Ep.28: Victory is a Spirit - Unity and Resilience in the Face of Adversity

# Satanists Nextdoor Podcast
# Episode 28: Victory is a Spirit - Unity and Resilience in the Face of Adversity

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist-seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. Grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today we are going to be discussing something that many of you have probably noticed circulating around, a collection of statements and open letters known as Victory is a Spirit. Having read through some of these, we thought that, you know, discussion was warranted and so we invited some of the, what would, writers, some of the authors behind the movement onto the podcast.

So, welcome everybody!

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome. I'm gonna let these fine, wonderful people introduce themselves, but I just wanted to kind of kick off the Victory is a Spirit, if you haven't read it. It is a beautiful collection of what the fuck happened after the Silverman debacle, where the amazing photograph came out from our very unfavorite douche, and he went ahead and made it very public that he had visited the temple and had a little photo op and tried to use that for his own personal gains.

And there was a very strong reaction on both sides. And on what I felt was a relatively positive side, a bunch of really cool folks got together and decided to do something about it. And these are some of those people.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Pete and Karen Alright. Well, let's jump in.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's go for it.

Hit the ground. Why don't everybody introduce themselves? How about that?

Let's start with that. A quick round of introductions.

[Nooki]
Sounds good. I am. My name is Tanuki Sale-Hayton.

I have been with TST since 2019. And I am based out of Chicago. And I work for TST TV now.

And I'm gonna pass it on to Kaylee.

[Kaelea]
Oh, that's helpful. I'll do a little popcorn. Hi, I'm Kaylee Kay.

I've been with TST since 2019. With ministry, a couple of other things here and there. But I'm, I'm just, I'm just a regular person.

So I don't, I don't know how much more I can add. But yeah, I will pass it on to Murphy.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Hi, I'm Murphy Fox. I've been with TST since 2018 or 2019. I'm not really good with years times just fly these days, but for a couple years, and I've written an article for free inquiry magazine defending TST. And I do my best to support the community. And but other than that, I'm pretty much a nobody. And I will pass it to Lilith. Murphy, you're not a nobody.

[Lilin Lavin]
Thank you.

[Lilith Starr]
You're definitely somebody who makes a difference. So but um, yes. Um, well, thank you very much for from Tommy and Lillian for having me on.

My name is Lilith Starr. I started the Satanic Temple Washington way back in 2014. So I've been with the org for nine years now.

And I published a couple books on Satanism. One was called the Happy Satanist. And then my latest one is Compassionate Satanism, which takes a pretty in depth look at actual satanic practice as we practice it in the satanic temple.

So oh, and I'm spokesperson for TST Washington now also. So yeah, I've been here a minute.

[Lilin Lavin]
Awesome. Welcome, everybody. And thank you for this very needed and welcome conversation.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Thank you. And there are a lot of other people that contributed to the letter as well. And I wasn't easy.

I think a lot of people were scared to do it. So all of their voices matter too.

[Tommy Lavin]
Awesome. Yeah, definitely anybody that you know, contributed, you know, give a round of applause or thank you or whatnot. So how do we want to get this started?

One of y'all want to sort of Yeah, give an opening statement.

[Nooki]
Yeah, I can kick us off.

[Tommy Lavin]
Let's go.

[Nooki]
All right. This peril belongs to all Middle Earth. They must decide now how to end it.

We're at a critical moment in time in the election year ahead of us could really change life as we know it. We must ensure our religious rights are secured and exercised before they are completely eroded. Now more than ever, we cannot afford to self destruct.

Until now, we felt that questioning the tactics and responses of TST middle management would result in us being further excluded and denied opportunities for growth within the organization. Today, we feel that not voicing our concerns makes us complicit in allowing TST middle management to brush under the rug, not only the most recent purity spiral featured on the Atlantic, but also the abundant history of other similar meltdowns with little to no accountability, nor a promise to find better ways to resolve conflict that don't result in community being torn apart, or community members being ostracized for disagreeing with a viewpoint. We're gathered at this hour to reflect to hold ourselves accountable to pick to figure out a path forward for all of us so that we can get to work. Our victory, when we stand together is a triumphant spirit.

Hail Satan.

[Lilin Lavin]
Hail Satan. All right. Well, I don't know how to follow that up.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I think there was a few points in there that that were really important. The first was that this, you know, this picture thing that happened in the Atlantic, and yes, it's been a little while since it's happened, but it isn't the only time that a purity spiral like this has happened, which is the reason why the conversation in the letter started, you know, kind of was put together.

It's not a one-time deal. This seems to be a reoccurring pattern, and you all are looking for a way to have some, you know, have people take accountability for their own actions and feelings and make some real changes, right?

[Murphy Fawkes]
It's like Daenerys says, we want to break the wheel.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, let's break the damn wheel.

[Lilith Starr]
I would say we want to make a better wheel. Yeah, we need to upgrade the wheel.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, get some nice rims on it, spinners.

[Kaelea]
I'm in a break the wheel camp, break the wheel and have a mimosa.

[Tommy Lavin]
I like this camp too. I actually have orange juice and champagne downstairs. So, the mimosas were part of the weekend already planned.

[Nooki]
Well, there we go.

[Lilin Lavin]
All right, I'll see you all right now. Okay, podcast is done. No, I think you all had some really important points, and I think what struck me and one of the reasons I reached out to Murphy and you guys for this was because this is a long overdue conversation.

We have a lot of talk about our tenants and what they mean to us, and if they don't mean that we have to challenge our own preconceived notions as a community within one another, then what does it mean? And I like the way you guys are going about that. So, I'll let you continue from there.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And so, does someone want to describe, I mean, this first meltdown, you know, was because of the David Silverman photo, I think.

[Lilin Lavin]
Sure.

[Murphy Fawkes]
I think you guys saw that, but.

[Lilin Lavin]
The Silverman photo was frustrating for me, and one of the reasons that I really resonated with this was Silverman's a known douche at this point. They had gone away from public eye, they found a way to get back in with a nice triumphant roar of troll-like support, and the way they did that was they went to the Salem headquarters, they went through and did a nice tour. Lucian at the time had known this individual from many years past as someone that was involved with the atheistic organization that they had met and spoke with them through, not really kept up with them much since.

And then this photo goes out on Silverman's account, and then things begin to go to shit. And what do I mean by that? Well, a bunch of people decided to fracture and use this as a way to scream and cry about how their rights weren't being met and their needs weren't being met and they felt like it was unfair and Lucian didn't care about them and we should try to be everything to everybody.

And it was something I'd seen in the past, but this was at a grand scale. So I was very frustrated. I understood from individuals in the trans community because of all the hate that had been going on throughout the United States, especially through laws and things, why some were very hurt by what they saw and some of the reactions that were up front.

I obviously understand why there was some knee-jerk reactions within that community. It was warranted. But then when you have time to sit and think and realize this wasn't from Lucian, it didn't come from them directly.

And not because I think Lucian walks on water because he doesn't, and he definitely does things I don't agree with, but this was one of the dumber reasons to point fingers at him and say he doesn't care when he's been out there for many aspects of the community, including the trans community.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and I think I've always equated it to, one, Lucian didn't post the picture. You know, it would have been maybe a little bit different had Lucian posted the picture and then put a long paragraph about how him and David went out, had lunch, talked to each other, talked shit about whatever community, and then went on from there. But that's not what happened.

