Ep.3: Love, Sex, and Relationship Dynamics in Satanism

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.3: Love, Sex, and Relationship Dynamics in Satanism

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Hello, listeners. So today, we're going to start off a little different.

We've gotten some questions. And one question that we've gotten a couple times is, you know, how are relationships for Satanist? I imagine when most people envision Satanist and like relationships, they kind of envision like we're having this 24-7 orgy or something like that.

That would be a stereotype. Yes, definitely very, very much a stereotype. And although I'm sure there are a couple.

Hey, yeah, and do your thing. You know, it's not necessarily really the norm sort of thing. I would say for Satanist, the most important thing when it comes to a relationship is consent.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely.

[Tommy Lavin]
And consent of all parties.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And that brings up an interesting perspective. So when you say all parties, what does that mean?

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, all parties means if it is a dual person relationship. So like a typical husband, wife, monogamous, you know, husband, wife, husband, husband, wife, wife. So a typical one-on-one partnership.

Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
A monogamous relationship.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes. Or if it's more open.

[Lilin Lavin]
So like, we don't have any rules or values or anything about it?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no rules are all out the window. But you know, you do bring up a very important point, because again, that is where consent comes in. You know, if you have a relationship, well, even if you have a relationship with two people, there's still boundaries.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it doesn't matter if you have a relationship with an entire polycule. It's all about what have you talked about between every individual involved in the relationship. And when you have a relationship of that nature, obviously, there will be varying degrees of relationship expectation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, yes. But you know, there are a lot, there's a lot of satanists out there that are, you know, single or monogamous type relationship, satanist, monogamous, monogamy.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yes, there are there are a lot of incredibly, like straightforward monogamous people. And then there are a wide variety of everything in between. All the way down to just single folks that enjoy companionship from time to time or folks that don't enjoy sexual interaction at all.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the total spectrum from asexual, all the way up is, you know, pretty much covered. And again, it all comes back down to consent.

What are you comfortable with? And what is your partners or partners comfortable with as well? And what have you all all agreed on?

Because if somebody's out of the loop and not agreed, that's when bad things happen.

[Lilin Lavin]
And you're technically then lying to some that's not cheating, definitely still happens, even in open relationships or poly type relationships, cheating absolutely still happens. And you know, some folks might say, Well, how can you cheat on somebody when you can sleep with whoever you want? Well, that's not typically how that works.

Usually, you know, you let your partners know what your boundaries and expectations in a relationship are. And then anything outside of that is still cheating.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right, right. And that is a really good point. Because a lot of people think that in poly type relationships that that, like you said, how can you cheat if you're, you know, if you have a girlfriend, or you're allowed to sleep with somebody else, and it's just that you agreed with whoever's involved in that relationship, a set of boundaries and rules.

And if you say, like, your agreement was with Mike and Sarah, and you're seeing Jenny on the side and not telling Mike and Sarah about it, and you're lying, and you're sneaking around, that's cheating, still cheating. Yep. That that's, you know, you're breaking consent, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Whereas if you're with Mike and Sarah, and it's like, we are not going to hold you to any specific things. And if you want to have other relationships, that's fine. But I'd like you to let me know just for safety considerations.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why it's important to have consent because of the safety aspect of it. If you believe that you're in a, you know, let's pretend it's a husband, wife relationship, and you are under the impression that it's a monogamous relationship, and that person steps outside of that relationship and doesn't tell you and winds up getting an STI, right, they've exposed you, and they expose you because you didn't know to protect yourself.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. So it's important that you say your expectations. And it's not to say poly is the only other option type.

There's people that are swingers, there's people that are incredibly open without any definitive, definitive guidelines. There's people that are, you know, there's a lot of different types of relationships. And that's not just Satanists that have these kinds of relationships.

It's just sexual liberation tends to go hand in hand, provided you're following. I mean, we beat it to death, but the consent rules because, you know, can you ever really say consent too much?

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't I don't think you can. I mean, we could have literally wrapped the show up in 30 seconds. What does the satanic relationships about and just said consent?

Okay, thanks, guys. Have a good day. You know, but we thought we'd expand on it at least a little bit, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
And and we can't speak from other people's perspectives. Obviously, I'm not in a, you know, LGBTQ type relationship. At this point in my life, we are in a very heteronormative relationship structure, where it's mostly just monogamous.

