Ep.27: Cultivating Critical Minds - Insights from Satanic Parents

# Satanists Nextdoor Podcast
# Episode 27: Cultivating Critical Minds - Insights from Satanic Parents

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So today, we thought we'd lighten the mood a little bit and talk about a subject that really doesn't get a whole lot of airtime or even documentation on it. You're kind of left to figure things out on your own, which is Satanic parenting.

Can you even do that? Demonic parents.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, no, it's funny. It's funny because when I was looking at different things people discuss while I was prepping for this conversation, a lot of resources came up that were religious-based about parenting like Satan and all the awful things. I was really taken aback by that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Sharing knowledge with your children is a horrible thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
From a Christian perspective, a lot of them look at Satan in a very different light and feel that, although it's not really supported even in their own scriptures. Satan is all these very negative things, and yet they don't have the body count that certain other things in that book have, but that's beside the point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So we thought we'd talk about it a lot from our life experience because we are parents. We have four daughters.

Our daughters are older, most of them. One of them is still a teenager. And when we were young Satanists and became parents, there was no TSD.

There was COS, which we were a part of at the time, and we were pretty active members.

[Lilin Lavin]
We had applied for and gotten approved to be grotto leaders for that program that lasted ever so small, little tiny sliver of time. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
But there wasn't a whole lot out there, and especially at that time, parents were almost looked at as like, oh my God, you've got kids, stay away. It's contagious, things like that. So it was a lot of confusion, uncertainty.

And as the internet's grown, as TST's gone out there, I would say one thing that I think TST has done really well is for the entire Satanic community, whether you're TST, COS, whatever, is I think it's made Satanism safer for people in the sense that before TST was out there, doing news interviews and things like that, people had a very different, and when I say people, I mean the general population, not the wacko radicals, which are always going to think Satanists are doing certain things, but I think the general public had a different view of what a Satanist is than they do now. So we were kind of like, well, shit, what do we do? And this question even still came up when we were doing one of our Thursday meetings with people that are just interested in Satanism, our open office meetings.

And we had people bringing up the question, well, how do you treat holidays? What do you do with your kids? So obviously it's, even with as many Satanists as there are out there publicly now, it still seems to be a question, especially for people new coming into Satanism.

How do I do this? Are my kids going to be ostracized? And I think we touched on this a little bit before, and I had mentioned how we kind of took a step back from Satanism and I got some feedback, and I think people misunderstood what I said, like, oh, you don't have to stop being a Satanist to be a parent.

And no, you don't. But what I meant by stepping back was we became less active. We became less visible for the safety of our children at the time, because there was a lot of unknown.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and you got to think, we came off the tail end of the Satanic panics. That was all very vivid in our minds. There was a lot of people that made false claims against individuals that had nothing to do with Satanism, and we watched those individuals be put in jail, many of whom are only just getting out now.

So if you think about that in context, again, these are families that were ripped apart, people that were jailed, and they had nothing to do with Satanism. And here we are, actually Satanist, and what does that look like? And no desire to shit on anyone's, you know, the way they present themselves, but Anton LaVey, who did a lot of amazing things publicly and really pushed things forward as far as modern Satanism goes, did not exactly have what I would call a parental, you know, facade.

There was nothing about him that really came across as parental, unfortunately, even in real life. There was a lot of different opinions about them and the way that they approach things, and parenting is definitely one of the things people had plenty of opinions on. I didn't know him as a person.

I don't individually know any of his children, so I'm not going to speak about what his actual parenting was like. But there is definitely an opinion that people held about him and about Satanism in general at that point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and you know, and then you want to walk a fine line because you don't want to indoctrinate your children. But that doesn't also mean that you lie to your children, you know, about who you are. And so I've always, or I should rephrase that, we have always approached things from an age-appropriate sort of information.

You know, a two-year-old doesn't need to know you're Satanist. They don't give a shit. They're running around still pooping in their diapers and, you know, getting into trouble.

Don't go in that cabinet. Stop climbing on the VCR. Um, but as they get older, it, you know, it kind of does become a topic, you know, and that, again, that sort of depends on if you're public or if you've decided to go more underground and hide who you are from your family.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I don't even want to use the word hide. If you just choose not to associate that stuff with your public life in any way, that's your choice. You get to be as public or as private with something like your beliefs as you choose to be.

And I think we've often talked about that. Even when it comes to Satanism, I'm a non-theistic Satanist, but I do understand that there are theistic Satanists that exist. And again, as long as you're following my basic, don't do this, if you respect bodily autonomy and you're not harming or actively causing harm to any individuals or animals or an animal to me is also an individual.