And if, let's say, Ted Cruz decided to go to Salem and take a tour and then said, hey, Lucian, will you take a picture with me and throw the horns? Lucian would probably stand there and throw the horns, and nobody would need Lucian to say, oh, by the way, I don't agree with Ted Cruz's politics. And so, to me, it was really that simple.

You know, so, he took a picture with somebody. Okay, let's move on. I mean, so, that's kind of the way I looked at it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, and like I said, the initial response, I got it. But if you had time to sit and think about it and actually look at what happened, then nobody seemed to be wanting to do that. And the few that did, like you guys, were kind of pushed aside as, well, you're just not looking at the bigger picture.

And I think the way you guys approached it and what you are looking at is, in fact, the bigger picture. Yeah.

[Lilith Starr]
I had a whole process. It came out, the picture came out, and I saw the reactions first. And it just went on and on.

And the reactions, you know, I didn't really think about the whole picture because a lot of the reactions were from people I really respect that I've worked with for years that are in leadership positions. And they all talked about, you know, how harmful this was to the trans community. And you hit the nail on the head, like trans people do have a fuck ton of bullshit that they have to deal with.

So, I'm sure it could have, when you think about it without really pondering it through, it's like, yeah, I see where people could be upset. What would it cost Lucian to just, you know, say, oh, I'm sorry, I am in support of trans rights. And I saw calls for the tenants, you know, those two tenants, six and seven, or seven.

And basically, like, he made a mistake. He's fallible. He should do what he can to rectify the situation.

But instead of that happening, Lucian got more and more mad. And his responses to people that were earnestly seeking an answer on how to process this, I guess, he was really snarky and angry. And I only saw one person who's been here in leadership for a very long time who knows Lucian post as to why he understood the snark, because Lucian's like that way.

And he gets really mad if he feels people are trying to force him to do something that he shouldn't. And what changed my mind really was reading Lucian's take on the matter and realizing that the reason he was so angry about all these calls to make an apology is that he thought the harm that was done was insignificant or maybe even, you know, to the harm that TST was working on dismantling right now. And that's the theocracy of our country who are passing laws that target trans people very heavily that, you know, could force adults to deep transition that rob children of their ability to get gender care and throw their parents in prison for child abuse if they do get that care they need.

I'm sorry. There's just so much going on at our trans communities that I saw Lucian's point that if we spend all this agonized time and back and forth over a picture that he took with someone he barely knew then, certainly didn't know was a transphobe because everything happened after they had known each other for a minute. And Lucian thought nothing of posing for a photograph and that it was Silverman who used that photograph and posted it.

But, you know, the anger wasn't directed at Silverman, it was directed at Lucian. And he was just so frustrated that this is so much time and energy and debate that we should be using in service to fix the real harms that are happening to our trans community. And in fact, at the time, the trans representation campaign that ministers can do was in the works.

And I've seen that that's Lucian's idea. And so it was ironic that while they were yelling at him about being in a photograph with somebody, he had actively hit on a way where TSD could help.

[Kaelea]
And that was exactly my position, you know, as a trans person, as somebody who, like, you know, and of course, I can't speak for every single trans person. And, you know, I recognize, like you all have said, the initial sort of knee jerk reaction to that. But without having read Lucian's piece, that was exactly my perspective.

And when I heard about this was just like, I feel like we have bigger fish to fry. And in my letter, kind of talking about that was like, this is very serious shit. Like, this is all very damaging stuff that's happening at a big scale.

And we really don't have time for this. Like, I want to recognize and hold space for those initial reactions. But I think escalating it the way that it was is not conducive, and in some ways, damaging to the overall effort toward stopping this massive, scary thing that is affecting me, those I love, and communities that I'm a part of.

So I felt that it was important to say something from that perspective, you know, when I heard about all of this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah, thank you for doing that. Because, you know, I'm cis, and I don't know what the trans perspective is on this. And it seems like, you know, a lot of people jumped to the conclusion that all trans people were so angry about it that they might leave.

And I was like, I can't say anything myself for them. But that can't possibly be true. They're not a monolith.

But of course, these people wanted to think that everyone else felt the same as they do. As they did. So thank you for speaking up.

I think your voice among the letters was really, really valuable. And speaking of the letter, like, I had some moments that I wrestled with whether or not I should contribute. And I'm in like, one of the most long term, well known positions in TST. Like I know Lucian and Malcolm, you know, we're sort of friends, you know, and just like I myself had to fear the witch hunt. And then I said, you know, no, fuck that. I think these things are really important. And I'm going to put them out there.

TST has a problem with conflict avoidance. And so, you know, we don't and we have so much rejection in our backgrounds that we really fear rejection. But, you know, sometimes you have to put something above that fear.

And this definitely seemed like the time to do that. And the reason for me especially is that this is the same pattern that has been plaguing TST from almost the very beginning. In 2018, we experienced a backlash within the leadership, the congregation leadership of TST, because some celebrity had either tweeted or retweeted a message that people should go burn down our Salem headquarters.

And so Lucian was trying to get people to report that, you know, threat. And instead, what Twitter did was block his account. And Lucian was never given the blue check of verification, which public figures get.

And he's a pretty public figure. Anyway, and we thought it was because of our religion. And so we wanted to sue Twitter over that because that was a real threat of harm.

And the only way that we could really get something out of them was to point out Lucian's lack of a blue check. And a renowned constitutional free speech absolutist lawyer offered to represent us pro bono. And Lucian was like, yes, please, because contrary to what people think, we're not rolling in dough.

So these support cases cost a whole lot. And it turned out that the lawyer had represented some horrible groups like, you know, white supremacists and neo-Nazis. But he had also represented the UCLA and the American Muslim Women's Association and very leftist causes.

And somehow people lost their minds and thought that if a lawyer represents somebody who's terrible once, then that lawyer gets infected and impure. And then Lucian accepting his help made Lucian, you know, impure, like this contagion. And it was just ridiculous, I thought.

But we lost more chapters for sure than this time. I think we lost like, we lost Portland, LA, I think Austin and New York. So we lost at least four chapters wholesale, just like the UK chapter went over this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, back when they were still chapters.

[Lilith Starr]
Right. And when I think about what harm was done by using the lawyer, A, there isn't any. And compared to the harm of those four chapters leaving our org and ceasing to fight with us for these really important harms, you know, to stop them, there's just no sense of proportion.

So I don't want to keep seeing that because it happens in like, it happened in our congregation. It happened in others. It happened in different years because of different reasons.

But it's all the same pattern where there's no perspective taking and people get really emotional and upset over something that shouldn't cause them to leave a group that is fighting real harm that is being done.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Lilith Starr]
And I'm tired of seeing that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And the Constitution, like, oh, sorry.

[Murphy Fawkes]
No, you're fine. I'm sorry. For the Silverman photo, I'm just going to quote what the Atlantic said.

There were calls for griefs to apologize, to cede power, to reaffirm his support for trans rights. The Temple's British congregation announced within three weeks that all 41 of its members had voted to leave. They soon rebranded themselves as Satanists in the wilderness.