But you know, I can't speak for a gay couple. And I can't speak for people that are swingers or anything like that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And like you said, you know, for the most part, our relationship is monogamous. And we both kind of said for the most part, because you know, we do have a slight rule that, you know, if we meet a female become friends with her, and everybody's kind of getting along, then we're open to having a girlfriend and have had a couple that but because everybody was open and honest about it, they all when they naturally ended, like, you know, a lot of relationships naturally end, it wasn't a bad ending. It wasn't like screaming, shouting, somebody's leaving and stuff like that, you know, I mean, went bowling with the kids and all of that sort of stuff.

It was the relationship just reached a natural end that person either moved on, or they wanted something a little bit different in their life.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And because in our situation, we are not necessarily looking for an additional full time partner, it leaves it open for folks that are just looking to hang out with some folks and have some fun. And it's not to say I still occasionally to chat with some of the folks that we've been involved with before that, you know, we're still friends still hang out.

But you know, it's just not sexual at this point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. And probably wouldn't be again, just because of the the way that you know, they change their life. Well, I don't know, maybe who knows, you never know where life will take you.

Never say never. Never say never.

[Lilin Lavin]
But that's the important thing is that you are flexible enough to be open to different situations, maybe. But you also have a very clear understanding of what does a relationship mean for me in my life? And what do I need out of, you know, you as a partner, and being very, very clear, if you have any kind of open relationship dynamic, that does not mean, you know, my partner cheated on me.

And now I think we should open our relationship. That's no, don't do that. Um, you know, I'm not gonna say don't do that, if that's gonna work for you, but if you're changing your life dynamic, because you feel pressured into it, or because you're trying to appease somebody, that's probably not going to end well.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. One, like you said, don't don't change it just because of a single person in the relationship wants that change, especially if you're highly against it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right? You know, I think that's a danger when you're in a toxic situation, right? The person will say, oh, I'm suggesting that we do this.

And all the while they were thinking about doing it, they have somebody specific in mind. And that's incredibly unfair.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, because they've already kind of had the chance to go out there trim the herd, that whole thing, they got somebody set aside, basically on standby. And, and in a way, they've already committed that act. I mean, if you're gonna count as thoughts, I don't, I don't really count thoughts, but not necessarily thoughts.

But the the action of, you know, I don't know, I guess it depends on how far down the road that got before you started talking about it.

[Lilin Lavin]
If they messed around, and you didn't know about it. Oh, yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's a problem. Definitely.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you thought about it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the other thing to remember, too, because this is where a lot of other people kind of mess up is when they meet satanist or anybody in a poly sort of relationship, they think, oh, this person's poly. Oh, that means that they just, you know, jump in bed with anybody, or they sleep with anybody.

And then they like triangle right in on it.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it's like, No, no, no, that doesn't, you know, and I'm not trying to slut shame at all. There's nothing wrong with enjoying sex and being a sexual person. We're all sexual beings to some degree.

Again, asexual people, maybe not so much, but some of them still enjoy cuddling and closeness and, and things of that nature. So there are different varying degrees of I'll still call it intimacy. Because if I'm cuddling with somebody, that's still for me a satisfying activity.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's it. That can be intimacy. Definitely.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But I also love hugs. And I don't look at that as intimate, but certain hugs can certainly still be intimate.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, it gets, it gets to a point where it becomes a bit obvious if it's intimate or not, you know, you know, and, you know, our, our situation was a little bit different as I'm, you know, a cis man that I'm straight, you know, don't be using that sys alert. Am I going to get banned? Most ridiculous shit ever.

Elon, here's this podcast. Am I going to get banned for saying that? You can suck my ass too.

And Lillen, you're, you're bi.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. I'm bi. I'm probably more pansexual, really.

Because it's not so much looks. It's a whole package thing for me. And I don't, you know, it's how do I feel being around you?

Well, you know, who are you as a person? And do we mesh as people? Not so much like, dude, look at that hot chick.

I mean, yeah, I definitely still see people as attractive, but there's so much more like, I can see the most attractive person ever. And then they do something really awful. And I'm like, there that one.