But yeah, I get that. Lots of people don't have that, but if you're not harming things in the name of your beliefs, I don't really care how you choose to interpret your belief.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, you know, a lot of, and, and I thought it was appropriate to do this, this episode now because of the time of year that it is, you know, we are going into the quote unquote Christmas season, you know, and, um, you know, which again, that, that comes up with the decision. Do you, as parents, uh, celebrate Christmas, like most of the people in the United States, or do you not? And then does your field child feel ostracized because, you know, when they go to school and stuff like that, what you don't celebrate Christmas, well, who are you?

[Lilin Lavin]
Blah, blah, blah. And you're also interacting with other family members at this time of year, right? So if you are in the process of deconstruction and you happen to be a parent, this is a very difficult time because sometimes you, you know, for the, for the better of your family, choose to involve yourself as long as they're not toxic with other family members who your kids love and enjoy being around, which is great.

Again, as if it's not a toxic environment, um, for them to know those people and to have relationships. But sometimes you're dealing with, uh, indoctrination or things that you are exposed to, and it's hard to, to work on those things, especially at this time of year.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so I think back, I mean, when it came to the holidays, um, you know, specifically, well, just for this episode, we'll call it Christmas instead of Sol Invictus or, or winter solstice or whatnot. Um, cause I was raised very atheist.

Yeah. Very, very, very, very, very atheist to the point that when we moved to New York and I was in elementary school, I bought a present for my aunt. Um, and it was this really pretty star that somebody was selling and I bought it because it was a really pretty star.

It turns out it was star Davis. I had no idea what star David was. I had no idea.

You know, I, I just, I had no religious exposure whatsoever, you know? So they had a good laugh over it. And I was like, what the hell?

It's a star. I didn't think anything of it. So we celebrated Christmas, but we celebrated Christmas in the sense that there was this, this, you know, overweight dude on a, on a sleigh with, with, with reindeers that did magic.

And, you know, he got around the world in a night and you got presents and to a child that's, you know, wow, that's cool. You know, again, age appropriate things here, you know, at some point they, they grow out of that, especially if they use critical thinking.

[Lilin Lavin]
Um, you know, um, and our kids, we, we definitely were always much more open with them, but there was that period of time where that, that, um, they knew it wasn't a real thing, but it was fun to go through the motions, you know, no red Santa and staying up to see that and baking cookies and all the weird traditional stuff that we all associate now with the very commercial holiday that we all celebrate. But you know, I think the big thing for people is they don't see Satanist as moral people with principles or values.

How can you have kids when you're not teaching them anything? They run around like heathens and do whatever they want. And, you know, do you even, do you even like have any kind of things you teach them?

And the answer is yes. And we do have morals and values and principles. Um, when you look about, look at it, if you just go, let's just say like COS as an example, they have principles and foundational beliefs.

They actually have, you know, 11 when you look at their specific foundational values, you know, through the rules of the earth. And they, they talk about the different things, you know, don't give opinions or advice unless you're asked, don't tell your troubles to others unless they're sure they want to hear them. Like just basic don't harm children, considerate stuff.

Don't kill animals unless you're going to eat it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. Respect people's homes, respect people's space. It goes through it.

So if you ever want to look, those are there. And then if you go to the satanic temple, then we have our seven fundamental tenants, um, that we use that really go over compassion, empathy toward all creatures, not just, you know, other humans towards everything, respecting freedom, striving for justice. We, we have these things that we definitely feel are foundational.

Now I'm not going to pull aside a kid and say, well, these are our foundational tenants and this is how you're going to live, you know, based on my beliefs. We don't do that. Cause again, indoctrination.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And there is a difference between indoctrination and, and just spreading knowledge, you know, helping a child to understand, you know, why should I not do this? Or, you know, why do you wear an upside down star on your neck again, you know, age appropriate conversations that you can have when they're younger, especially letting kids lead the conversation.

[Lilin Lavin]
If they have a question, stick very closely to the answer specific to the question and don't try to elaborate on it. If they have a followup, they're going to let you know, and that shifts as they get older and the questions become more detailed and the responses then also become more detailed. So keeping things age appropriate, but keeping in mind that Satanism as a belief promotes the idea of individuality and encourages examination of multiple perspectives.

So we keep in our mind that being open to other ways of thinking and being open to different perspectives and challenging our own perspectives as we encounter new perspectives to see whether or not it checks out is very important when you're coming from a satanic foundation. So teaching your kids critical thinking, one of the top things that we do, challenge thoughts, challenge us when we say things not in like a douchey way, but respectfully, like if I say, you know, I really need you to do this, this, this, and this. And they go, you know, I had a long day.