In the United States, the Temple's sober faction, which had been providing court-ordered programs for people who disliked the quasi-religious structure of Alcoholics Anonymous, also objected strongly to the picture. And so I want to make sure we say this because we're, you know, sober faction did not leave, but people's court-ordered recovery was interrupted because of a photograph.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. People that were in a leadership position in sober faction left and it took TST a little while to, you know, obviously replace a seat.

So, yeah, it interrupted people's court-ordered sobriety.

[Lilith Starr]
Not only that, I mean, I can't break anonymity, but I've seen at least one of my acquaintances in the Satanic community relapse over it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilith Starr]
And then kind of drift. And, you know, as a former addict, I can tell you that, like, once you go back to the addiction, it can be really hard to come back to, you know, the org that supported you because there's a lot of shame. Not as much as MA lays on you, but.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, yeah.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah. It wasn't just like whether or not they go back to jail now, but it was also potentially life-ruining because you relapse once and it's not a given that you're going to get out of that. Yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah. So, in my opinion, the reaction, the overreaction to the photo absolutely caused real harm.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
But the photo itself caused no harm.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Should have caused no.

[Tommy Lavin]
I would agree with you. And back to the lawyer thing that you were talking about, it just seems like there's this lack of understanding of how certain occupations work.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. You know. Well, because the Constitution applies to all people.

Whether or not we like them is irrelevant to the fact that the Constitution still applies to their right to appoint, to speak about what they firmly believe. Whether or not we think that some of those opinions are horrible and fair to say, they still have the right to have them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And that's the lawyer's job. A lawyer's job isn't to judge their client.

Their job is to uphold the law. Did this person, was one of their rights taken away from them? Yes or no.

And that's their job is to fight that, not to say, oh, I'm not going to take you as a client because I don't like blue hair, and you've got blue hair.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's so much less about the lawyer or David Silverman or any of these people and much more are we adults in the room and who's doing this work and who's involved in this work. And I think that's what you guys really touched on here.

[Nooki]
I think I, so one of the reasons that, one of the reasons why I decided to basically go down this path of saying something was because I realized that I was afraid of speaking up about it. But I also realized that this is a pattern and this is something that like, this is not sustainable, period, point blank. I don't know how people have been able to do this over and over and over.

You know, like I, like this, this just cannot continue. We need to, we have so much, like what I'm trying to say is that I essentially realized that I was afraid and I looked at the big picture and realized, hey, I have to, I have to deal with this fear. I have to be an adult.

I have to work through this and I have to figure out how to do something about this, even if it means that I'm ostracized from the community, because this is bigger than me and my social anxiety and whatever the fuck I was afraid of. It's bigger than me. It's bigger than all of us.

Like, this is literally for the future of our community so that we can just stop doing this shit and be a true community that builds each other up and that, so that we're not fucking falling apart and picking friends and picking sides and all this shit. I'm fucking tired of that shit. I'm tired of that shit.

And, and, and yeah, so it's just like, if, you know, if I guess like, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna burn the bridge, I'm gonna burn the bridge by saying we need to do better and we can do better because everybody is fucking amazing and we could do so much fucking awesome shit if we can get over this, but we first have to face it. We have to acknowledge it. We have to just be real about the shit.

Like, like Lilith was saying, like this shit goes way back. I didn't even know about the details of this. I've heard about it, but I didn't know the details.

And this was like, you mean to tell me that it's literally the same thing? It's like, come on, y'all, we are grown as hell. We, we have to confront this and we have to fix it.

Like, there's just no other way around this.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah, right. And I think, I think it's really important for us to also recognize that there is a whole bunch of ego wrapped up in these patterns. Like, they're not doing this.

I mean, they say that they, you know, are trying to change us for the better or whatever, but what's really happening is that they sense that there's an opening for them. And I'm not talking about every single person who posted this stuff, but they're, but like, you know, some of the people that left and took their whole like subgroup with them, um, they see it as, um, a possible in road to get a whole bunch of people on their side to basically defect with them. And then they get to be the leader.

And that's how I've seen stuff happen again and again, especially within our own congregation. We had a series of three leaders that were authoritarians. And, you know, that they took power right after the big anarchist group had tried to take power and had left and stolen the congregations, you know, intellectual property that we'd worked on for eight years at that point, or five years.

Anyway, um, you know, this isn't just a matter of real versus imagined harm and like reaction versus overreaction. Um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of power seeking. And that's, that's true in every corner of TST, especially for Satanists, because we get people who are sure their way is the right way.

They disagree with their congregation leader or Lucian or any of these people, and they start pushing, um, like we had somebody who was running our Facebook page for a minute when I wasn't leadership. Tell me that he wasn't going to quote Lucian anymore on our Facebook page, because Lucian was problematic. So yeah, I mean, I just had a what the fuck moment.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, I think that people are often looking for opportunities to launch themselves into the satanic spotlight. And I honestly think the Atlantic article, if we don't learn to break the cycle is just a dog whistle for any opportunistic narcissist. They learned from this article, I just have to come in, get a couple people to like me, then complain about all this shit.

And I can leave and people will follow me. You know, it's a blueprint at this point, if we don't stop it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Kaelea]
I will say like, in earnest, you know, I, I have this suspicion that if you're trans and you're online, because the world is so scary right now, and part of the reason why I took a break from social media was because the way that it's structured is to amplify everything negative. And that could be infighting amongst your friends. So, oh, I'm having a feud with so and so and you can't talk to so and so without angering so and so and all of this.

So that was part of the reason I took a break. But another was one that I think, for me explains the tendency toward overstating harm, which was that when you're on Twitter, and you're refreshing your timeline, and you see, you know, Matt Walsh or JK Rowling tweets at the top of your timeline, which was increasingly common for me, and news sites saying like, oh, this new bill just passed. And now there's a bunch of people who can't get their hormones in Tennessee.

Like, the whole world starts to look terrifying. And I think that has caused us as a community, whether that's stateness, or trans folks, or trans stateness, to see harm or the potential for harm everywhere.

[Murphy Fawkes]
It's always hiding behind a corner about to get you.

[Kaelea]
Exactly. And you there's that very human urge to try and preempt it. So I think, you know, if we look at it with between folks who are trying to seize power, I do also think there's a segment of people who are earnestly scared.

And that makes a lot of sense to me. Because when I unplugged when I did the fabled touching of the grass, there was a period of time that where I went out like I was so you know, like nervous when other people would glance at me like just walking down the street. And after I'd spent some time touching the fabled grass, I felt better and like talk to people more and felt more like, wow, maybe things are not as bad.

And I think that, for me, makes the most sense as to why we we have a tendency to overstate harm. Because that brings me to privilege, like, you know, the harm that could possibly like physically be caused by a photograph is nowhere near the harm that is faced by, you know, the 20 some odd trans folks who were murdered this year, it's nowhere near the harm faced by trans people of color, or trans kids in, you know, these 22 states that have bans on gender affirming care. Now, those laws that were just passed this year, are doing very real harm.

And I think that this serves as a distraction, our tendency toward overstating online harm pushes us away from a very unified opponent, who is getting shit done, really scary shit. So I understand it. And I think, you know, seeing it from that lens, too, and trying to have some level of empathy and compassion, while also being like, we can we can do better, we can apply a more abundant mindset to this, and say, let's look at the bigger picture and focus on the work that really needs to be getting done, which, by the way, a lot of people are doing.