[Tommy Lavin]
I could agree with that. There could be a really, really hot girl. And, you know, she either said something or does something.

And it's like, totally lost all attraction. Yeah. To that person.

It's got to be a whole package for me. But you know, ours was after we talked. Oh, yeah.

Lengthily. Lengthy. Yes, very lengthy.

[Lilin Lavin]
Because you were never really into the whole, initially, you hadn't really thought about it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, I've always been pretty much a monogamous guy. And I've been a Satanist for going on 30 years, you know, but it's just what I was comfortable with.

[Lilin Lavin]
Which is fair.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, you know, there was aspects that you were missing, because obviously, I'm not a female.

[Lilin Lavin]
So there's certain things that you in fact are not, not to say that there's lacking in the way that like sex is fantastic. But there's aspects of just intimacy with a woman that's very different from intimacy with a man for me.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And seeing as I'm not bi, I don't find men attractive. So we came up with a an agreement that worked for our relationship.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And that's the key. There's going to be a different dynamic for everyone.

I know a lovely woman who has two husbands, and they're all very happy. And obviously, I don't live with them. But they every time I've seen, they look very happy.

They all seem to be they found a really enjoyable relationship structure that works for them. And they're incredibly happy. They've been together for years now.

[Tommy Lavin]
So we always have to preface everything with they seem incredibly happy, because we watch enough true crime shows that they're always like, they were the happiest couple. And then he started killing people, you know, or something like that. They were the happiest couple ever.

Little did they know he was eating people. Yeah, you know, so yeah, I mean, but we've, we've definitely had friends of all, all types on the spectrum. And, and that's okay.

That's the thing about satanists is generally we're okay with any of that. And even if even if your relationship is just you, you want to be single by yourself, and you're, you know, you're on the ace spectrum, that's okay.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and to be clear, ace people aren't just single people. They do still love relationships.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, yes. But you know, what I was trying to say is no matter what, as long as there's consent, then satanists are generally going to be pretty cool with it. And again, and I want to make this very, very clear, because you know, there's all sorts of things out there with Christians say and thing and all of that sort of stuff.

Consent can only come from an adult.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. I don't care what anyone else wants to say, you need to be a full ass adult 18 or hopefully more. Obviously, I'm definitely not close to 18.

So for me, I would not feel comfortable with such a vast age discrepancy.

[Tommy Lavin]
I would agree with that. But yes, so no satanists are not grooming children. Satanists have actually some of us groom dogs, but that's not that's bad, because there was a Twitter post.

[Lilin Lavin]
Okay, we're not talking about that disgusting shit. I meant literally cutting their hair.

[Tommy Lavin]
Okay. So, you know, but satanists are not out there looking and grooming children or anything like that. Satanists actually have and this, this counts across the board, you know, and when I say satanists on this one, I'm talking TST, the satanic temple, Church of Satan, Temple of Set, every left hand path organization that I have ever interacted with is has a very strict Luciferianism.

Yeah, has a very, very strict, no minors, no children. And it's not, I'll tell you this much the difference between the, you know, the Christian, the Catholic and all them, they they have this forever forgiveness or whatever that they have, and they move the person you get caught as a pedophile in satanism, you are banned. I mean, you're like blacklisted, and there is no forgiveness.

[Lilin Lavin]
So maybe it's a little touchier for me, because I had to deal with that personally. But I have Yeah, zero interest in having you in my space. It's just better for you.

Honestly, if as a pedophile, you just stay the frick out of my space. Yeah, nothing kind to know. So no, that's and getting off that that's, you know, another reason why being able to talk about relationship dynamics is so important.

And I think because of some of the things I experienced in my life, I had a lot of guilt and shame and fear involved in even understanding what my own sexuality was, you know, I didn't understand whether or not it was just misplaced affection. Because that's the thing when you're a survivor of, you know, assault, especially as a child, you have to learn about different dynamics. And so you have to learn what feelings mean what, and that's tricky, and learning how to be comfortable with your own body and sexual, like sexual behavior, period.

