short.

[Lilin Lavin]
We all go through this at one point or another. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. It just means that there's things to work through.

And that's okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So with that, I bid you good day. Good evening.

Good morning. Wherever you're at in the world. Hail Satan.