I think one of the reactions to to my portion of the letter was like, people are doing this, it's just not something that we see or has talked about a lot of people are working very hard on this behind the scenes. And I think that's also important for not just me to remember, but for folks who understandably have that knee jerk reaction to be like, well, TST is not doing enough for trans people or so and so. It's a hard fight.

And I recognize that there are people doing that work. And I think if we focus on that, and put ourselves to work as well, we'll see a lot more progress.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, Kaylee, I can't tell you how many people I hear talk exactly the same as what you're doing. There's so many horrible things. There's so many things I can't go out.

I can't be myself. I can't. And in states like Texas, which is not the only, I mean, we've got Florida, we've got many that are doing things right now that are a definite risk to life and liberty that all people, especially trans people should have the same rights and liberty that everyone else should have the right to.

But our people, you know, minority communities, our trans community, all these communities are being very actually affected. And here we are with the outrage virus that I believe, Murphy, you really talked about that in a really well, when you said, you know, it spreads, it's contagious. It just seems to overtake us.

And we kind of let it have a life of its own.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah. If it's okay with you, can I just walk through like the timeline?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, absolutely.

[Murphy Fawkes]
All of these events and, you know, how we got to the point where like, okay, we have to write this letter.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Because it wasn't an immediate knee-jerk reaction. People weren't mad about this. And we weren't like, oh, my God, we have to write a letter.

There were plenty of steps along the way that made us feel this way. So beginning in June, when it initially happened, and I was seeing all of this social media contagion spreading like wildfire, my first step was to reach out to Kaylee, because I was like, hey, can you explain this to me? Make sure I'm because I was like, why is this happening?

We need to calm down. But maybe we shouldn't. I need to ask a trans person who has this experience.

And Kaylee's also just she happens to be one of the most amazing people I know. And she's a great professional. And she's like, she's got such a solid grasp on reality that, you know, Kaylee can explain things to me.

[Kaelea]
And this was something I just want to clarify to this was something that I offered to you to be like, yeah, like, talk to me about that's something that we do fairly regularly is talk about these things. Because I think, you know, the response to that would be like, oh, I shouldn't have to educate you or like, you shouldn't, you know, all that stuff like that. But this was definitely something that I wanted to do.

And I think that was a great step.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Thank you. Yeah. And she helped me understand it.

And, you know, then after that, my next step was to have a couple one on one and small group discussions with leaders that I saw acting like this was the end of the world. And honestly, the conclusion that I had after talking to all these people, and really like sitting down and trying to understand why they did what they did, many of them weren't doing it because they genuinely believed that the photo was harmful. They were doing it specifically for the optics, because they felt this trap, they felt like if they didn't condemn the photograph and didn't condemn illusion, that they weren't being a good ally to trans people in our community.

And conversely, they felt like if they said, hey, maybe we should take a step back and calm down, that they would be labeled transphobic, which they didn't want. And so that was like hard for me to process. I was like, okay, but I get it.

I don't necessarily like it, but I understand. But then I was witnessing middle management and people with the authority to speak on TST's behalf, joining the outrage mob and handing pitchforks out. So I decided like simplest thing to do.

I've had all these conversations. I feel like I know, I know what I think. So I tweeted my opinion, which was basically cooties aren't real.

You're choosing to be upset over photograph grow up. And immediately my DMS were flooded with people thanking me for saying anything, saying they were too scared to speak up. Some of them were even too scared to like my tweet.

And, you know, I was like, what the fuck are you serious? Like, we're Satanists. Why?

Why do so many people care more about optics than doing what's right? What's going on here? So I don't know.

By the end of June, my conclusion was that an apology or a placating statement would be a huge misstep. And I also at that point, I think it would be flat out embarrassing because essentially what we're saying is that Satanists can't handle a photograph of their spokesperson with someone they dislike and disagree with. While simultaneously, we're all demanding that evangelical Christians accept our satanic monuments in their state houses.

And obviously, I know the difference between public and private state private spaces, but I think we need to live those principles and not be hypocrites. But it pretty much died down. And then, you know, it was September.

And on a Thursday in September, we went to Indiana to assert our religious rights, equal participation in public forums. And we were listening to satanic planet play, you know, and when you're in a in a building and people know that Lucian Greaves is there and you're doing a, you know, you're standing up for your religious rights, you don't necessarily feel safe. We kind of felt like, you know, like we're trying to enjoy the music.

I was filming and you could tell from the film that I was like shaking and I was trying not to. Um, and we had a plan to because Liz was there with me. And I was like, Okay, well, since I'm white, when if somebody busts in with a gun, I'm just going to pretend like I'm one of them.

And I'm going to grab you and I'm going to go to the back door. And I'm going to be like, I got this one.

[Lilin Lavin]
This one's mine.

[Murphy Fawkes]
We were gonna be okay, you know, and I don't know.

[Nooki]
This is scary. This is scary.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, we felt very free. Like, okay, we did this shit. And then literally the following Monday after that Thursday, the Atlantic article drops and naively because I'm a dumbass.

Apparently, I was like, Okay, people are finally going to agree with me. Like this is a Nash international embarrassment, how he behaves like things are going to change now I'm going to see accountability. And for the most part, I only saw trivial complaints about how the article talked about orgy policy.

I saw people trying to blame the author saying that she's transphobic. I didn't see which I found out later that there were some but I did not see anyone who was in leadership saying yes, we embarrassed ourselves besides Stephen Bradford long who was doing that from the beginning. I love him.

He's the best. So, you know, at that point, I'm like, Why aren't Why don't we realize how bad this was? And obviously, this is going to happen again.

So I spoke to a few leaders, and I was surprised to hear that some of them did agree with me that it was handled poorly. But I was they told me that they were requested specifically not to quote unquote signal boost and that that honestly really pissed me off because I'm like, if you're going to publicly set a bad example, you need to publicly set a good example.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And so at that point, I was like, if they don't care when the sh-t is headline news, it's an international embarrassment. Maybe they'll wake the f-ck up if we hold up a mirror and call them out. That's when we first started talking about how and what we could do or say instead of remaining silent.

And like the gist of that is since TST's inception, TST as a whole, thankfully due to Lucian and Malcolm, and their long term vision and leadership has preference principles over optics. And that's why I've consistently supported TST. TST has consistently practiced institutional neutrality, and we've stuck to our core liberal democratic values. Not deviating from them due to mob harassment internally, and any of the other instances and this one is undoubtedly saving us and preserving our credibility now, while we're under attack from some of the highest placed politicians.

So we just we can't, we cannot and will not f-ck around when it comes to our principles. The stakes are too high. So on October 7th, we started this initiative and we also we emailed it because the link was, you know, when people added their letters, the link was updated and we emailed it to him.

We want you to know we support you. We're on board just because your leadership was told not to signal boost doesn't mean that we're not embarrassed by how this played out.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right? Yeah, I think you said something in there earlier where you were like, what the f-ck we're all Satanists. And I can't tell you how many times I've kind of thought that to myself and even said it, you know, it's like this really, this is, you know, with everything else going on, this is what is being focused on.