You know, it, I'm not ashamed to say that for the longest time, in my personal sexual life, it was very difficult for me to enjoy certain aspects of sex because of hang ups that I had and fears that I had. And, you know, flashbacks that I dealt with on a routine basis, and it would be nothing of anyone's fault, but things that I would just have to to work through in order to be able to just enjoy sex, period.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, again, and as we, you know, partner, we've been together for a very long time. You know, we've been able to grow through and I can understand certain areas that you're coming from, you know, because we've had those types of conversation, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
It's still hard, though. It's hard. I think for you, it has to be difficult, because, you know, you don't want to cause issues, but then it's hard, because how do you broach certain things?

Or how do you talk about certain things? From your perspective, that has to be difficult.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it can be, you know, definitely can be. But I think over the years, I've learned, I know, when we first got together, I, you know, I was probably a stumbling idiot when it came to, you know, talking about some subjects and, you know, whether I even handle reactions right or not. But yeah, I mean, we're a little bit off.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. But I mean, that has to do a lot with when it comes to people have questions about what kind of things that make up a sexual relationship for a Satanist, because I think they assume the things you see on movies, or the weird conversations, maybe that you find in the dark corners of Reddit or something, you know, that we just willy nilly go out and do whatever we want. We don't have typical relationships.

And some of us don't. I hate the word typical. But you know what I mean?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Where it's like this average husband, wife, and you know, the kids and whatever they say, well, that doesn't make sense. These folks don't live that way. Yes, yes, we do.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And we know other Satanists that are, you know, there are other suburban Satanists that have children and husband wife relationship. And again, and we know other Satanists that have polypod of like 10 people.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't know why that made me think of Polly Pocket. So I apologize.

[Tommy Lavin]
But yeah, I mean, you know, so it does really come down to to being honest and consent. And here's the other thing that about consent that Satanists take very seriously. And this kind of goes into I argue this a lot on on women's rights on on Twitter, where I'm arguing with the women against the men is consent can be removed at any time.

Absolutely. So it doesn't matter if you started in on something or or whatnot. If at any point, any person decides, no, I don't want to do this anymore.

consent has then been broken. And that activity stops.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Or else it's, you know, yeah, there's none of this.

[Lilin Lavin]
The wife is supposed to make the husband happy because you know, my religious beliefs tell me so No, that's just asked backwards.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no, there is no, you know, I'm in the mood, you're not in the mood. Well, tough shit. The Bible says that you're my property, and I'm gonna have sex anyway.

So I mean, it is it is literally, you know, when whenever, you know, we have sex, it's totally consensual.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, well, that's what I also like about being in a satanic community. For the most part, I think people are incredibly open about talking about things like this. And people don't tend to shame individuals, you know, you run into shitty people in every single facet of humanity.

So of course, I'm sure it's happened. But for the most part, it's incredibly liberating to be around people that don't hold specific traditional values around sexuality, and don't make you feel like weird or inappropriate or judge you for things. It's a lot of people are excellent listeners and very supportive and open minded to considering different ways of life and sexuality, I think it's really high on the list of things people are incredibly open minded about and consider it about.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the other part about consent to goes with women in the way that they dress or don't dress, you know, just because there's a woman around you and her her top is off or something like that does not mean that you have consent. So I always argue consent like this.

Yes is yes. Anything else is no. So silence is a no, a shy away is a no, a no is a no, unless you get a yes, it is no.

And and we are very strict about that. Now. That's I'm not going to say every Satanist is like that.

I'm not going to say there's not assholes in say, you know, Satanism. I will say from my experience, in different organizations, the the longer an organization has survived, the better they seem to be able to flesh these things out, you know, early on, they're still sort of learning. And, you know, I can tell you early on TST had some issues with a lot of harassment internally.

But I can tell you because I'm part of a committee that that, you know, deals with this sort of stuff. Now, that shit isn't isn't tolerated. If you know, somebody is sexually harassing a person in TST, and it gets reported, it gets investigated.

And there's actually consequences.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And that's how it should be. And it's not to say that people didn't take it seriously before.

But you know, I don't even know if everyone knew how to deal with some of those just different things that naturally happen in certain environments.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, every organization has to grow, and they have to learn, you know, rules, how do we investigate? You know, how do you tell who's telling the truth, all of that sort of stuff. So, you know, young organizations, it takes a little bit of time to get things right.