You know, and just insert something into this doesn't have to be the picture. It could be anything else. You know, I've seen quite a few purity spirals and it's like we're grown, you know, we're adults and we're Satanists.

We, you know, should have better personal accountability. I mean, that's a key part of Satanism for me anyways. And, you know, recognition of, you know, really?

I mean, where is where's the real issue here? You know, is this really, you know, I don't know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jared Yeah, I think it was also important because a few of you have talked about I'm afraid. I felt afraid to say things. I felt afraid of being ostracized, kicked out, removed.

And that to me is terrifying because we are an organization who is built on being a collection of others. We are all people who have been othered by society in one facet or another and we know better. We know better than anybody that this is not acceptable and if we can't look at ourselves and deal with our own shit, we have a lot bigger problems.

And, you know, Murphy talked about how you guys were out at this event. Our lives are on the line every time we do something publicly and that shouldn't even be a reality. Yeah.

How are we fighting with each other when our lives are at risk just for living our true genuine lives? Whether you're a trans person, a Satanist, you know, LGBTQ at all, you know, a minority in many states. Your life is at risk simply for existing.

That's where we should be focused.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah, that's a really important part.

[Murphy Fawkes]
I kind of don't want to address this because it doesn't genuinely bother me, but just because it's been said, I'll clarify. Some people say that like us doing this just means that we were like Lucian fangirls and we have to agree with him on everything. I want to be clear.

When I read that Atlantic article, I felt embarrassed. It made me want to crawl in a hole because it's like if this is how Satanists are being represented, I'm fucking embarrassed. So that's why I wanted to stand up against it because y'all embarrassed me.

[Kaelea]
And I think the reactions of like, you know, who are we to be saying this? Like who what role do we have? How are we even involved?

And I think that doesn't even matter so much. Like in my part, I talked a little bit about the roots of the word minister, right? Like it has to do with something smaller or less.

It's related to service and being an attendant. And I think that is the answer right there. Like even if, you know, we're nobodies in this community, we're still a part of it.

And I think it should be any ministers concerned or anybody's concerned in this community what other people in the community think and feel and experience. And I think, you know, on the subject of like this is happening among Satanists, like I will say that Christian nationalists and TERFs and anybody who's vocally anti-transgender doesn't have those same qualms about working with people, imperfect allies. Like TERFs, especially like they praise, you know, talking heads like Matt Walsh.

And he's like in direct opposition to pro-choice feminism, which TERFs for, you know, whatever else they believe, maybe pro-choice. I mean, like you're working with somebody who is very strictly anti-abortion to work on a greater issue. And the fact that they have that unity and we don't, it frightens me.

Yeah.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah, especially when it's like the baseline that we should expect. Like, so I've heard from one of you here tonight that you got your contribution in this letter minimized because who are you? Like, you don't have a title.

You're not in leadership. And that really, really, really bothers me because that's not what TST is built on. Like leaders are gods.

They're not infallible. And like, we are all, we are all individuals, but also we all count. Like our newest member, if she sees something awry and, you know, I don't see it despite my nine years and like multiple titles and shit, I want to hear it because it's all in the service of making us better.

And we have to get better. For nine years, I've watched this happen. And it's like, there's no thought of proportion.

So over the years, like TST is not perfect at all. The first year I was trying to build one of the first chapters, Jex was supposed to be managing us. The chapters disappeared.

So we would go for like eight months without hearing back from Lucien or Malcolm, because we had to work directly with them to get approval on any of our projects. You know, so from the very beginning, there was this very difficult challenge. And it's been challenges all the way up that might make some people leave.

But I just see our mission and our accomplishments as an organization, and especially our unique power to fight against the Christian nationalism that has overtaken our country. It's not even scraping its way to power now. It's in power, including in our judicial system.

And I wish people would, like, when I really thought about it, I saw an equation. So say something happens that upsets you, like you see this photograph, and you know, David Silverman is a transphobe. Like that's, you know, that could upset somebody, but does it counteract everything else good that all these good people are doing?

[Murphy Fawkes]
And And we have duties that Lucien got, and now suddenly he feels the same. That's not how it works.

[Kaelea]
Well, and consider, consider like the alternative, right? When somebody is being criticized, I think it's important to look at the, okay, what should I have done piece? And the question for me, I think, really early on was like, how do you deal with that?

Do you have to like check everything that everybody's ever written before they walk in the door? Some people say, no, that's crazy. He should have just apologized.

Well, why? That gets us into that. Like, if you can't answer that first part of the question, then what exactly are you asking for an apology for?

And, and then it's just ongoing. There was no mistake made.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And then it's just every time something happens, there's an apology. We need an apology for this.

We need an apology for that.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And then your job, your job becomes issuing apologies and not doing any work.

[Tommy Lavin]
Exactly.

[Lilith Starr]
Right, right. The Atlantic article had one bright spot. And it talked about how all these other, you know, like the ACLU and other really leftist, like Planned Parenthood organizations have had this same problem where elements within it force them to continue making these statements.

And they do. And it's a lot of work and prevents them from working. But I think near the end of the article, the writer actually said, like, Lucian is the only one who has said no.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And I'm like... And I thought that should be celebrated. I'm like, this is a good thing that shows that we're principled.

[Lilith Starr]
It's like a roadmap. I mean, I was really surprised more people weren't just aghast and embarrassed. And like, just like, oh, shit, we got to do better.

Once that article came out. Luckily, I did see several people and like my campaign manager from when I was running the chapter is very keen and astute on watching the news and like the themes for us. And he sent me a link to that article first before I saw it on social media and said, this is terrible.

You guys need to change your internal culture. And I saw one or two ministers saying that. But I mean, when you talk about contagion, a witch hunt is a contagion.

Especially in these days. Again, we're Satanists. We shouldn't have to be afraid to say what we see or what we feel.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah. And another criticism of the fact that, you know, we went about it this way, we wrote the letters is that we were, you know, I've been told, well, we have committees for that. And it was done.

It was handled. It was put to bed. There was no need to rehash this.

And I'm just thinking, okay, well, if that's true, why, when the Atlantic article came out, why wasn't it the standard reaction if we really learned our lesson to be like, let's point out the lesson learned here instead of attacking the author. I don't think anyone learned it. So that's why I wanted to try to teach it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, and I still see an occasional comment here or there on other subjects, you know, where people ask Lucian to step down or something like that. Or, you know, you hear whispers of, you know, people are upset about something else. It's kind of ironic that this podcast, you know, came together, because I was thinking of putting a podcast now that we're coming into the beginning of a new year, basically saying, if you even have an inkling or a feeling like you're going to have a public temper tantrum and leave in 2024, just do it now.

Make that, yes, make that a new year.

[Kaelea]
Make that leap now. Just do it now.

[Tommy Lavin]
Get it over with. You know, we can, we can, you know, y'all can all do it at the same time. You can even, you can incorporate it into a destruction spell.

You can light up some fireworks and let's see yourself out.

[Nooki]
When we're getting beef, let me know now.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, so it was kind of ironic that it came together like that, you know, and I can also appreciate because I've seen, I can appreciate Lucian where he sits in a leadership position because he's kind of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. You know, if Lucian doesn't say something, then the feedback is, you're not talking enough about inter whatever community here because, because they, they feel like TST should be, and you know, it's in political advocate, you know, instead of a religion. The other part is if Lucian says something, then it's, you're not inter same community here, sit down and shut up, you know?

And so, it's like, he's in a no-win situation. So, I can appreciate that and just, because, you know, I try and be a really good ally, and there's times that I'm like, I come across something, I'm like, you know, I should post on this, but I don't know if I should or not, you know, because am I going to get torn apart for giving my, you know?

[Lilin Lavin]
4 And there's a couple of things, I mean, from my perspective, because I am in congregation leadership, and it was always difficult for me because you're responsible for every single person within your congregation, and it's a variety of people. There are many type of people that are involved from allies up, and they are all people who matter to me and to many of the other congregation heads I know. So, when people are angry about things that aren't happening, I ask, well, what are we doing?

We are the people that help to, to further this, to lead this, to put these things out there and championing it, and I don't see a ton of people, and I'll say it just blatant, Trans Satanic Alliance is a thing. Trans Satanic exists. They've been trying to get people to join them.

They have membership open. They have a lot of things they're trying to accomplish from donations and membership opportunities, and that's a thing everyone can do. And I don't hear them shouting that from the rooftop, but if they did something wrong, I guarantee that there would be a loud megaphone just pushing that out there, and that's a problem that we have to address.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, I think in the first part of the letter, not like my statement, but just the general letter, we wrote something like, if you're so upset about a photograph, if this photograph can make you feel like all of TST is transphobic, perhaps you're not doing enough to cultivate the optics that you want to see in the world. You know, instead of blaming Lucian and Malcolm that TST seems transphobic, maybe we should go to those specific campaigns that are dedicated where that's their job and help them cultivate the optics we want to see in the world.

[Kaelea]
Exactly. Do something. Revelations for me was, like, as a person on a personal growth scale, was this concept of abundance mindset that I will go and talk for another hour about how I believe in it and what it means and all that.

But the basic idea is that when we change our mindset from a scarcity mindset, which is, you know, I only have so much energy or everything's a threat or like I have to kind of protect me or my community or my space from all of these bad things, you tend to lash out more, you tend to be more aggressive, and you tend to have this loathing of yourself, your life, and the people in it. But when we switch that to, you know, I have plenty, I have plenty of energy, I have plenty of opportunity, that just opened so many doors for me. And it allowed me to stop focusing on, like, wow, I've had a really shitty life up until this point and I'm not happy, so I'm going to be angry about that.

And I'm going to see everything that's out to get me as, you know, proof and validation for how I feel. Instead, it's like, wow, I want to make sure that that doesn't happen to somebody else again. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to, you know, change everything about my life to make it so that that's my cause, that's my feeling.

And I think if we take that approach, even in areas that we're not too fond of, or like, oh, that's maybe not so good, seeing it as an opportunity is so, so much healthier. Like, TST is not doing enough for trans rights. Okay, I'm going to look at that and say, wow, this is so exciting.

That means that there are opportunities for us to do so much more. Instead of blaming, you know, like the one cis person at the top for not doing it for you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Kaelea]
I mean, that seems to me the most unsatanic thing ever is to be like, fix it for me. No, we're Satanists, we get shit done. I mean, the queer activists of the AIDS crisis did not ask for anybody from any organization to do things for them.

And I think the reason I bring that example up is because, you know, I think when we look at queer activism throughout history, one of the most amazing things is how varied it has been, how organized it has been, all of the different forms that it's taken, all predating social media. And I promise I'll stop saying this social media at some point during this conversation, but stop posting a touch grass 2024.

[Murphy Fawkes]
I could listen to you talk for five hours. You're good.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think so, yeah. What we have to do now is figure out what is our part here and how do we change this from outrage to action and to what Kaylee said about making this an opportunity of abundance instead of the overwhelming thing that it feels like right now.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And how everyone in TST can help and we're not putting it all on one or two people at the top. You know, it's, how can...

[Lilin Lavin]
Folks, you can't unfound or something. Just put it out there. Yeah.

[Lilith Starr]
That's not for real. Sorry. Before we move on to the solutions, I do want to say that, I mean, people can pin their shit on Lucien all the time and hate on him, but they don't seem to know how lucky we are to have a leader like that.

Not just that he can go on Fox and run around Tucker Carlson and Jesse Walters and Megyn Kelly in circles and make them go, but he is so articulate. But also, like, think about some of the religious leaders out there. Many of them, like in the Mormon and Christian and Catholic faith, they demand, it's all about them.

They're a charismatic leader, only they get to talk to God. Like Joel Osteen has like 17 mansions and 20 private jets and he's convinced his flock that he deserves all that. And there's so many dangers of a movement like that, because Church of Satan was that and is still that, where the word of LaVey is now taken as gospel, which is kind of the opposite of what he wanted.

But like Church of Satan was Anton LaVey, and when he died, it just kind of fell into a shell of itself. And we won't have that problem, because both Lucian and Malcolm, I've noticed from the very beginning, were very clear about it wasn't about them. They have declined every request for them to talk about their personal lives, their relationships, anything about them.

And they have pushed and pushed and pushed whenever the media has tried to turn that on him. He has pushed it on to TST. And so like, when you look at that, and you look at what could have been, we got really, really lucky with somebody who deliberately, and this is something he told me, he deliberately doesn't want to be the whole movement, the charismatic leader. I mean, you know, those guys are crooks.

Joel Osteen should go to jail for putting little old ladies in the poorhouse, you know, and here we have someone with principles and an extremely sharp mind that can do a great job, you know, speaking for us. And I think, you know, I'm totally fangirling here, but just when I think of the alternative, I think we're really lucky.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I'll pee in your tears a little bit and say, I love Lucian for the things that he's done and put out there, just as I appreciate what LaVey started and what we were able to build from what LaVey started and so many before him and so many that will hopefully come after. Lucian does things I sometimes think are idiotic. He's gone on the news before and made statements that I was beside myself going, why would you actually say that?

And yet, like you said, he's very articulate. He can roll those people in ways that they don't even realize they've been rolled until they're, oh crap, they just owned my ass. Oh, and you know, it's this, this, there's this duality of him and I appreciate that.

And yet I know that the hope is we can get our shit together and move that forward after they're no longer around. Yeah. TST isn't just Lucian.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, that's, that's the difference. And that's what a lot of people from some other organizations have a hard time understanding and comprehending because some of these other organizations, they are the spoken word of their, their, you know, creator, leader or whatever. And, you know, Lucian didn't write a, you know, TST Bible because he didn't need to.

[Lilin Lavin]
Not a damn lot of us are perfect. And that's the point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Nooki]
I think I do want to add though that like, yeah, like TST is not just him, but he is part of it. And I think people have to stop trying to remove him from this because that's just not possible.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Nooki]
He's definitely, I don't understand why people want to remove him from his own work. Like that, that will never make sense to me. And, and I think that's important moving forward that we need to, like, we need to look at each other as a, as a team.

And he is part of that team and people need to put some respect on his name.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, definitely. He's part of it. You can't unfounder something, you know, he can't unfounder it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and his life is on the line all the time because of the choice that he made willingly to stand up for people like us. Whatever I might feel about some of the things he does, I respect that. Yep.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And most of the time when people are like, when they're upset over the Silverman photo and saying you should step down, ultimately what it comes down to is he's, I think it would take, I think there are very few other people in that situation who would withstand the outrage who wouldn't bow to it and issue statements. And he consistently keeps TST on track. He says, you know, we're in our wheelhouse.