But I do believe that at least I can say from what I've witnessed with my own two eyes, TST has done a very good job of fixing that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I'm, you know, I think it's not necessarily even fixing, it's just learning how to appropriately address and, and have some kind of structure in place to to deal with those things once they've been identified. So I think that's wonderful to see that kind of stuff. But it happens, you know, in all kinds of organizations, unfortunately, some just tend to move people around or excuse things or come up with different reasons why it's not that big of a deal.

It's always a big deal. People should never be made to feel uncomfortable or sexually coerced into something, if that's not their intention. And I think you made a really good point when you said shy away if someone shies away, and they don't respond as another thing that people that are either intimidated or have been through abusive situations, sometimes they're afraid to say something, especially if they're early on in dealing with some of that, and not saying anything can be a sign of intimidation, not necessarily shyness.

And so it's important to kind of question things and try to understand what a person is going through instead of just assuming.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, you have to at least use your brain and try and read people's body language as well. And I said that whether you're a satanist or not, I mean, that's just being a good person is, you know, if somebody's shying away, why, you know, there's probably a reason there. And like you said, it could be that they're still dealing with the early on trauma of an assault, and, and they've mentally locked up or something like that, you know, so people are just shy, and some people are just awkward about stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
So I mean, I'm not saying that's what it means 100% of the time. It's just sometimes when people shut down, it's because they don't feel comfortable in a situation and it's protective mechanism.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the other thing is drunk, if somebody can be definitely too drunk to consent, there goes for both people.

[Lilin Lavin]
Like if it's two men, two women, a man, a woman, either person is just as able to be beyond consent. It always takes advantage. There's definitely situations where it goes the other way.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, there is. You know, I kind of look at it as if one person is sober or just about sober, you know, maybe slightly buzzed, and the other person is blacked out drunk, that person that's blacked out drunk cannot consent. It doesn't matter if they're a man or a woman at all.

And if they cannot consent, and you push yourself on them, you have committed an assault and period, end of story. I really don't care what your experience or excuses.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. No, you don't get to abuse other people just because you have a funny feeling in your pants. You know, yeah, I guess that's the important things I wanted to discuss was just, yes, we still have relationships like everyone else, they're just a little bit more usually supportive, and they're able to be more sexually uninhibited.

You know, that doesn't mean that there isn't absolutely still people that deal with different variable degrees of being I don't know what you want to call it, where they're more traditional. And that's fine, too. I think for the most part, our relationship is pretty traditional and relatively monogamous.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Ours definitely is, you know, it, it does take the right person to, you know, to, it takes time to get to know, for me, I would rather get to know someone over time. It's not to say that I haven't met someone and, and there's been interest expressed, and everyone's like, okay, this seems cool. And then yeah, we get to know the person better.

And things go from there. But other times, it's nice to get to know a person and develop a friendship.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, your best relationships are friends. Anyway, whether the friendship came first or after, I would say in my life that you are my best friend.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, you're mine too. mushy, mushy.

[Tommy Lavin]
But honestly, I mean, you're probably one of my only friends. I'm an asshole.

[Lilin Lavin]
But you know, true. No, he's actually really fun.

[Tommy Lavin]
But he tends to be just, you know, yeah, I'm like, you know, tombstone Doc Holliday, where they're like, Well, hell, I got lots of friends. And Doc Holliday is like, I don't, you know, but yeah, I mean, I think, again, that's, I know a lot of people, they asked this question, we get asked this question all right, all all the time.

[Lilin Lavin]
So yeah, we did get married. We've been married now for almost 25 years.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep.

[Lilin Lavin]
And, you know, so definitely, we were both very young when we met. Yeah, it worked out good, though, because it was nice to be able to grow with somebody. And for me, that worked.

I'm not saying everybody run out, you know, as a younger person and jump into a relationship. But I enjoyed it because I feel like we've grown together. And we've actively worked to grow together, not so much like people have their own lives and doing their own thing.

We frequently check in with each other and actually work to maintain a healthy relationship. Not to say it's perfect all the time. Not to say we haven't had plenty of our fair shares of issues, because we definitely have.

It's normal to have issues between two people. It's not normal not to try and deal with them in a way that is equitable for all people involved.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, Satanists will tend to talk to each other and try and work things out versus going into the room and praying.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, yeah. For some people may pray when I get angry. But yeah, no, definitely.

[Tommy Lavin]
Kids run and hide and lock their doors.

[Lilin Lavin]
Like we haven't had arguments. I think arguments are normal. It's like if things are being thrown across the room, maybe that's not so normal, which thankfully, that's not unless you're a Klingon.

I mean, that's a whole different. That's not even fair. That's not a real thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
We don't know how many of our users actually know what it is. So they might not know the whole and I read poetry to hurls hurls hurls things. I know that.

Yeah, big Star Trek fans. So if you haven't guessed that kind of, um, yeah, I mean, so but back to the original, you know, everything does kind of go around consent, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
But it's like, some people get married, and some people don't. And some people stay in long term committed relationships. And some people just have different relationships.

And some people live in a mixed relationship. So I mean, I know people of all different stripes, and there isn't one right or wrong way, as long as everyone's respecting one another. And you know, if you have kids, your kids do.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you have to respect your kids as well. And everything is, you know, age appropriate.

[Lilin Lavin]
Obviously, you're not doing a bunch of weird stuff around your kids. That would be really messed up.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that'd be horrible.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right?

[Tommy Lavin]
That's, that's like, you know, you should go to jail sort of shit, you know? So obviously, you know, as kids get older, when they become teenagers, kids, your kids are smarter than you think they are, you know, so, you know, kids are gonna figure out stuff one way or the other.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, so it is important to well, like, for instance, if you're the kind of folks that are okay with open relationships, and if you're gonna have people around your kids, you should know who those people are, you should know that they're safe. And you know, if your kid feels uncomfortable or expresses discomfort about anybody that's in their space, you should ask them why and, and figure out whether or not this is something that needs to be addressed with the other person, because if they're doing things to make them uncomfortable, that's a big, huge issue. And I won't keep people in my life that make my kids uncomfortable.

[Tommy Lavin]
Nope, nope, I will walk their ass out the door so damn quick, they won't even know what hit them.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, that. But you know, yeah, everything comes down to even with your family, that's a type of consent, where you're definitely making sure that everyone in your family feels safe and comfortable and knows that they can come to you if they have concerns about anything happening in their house, concerns, questions, any questions or anyone.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that's the whole and again, everything age appropriate.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. And there's definitely age appropriate ways to discuss everything from when a child is little all the way up to when they're an adult, and you're much more of a relative equal with the other person. So we've always been very upfront about anything they want to know, talk to us and we have very few awkward conversations.

It's more just naturally things will come up in a conversation and then you keep it strict to the basic answer unless they want elaboration.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I mean, we have kids that are adults, like, you know, adult adults. And then we have, you know, kid that's teenage, you know, so again, but in order to get there, they went through all phases of life, you know, and that's another question maybe for another day.

[Lilin Lavin]
But you know, how do you parent?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I think parenting will be its own.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Again, people have many weird assumptions with that, just like they do with relationships. So yeah, that's to answer the questions that we've had, we have normal relationships.

And normal means we base our relationships on consent, we engage with other people and respect one another and are open about our sexual desires, hopefully, because if you're not, then it leads to very unfulfilling sexual relationships. And we don't have a ton of hang ups related to God peeping in on our window.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, we don't we don't believe that we have angels looking down on us. You know, while we're while we're having sex. I mean, I guess I saw that there was a meme the other day.

And I was like, wow, God and angels are voyeurs. I didn't realize that they're actually sitting there.

[Lilin Lavin]
And apparently Santa.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, put on a show for him. You know, I mean, if you've got if you've got 1000s of angels looking in on you while you're having sex, they can pay for it if they want to watch.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm sorry, this is not a freebie. Seriously, this is my only fans, feel free to pay up if you want to watch me. No, I don't actually have one.

I'm not opposed to it. But I'm sorry, I don't give freebies out even to fictitious deities or their angelic friends.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no, not at all. See, I don't you know, I don't know if there's a lot more that we can cover on on this. I mean, I think we answered at least the question that we got and the questions that do come up.

You know, I know people come a lot of times when people meet Satanists at a congregation or something like that the first time, you know, they do kind of shy away a little bit. You know, and the question obviously gets asked when there's big gatherings, is there nudity? And is there orgies and stuff like that?