These are the things that we're focused on. And I wish that more leaders would take the same approach. I think we would be a stronger TST if they did.

[Kaelea]
I appreciate, you know, like I was talking about with Murphy, like you reaching out and asking like, hey, I might have a blind spot here or, you know, I want to understand this better from your perspective. Lucian's essentially done that with a lot of trans issues, like people say that we should do more. I would like to have somebody, you know, come up with a comprehensive plan about what to do or some kind of ideas for us.

And there is work that's being done. I think recognizing that, you know, one person doesn't have all the answers and seeking out others to help build this community into something that accomplishes actual trans issues tangible material safety for, you know, trans people, for any religious minority that is being dominated by a Christian majority. Like, all of these things are big, complex issues that no one person has the answer for.

And having somebody who's in a position that's so communicative with the community and is like, I will help you get this done, but I need your input is important to me. I think that that's a valuable and admirable trait in a leader. And I still have a pair of his sunglasses and he's not getting them back.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I think a lot of people are very afraid to ask, you know, for clarification or for whether it's a fear that they're going to be embarrassed or, you know, I don't know where that fear is coming from. But I do think, you know, there are people that have that fear. And I just think we need more unity with inside of TST, hell, with inside of Satanism as a whole.

I mean, we've got, like you said, we've got Christian nationalists that are taking over our government. And we're, you know, complaining about things that really don't matter in the end of the day in comparison.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, we reach for the pitchforks too quickly. Yeah, we should be able to have conversations and understand each other.

[Kaelea]
That I think is the root of the solution to this, right, is finding a way to have a conversation, distinguish, you know, conflict from abuse. And I think, you know, for me, the trans community has like this notion of trans joy or queer joy or LGBTQ joy. And I think we need to 2024 is the year of satanic joy.

I think, you know, all my snarky, you know, stop posting and touch grass aside, I think finding those, taking that abundant mindset and finding the positive in ourselves and in our peers and colleagues is going to be what gets us through what is going to be a terrifying year in the US, especially, well, not especially necessarily in a lot of places, but it's going to get real scary. And I think the only way that we get through that intact is together. And it's when we put aside our squabbles, our differences and start recognizing that we're part of a much bigger thing, and that we can find joy in that.

And we can seize opportunities to educate each other, to learn and grow together. It sounds all very Pollyanna, I know, but in practice, it's real work. When I say like, get to work, you know, I recognize that there are people that are actually doing material work.

But I think it's also work on ourselves. It's also being able to say, you know, I recognize that this is a little uncomfortable for me. And this feels, you know, I haven't having a knee jerk reaction to this.

I think about this is an odd comparison. But like in romantic relationships, I really struggled with jealousy. And it helped when I would just acknowledge it instead of trying to be ashamed of it and say, I'm feeling a little jealous about that.

Like, that's bringing up those feelings for me. And acknowledging those in a like, detached way is something from DBT and CBT therapies. Like, I think it's really applicable to the community as a whole to acknowledge the feelings that we're feeling and understand what we can actually do or not do to move forward.

Yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And you said, see this opportunity to teach people or have lessons, if you guys don't mind, you could cut this if you want. But there are like three specific lessons that I'm hoping we can all get on board with in 2024. And so I know there are a lot of complaints about the letter, like people didn't like the term middle management or whatever, even though it's accurate.

But I know like one of the things that I wrote, I'm actually going to stand by even though it's very snarky. I wrote, I am unsure when ministry became a professional babysitting service for the perpetually offended. And to be clear, we have plenty of leaders who behave with integrity and intellectual honesty who consistently embody enlightenment values.

It's my top priority to do a better job of recognizing and appreciating them, empowering them, and setting them up in an environment that allows them to succeed and thrive. Conversely, I've seen middle management and ministers of Satan teaching congregants the following and reinforcing what Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt referred to as the three great untruths. And the first is the untruth of fragility.

And that's when I've seen ministers teach, what doesn't kill you makes you weaker, retreat from hardship and difference. I think instead we should teach what Paradise Lost demonstrates. The mind is its own place and is in itself can make a heaven of a hell or hell of a heaven.

Satanists should cultivate resilience, not fragility. They don't need to be coddled. They need to be empowered.

So that's the first lesson that I think we should focus on. The second great untruth is the untruth of emotional reasoning. So when you see ministers teach, always trust your feelings, emotional intuition trumps reason and truth.

Instead, especially a Satanist, we should teach what really frightens and dismays us is not external events themselves, but the way in which we think about them. And that's what Kaylee was talking about, the abundance mindset and everything. It's not things that serve us, but our interpretation of their significance.

And that's an Epictetus quote. And then the third one, and I'll shut up in a second, but the third one is the untruth of us versus them. Ministers are teaching life is a battle between good people and bad people.

I am good. They are bad. Instead, we should teach people between stimulus and response.

There is space, and that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. And that's a quote from Viktor Frankl, who survived the Holocaust.

He's actually been through some shit. That's beautiful. So in 2024, I want all of us to be the adults in the room.

Everyone wants TST to be political, to be reactionary, to be nothing but trolls. Instead, I want us to be principled. Let's be the adults in the room.

Let's stay focused and create real, tangible change using our unique tools and resources as statements.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Bravo! Those are great lessons to learn.

[Lilith Starr]
Yeah, I've heard a lot of great suggestions for how to deal with this going forward in ways that, because we have to stop this. It's a hamster wheel, and it just happens over and over again to the point where I'm just like, oh, it's happening again over there. I mean, we're people.

So there's always going to be interpersonal disagreements. As a congregation leader, you're going to have people potentially coming to you with complaints about other people. And so there's all this people drama that we have to deal with because it's part of our job.

But there's also the drama that we can create and fuel with these larger issues, and not thinking before we just launch into a witch hunt, and when we don't get our way, we leave and we spend our lives bashing TST. It's just happened over and over again. And I come from a team building background at a startup, and none of this shit would fly. I mean, I'm not saying, yay, capitalism, but I've led teams, and we were successful because I listened to everyone, especially on their own strengths, and we moved forward together.

But also, it was always a positive undertaking. So as a manager, you're supposed to train your people to come to you, not just with a complaint or problem, but with this possible suggestion for a fix. That's not to say that they have to do a whole bunch more work, but it puts them in the mindset, at least, of, well, how can we de-escalate, how can we recognize our biases?

So those quotes that Murphy just read, the untruths, and the scarcity mindset, I think those are all good things that if people are aware of them, and it takes a long time to develop a habit of being aware of some of this stuff, but I think it's really critical, if we can move the needle little by little, I think we might be able to stop this recurrence. Because it's hurtful. It's hurtful to everybody involved.

In the 2018 split, people who were my dearest friends in TST suddenly weren't. They hated me because I was still part of TST. And it's just like, as all you have said, there are so many bigger fish to fry. Like, and one more thing before, I'm just going to stop talking after this.

So I have this equation that I wish people would use a little more often, and it's what is bothering me greater than the good that TST is doing, you know, should I leave or not, basically. So this year, I was handed a decision that was extremely hard for me to take, personally. I was personally upset, and I considered walking away after eight years.