[Lilin Lavin]
Sometimes there are, but again, it's a consent related thing. But I mean, we've been to events that has had nudity or partial nudity. And again, it's not like people are just running up and groping people.

It's incredibly structured. And there's definite rules you could tell people even don't like to look directly. When another person is nude, you'll notice that it's more like face or feet.

Yeah, you know, people try to respect boundaries of other people's bodies all the way across. Unless the person's like, I don't give a crap if you look and then it's still you have to be respectful because you know, there's still boundaries.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between looking and gawking. Yeah. You know, and also any that this is the other one of the other reasons why a lot of satanic organizations won't let anybody under 18 join.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, usually before there's anything that's sexual nature, there's a whole process and procedure that has to be put in place. And it's incredibly structured.

And if that's going to take place, it's usually not a surprise. That would be a big no no.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. And and in, you know, in a lot of places, if there's going to be nudity and stuff like that, it's 21 and up. You know, it's it's very, very strict, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
On like any other place that has nudity, there's expectations around behavior, alcohol or drugs, you know, sexual appropriate behavior, touching and STD prevention. Yeah, there's it is a litany of things that one must I've never done a sexually explicit event. I've gone to sexually explicit events before.

I've never hosted one myself hosting being like part of a congregation thing. Some people would do burlesque shows, some people have just different events that involve sexuality to that degree. And it is incredibly there's a whole list of things you have to fill out.

And it's very detailed.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, it is it is based again, and like I said, I don't think we can say consent enough times. It is everything based around consent.

[Lilin Lavin]
You look at things like lubricalia, where you celebrate sexuality and just enjoying oneself for you know, your partners. It's something where if you're going to have events, there's a lot of things that have to be ironed out. And it usually takes months before an event like that.

And it's super built around making sure all parties are safe. Everything's consensual and secure.

[Tommy Lavin]
And yeah, so you know, you're not going to show up at a satanic book club. And all of a sudden, you know, about 15 minutes in the lights are going to go off and we actually read books. So that is not the way that any satanic organization I have ever been a part of.

And I've been a part of quite a few has ever worked.

[Lilin Lavin]
Again, they're all you do ever find yourself in a situation where someone leads you to believe that that's normal. It's not I'm going to be the first to tell you it's not leave.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. No, there's no part of Satanism where you are forced to be naked. There is no part where you are forced into sexual expectations.

Even if you're doing a ritual like a black mass, where a lot of times there is a nude altar, that is voluntary. So there is no part of a satanic organization that says, Oh, you by the way, Carrie, you're gonna have to be the nude altar tonight, right? No answer.

[Lilin Lavin]
So it's all voluntary. A person has to literally volunteer. And if you don't have one, suck it up, you're gonna have to figure out a different way to do that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep. And if anybody ever tells you that it's obligatory, leave right away, run, run, tell somebody leave and tell somebody and I mean, contact if you're part of an organization like TST, you should have seen something called a code of conduct. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And if if you read through that code of conduct, there's usually some very strict criteria about behavior. And that's another thing that's important. If you're involved with anything like that, a lot of them have congregation heads.

And those individuals are responsible for their actions and the way that they put themselves out there. And if they're making you feel sexually uncomfortable or doing things that you find to be sexually inappropriate, you should probably talk to somebody about that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I can say from from the organizations I have experience with if you're in TST, if you're ever put in a situation like that, or you're sexually harassed or anything like that, you start with your chapter heads, if your chapter or I'm sorry, congregation heads so that I've been in TST for so long, I still call them chapter. They're now congregations. You start with the congregation head, if you don't get a satisfactory.

[Lilin Lavin]
Unless the congregation had, if the congregation had did it, you'd go outside of that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, if the congregation head is doing it, then you go outside of that. And if the congregation head isn't doing anything about it, then you go outside of there is a next step level process. If you're in CLS, then you know, again, reported to either a priest, a magister, or, you know, the, the main office, temple of set, same sort of thing, you know, goes to a pylon leader or priestess, priest or priestess, or a magister, or the high priest.

So they all have these very strict rules around this sort of stuff. And so you should never be forced into a that you do not want to be. And they all have some sort of code of conduct that you agree to and basic behavioral expectations.