And I even started kind of pulling back from my congregation. But then I saw firsthand how things changed, you know, because I was part of a group, and people became a little less productive and less enthusiastic. And I really had to think, like, yeah, I'm upset.

And you know, I think I've been wrong. But on the other hand, there's everything that TST does that is critical right now. And also, there's tons of really good people in this community.

And I've never met any other community like it where I feel like it, like I'm at home and people are genuinely trying to make a difference. And it's just that end of the scale is so much heavier that I was like, you know what, this upsets me personally, but in the grander scheme of things, I want to continue helping because we have a real shot at making change in it. And in a time, especially in the US, where it is absolutely critical, where we are looking at the end of our democracy, and the rise of actual theocratic fascism.

And you know, my little butthurt thing doesn't trump that at all. So anyway, the equation do the equation.

[Murphy Fawkes]
When all of this was happening, and it was super embarrassing. I'm not saying that like, I didn't necessarily want to walk away from TST because people acted stupid. But I was very frustrated that this was the optics.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And then Liz and I started talking about what can we do? And we decided to write the letter. And then I can't tell you and I think Liz would agree with me like the like weight that we felt lifted off of our shoulders once we started talking to you guys and you agreed it's just like, okay, like this is our community.

People care. People are smart. We're not.

We're not witch hunters. We know what we're doing.

[Nooki]
I mean, just the fact that this podcast is happening, like I, I can't express enough how much I appreciate you guys for inviting us and everybody for participating. Because like I said, this, this felt to me like I was burning the bridge with TST. And, and, and I said, fuck it. Because like, like we have all been saying, we have a really, really stressful year ahead and we need each other.

Like we are going to have to lean on each other. And we'd be stupid to not take advantage of this beautiful community that has been built. Yeah, stupid.

It's stupid of us to not focus on just learning how to coexist, learning how to trust each other, learning how to deescalate situations, not jump to wanting to out each other or like outcast each other over minor things. It's like, no, we need to, we can't keep doing that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Nooki]
And that's not healthy for anybody.

[Lilin Lavin]
We're supposed to be adults. Yeah. You know.

I think in one of our conversations, you mentioned you've already unpacked and moved in and damn it, you're not moving out.

[Nooki]
Yep. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm literally like, like, if TST was a campus, I live like on one of those benches somewhere.

Like, that's where I'm at. And I'm not going anywhere.

[Murphy Fawkes]
So philosopher that lived in the wine cast. I don't know. But I am that person.

[Nooki]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
At the end of the day, I think the message is more about, hey, how do we unify? How do we stop, you know, blowing up every time something happens that in the grand scheme of things really isn't all that big? You know, I understand maybe you feel hurt right now or you feel angry or you don't like so and so.

But that doesn't mean, you know, blow the whole thing up, you know, because there's a whole lot more good being done. And it's time maybe for some self-reflection.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Why was I angry about this?

[Lilin Lavin]
Why? I don't think we talk enough about learning to sit with our discomfort, to just be uncomfortable with a thought, a feeling, an idea, a situation for a little while and really understand in ourselves, what is making me feel this way? Why am I so reactive to X, Y, Z issue?

And how can I do something to make it different? And I think that's, go ahead.

[Nooki]
I think. Sorry, go ahead. I think ultimately we have to like, I think the root, the root cause of all of this is the fact that if you say the wrong thing, people are going to start a witch hunt against you and you're going to be ousted out from the community.

So it's like we need to knock that shit off, like out the gate. That needs to stop because that is that is the reason why everybody's so like, oh my God, I can't say the wrong thing. And it's like, like, no, we need to be able to talk to each other and we need to be able to have like the conversations that Murphy and Kaylee have.

And we need to be able to just be like, bro, I don't know what the fuck is going on. Like, can you help me? Like, like, that's what community is.

Like, we need to be there for each other. We need to like, it's not about, oh, I read more books and I know more than you and you should be embarrassed that you don't know. No, no.

You need to bring, elevate people, bring people up with like, learn and also people need to learn to to let others do their thing, even if they don't understand it. Like, I've always felt like there's always this sort of like, I don't know, this strange attitude towards movie night. And it's just like, we literally just watch movies, y'all.

Like, that's literally all we do is watch movies on Wednesdays. Like, when they literally like, like how people go to church on Sundays. Wednesday is that for me is when I can just unplug from the world and just be there with my with my community.

And that's it. And it's like, oh, even if you don't understand it, that's fine. But please just let us be.

[Lilith Starr]
Right? And we're Satanists for fuck's sake. You know, and there's something that gives me hope.

And that's that I have seen within the ministry lately. Discussions on how we can like, create a tangible discussion series between us where we practice holding difficult concepts in our mind and discussing like, difficult sensitive context while still like, not internalizing them, not having your emotions take over. And just have that very open mind that you can acknowledge that someone else has a position.

And it's not just automatically stupid. And you should be snarky and, you know, tear it down. But no, that person has good reasons for that belief, even if it's not your belief.

And then from there, agree to have a respectful dialogue that, you know, might end up with both of you agreeing or maybe not, but you're still respecting both each other and also the conversation and not just flying into, you know, fear and terror and, and othering. Because Satanists pretty much have all been othered and we need to stop doing that to each other.

[Kaelea]
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it is a skill.

It's something that needs practice. It really is. And, you know, I think to add on to that, it's also, you know, about understanding that when someone does an action, that's an action.

And we have this tendency to project that onto other people and, you know, turn that into something about the person's character and then kind of extrapolate in this very, like, essentialist kind of way. Like, oh, this person, you know, is X, when instead we should be saying this person did Y. Yeah, that's a very good point.

[Lilin Lavin]
So, we've all shared what we think will be helpful, useful, and how we can all choose to grow and learn through the situation. And I think I'll just close by saying there is no community without unity. And it's a dumb way to look at it and it's really kitschy, but it really is who we can choose to be.

We value critical thinking and knowledge and pushing against the arbitrary authority and we can't become that arbitrary authority and that ignorant aspect that we fight so hard against. So, thank you guys.

[Lilith Starr]
Thank you so much for giving us a platform. I mean, it's true. I think all or most of us had some fear about speaking out.

And we shouldn't as saying this. But, you know, you guys have kind of stuck your necks out for us as well. Now you have our cooties.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'm covered in cooties.

[Kaelea]
It's fine. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, if people are going to not like me because, you know, I gave a platform or I agree with something or I disagree with something else, that's their problem, not mine.

[Lilin Lavin]
All of you are part of the community, though. And we aren't a community without each person here. That's who you're representing is the greater community.

And maybe people are scared to say something, but we are the adversary. And we don't need to be enemies, but we can be adversarial with one another and still accomplish the things we need to do. Yeah, we don't have to like everybody.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, you know, that's that's fine. You can still work with people that you don't.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm very proud of all of you. I think what you did was incredibly satanic. I think what we're doing today opens up the door for conversation if people are willing to move forward with it.

And I am proud to be part of it. So thank you for letting us be part of this with you. I look forward to.

[Lilith Starr]
Thank you so much for having us.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Thanks, everyone. You guys are the best.

[Lilin Lavin]
All right.

[Lilith Starr]
Hail all of you.