Yep. And, and they're normally pretty damn strict about those things.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think we've ruined all the weird expectations people have about now.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I think so. You know, so all the people that thought, you know, it was all of this other stuff. No, that's really just Christians lying.

[Lilin Lavin]
And those, those are a lot of bad Christians, it's not to say that we're not a group of people that again, we support all manner of gender identity, which is not sex, not the same thing at all. Not at all. We support sexuality, healthy sexuality being the only type of sexuality that we support, whether it's somebody that's interested in, in BDSM, or what everything revolves around doing things of healthy, consensual mindset.

Yes. And yeah, maybe we have better tips on the sex store you can go to if you're looking for a specific kind of vibrator, but that is not that is not a bad thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, you know, and and we can, you know, we can definitely give tips and hints and things like that about all sorts of stuff. But you know, like, like you said, that's, that's not a bad thing. You know, and it is, it does have to stay consensual, right?

That is that is the really important part, because a lot of people get messed up, they see nudity, and they forget that nudity does not mean consent, right? nudity just means somebody was comfortable enough to take the top or bottoms off and walk around. That does not mean you get to touch your grope or or gawk.

[Lilin Lavin]
Now, and I can't speak to other events, because I haven't been to every single thing. But everything that I've ever been to where nudity was involved, everyone was super respectful.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So but yes, there's there's definitely rules. And and we are a pretty normal.

I mean, other than that, we're a pretty normal couple. Pretty, pretty normal. I mean, if you look at our our family from the outside, you wouldn't know other than the fact that I'm going to be wearing like a Hail Satan shirt or something like that.

And, you know, we've we fly the LGBTQ plus flag outside, you know, pride flag outside. Yeah, yeah, trans included. We inclusive inclusive.

Yeah. You know, and but other than that, it's not like, you know, driving by the house. So you ever know if you met us at the grocery store, you know, again, we're normal people, we really are normal.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's so subjective.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But it's, you know, about your environment. And I don't think for the most part, people would be put off unless they're going to choose to judge based on an exterior indicator, like a shirt or jewelry, or whatever. Yeah, we lead average lives, I would think we get up in the morning, we do our work, we make dinner, we deal with homework, we have to do school pickups and drop offs and all the boring crap that everybody else has to do.

And, yeah, and in that time, we also find time to make conversation with one another and do things that keep relationships alive. Because if you don't try to interact with each other, then I think it kind of ruins your relationship, you forget about taking care of one another as far as people, not just the sex part.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I will say that one thing I do tend to notice about satanists in relationships is they they do have a more healthy sex life, you know, between even between each other, right? They seem to because they're comfortable enough to talk about their wants, their desires, the things they like, they don't like and all that.

[Lilin Lavin]
That doesn't mean quite a few people had to deconstruct a lot of crap to get there. Because we come from all variety of backgrounds. And just because you're not necessarily part of a Abrahamic faith now doesn't mean that you weren't part of one.

And it doesn't mean those stigmas didn't stick on to you and leave lasting negative impacts for your intimate life. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So well, yeah, I mean, I think we've pretty much beat this one to death. You know, if you do have questions for us on this or other subjects, please do, you know, reach out to us, send us a tweet, tag us on Twitter or, or, you know, email us or something like that. Your questions if we get good questions, we'll we'll read them and we'll answer them.

You know, I'm kind of looking forward to being able to get more questions in and answer them. We have a lot of topics to talk about. But it's also kind of cool to get questions and you know, just kind of do a topic off the fly.

[Lilin Lavin]
And the same thing I've told people in meetings or whatever, when we do meet individuals, you're not probably going to ask me anything I haven't heard before. If you do, I will let you know. But we don't tend to shy away from things provided they're not rude, crude, or inappropriate.

There's just things that you don't ask people. And if you ask me and it's a douche question, I'm going to tell you that you're being a douche.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, nothing vile or disgusting or anything like that. You're going to get a big middle finger or whatnot.

[Lilin Lavin]
And again, if I had an OnlyFans, then you would know and since I don't, you can't.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right, well, with that, I think we will let everybody go and we will talk to you all on the next episode. Hail Satan. Hail Satan.