I'm really kind of exhausted. Can we like break this up a bit? Why do you need it done right now?

I'm not going to be mad at them for that. You know, if they said, well, I don't have to do that crap. It's not my business.

Great. No, you don't. You're right.

You don't have to do that crap. And I don't have to provide you these extra special like things that you want to do. You know, that thing you wanted to do on the weekend, the chores that you help with gets you that privilege that lets you go out and do those things.

I don't want to work, but I do it too. So we all have to do things we don't always like to do. And that's just part of being responsible person.

And then you have a conversation. See, it's an open dialogue. It's not like, because I told you to.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And the other part of, of parenting when it comes to Satanism is, you know, we don't have this spare the rod, spoil the child bullshit. You know, I mean, bodily autonomy goes through to children as well.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. You know, from the moment they're born, they are an individual human being and you have to consider their potential wants and needs. They can't really express them.

But, you know, even when it came to, they struggle with just learning how to express that they have wants or needs, you know, just hearing that and trying to figure it out and working to, to, I'm not going to crap on people that, that believe in letting kids cry. That's your parenting style. You're allowed to have that parenting style.

But for me, it was really important for me when I would hear them to give them a few minutes and then go check and then take care of, like, try to figure out their needs. And that was important. And I've always done that from the moment they started to express themselves all the way up.

That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated or feel tired myself and like, oh, you know, what do you, why do you always have to ask, you know, this thing, just, can you help me out and do what I asked you to do? And then they'd be like, but mom.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of this comes into play a lot of parenting, you know, what, what decisions you make and things like that really comes into play after they've grown past the baby years, the toddler years, stuff like that. I mean, because in those years you're basically doing the same thing.

You're changing diapers, you're feeding them blah, blah, blah. It's more as they start to enter into school, interact with other children, start to grow up. And then, you know, the either questions start, start coming as to, and again, this really depends on if you're public or if you just kind of keep things on, on the down low or, or whatnot.

Do you even expose your children to it? You know, do your children, as they start to become teenagers, do your children know you're a Satanist or do they just know that mom and dad don't believe in anything, you know? And so there's a lot of schools of thought on that.

And some people are really, really strict where they're like, well, if you tell them you're Satanist, you're indoctrinating them. And no, that's, that's not true. Indoctrination is you are going to church on Sunday or else you are grounded and blah, blah, blah.

It is not educating. Educating is different than indoctrination. And that tends to sometimes be a point of conflict with people.

And I noticed that it becomes a point of conflict with people who do not have children versus people who have children. So I would say, if you do not have children, it's really hard for you to tell people who have children because you have no experience. You don't understand what that's like.

You, you've never been there. So.

[Lilin Lavin]
But back to like the point, critical thinking encourages you to challenge things that you don't agree with. And one of the biggest things I think we've worked hard to do is encourage our kids to challenge even us to tell them that just because someone's older than you, it doesn't mean that they're inherently smarter or more capable or right. And it's okay to let people earn your respect.

I hated forever, you know, myself as a kid, when people would just act like you earn, like you owe respect to whatever adult happens to be in the room. And I get it that there's some lived experience that is someone older than you has. But for me, respect is something one earns.

And just because you're older does not mean you're worthy of respect. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Because there's older people that do bad things, horrible things to children. And because kids are taught, you just do what grownups say, you know, it puts them in a bad situation with a person like that.

And you should, according to us, as we were parents, we always taught our kids to challenge if something doesn't sound right, then challenge it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Or if something feels wrong, or if somebody says something to you, don't be afraid to tell us because, you know, no matter what a person might tell you can happen. If you share that information, it's better to do that and know that we're going to be here to support you no matter what.

And you develop that really early. So that's another great thing. Satanic parenting for me, bodily autonomy means being able to set healthy boundaries.

And that even goes all the way down to whether or not a relative can hug you. And if you feel uncomfortable, you can give me a look or a signal if you don't feel comfortable speaking out. A lot of kids don't.

And then I step in and go, oh, you know what, we really just have to get going and like scoop them up and like move where they get to avoid, you know, Aunt Linda's pinchy cheek hug or whatever weird smoochy thing somebody does that they just don't like, because your body is yours. And you get to decide if you want people even a hug, you know, and teaching them that they have the right to have boundaries and that people aren't allowed to violate those boundaries.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, even if they're an adult doesn't give them a right to violate a child's boundaries. And that is, you know, I know, that's very different from what your traditional Christian or whatnot will teach, because, you know, they're going to teach the adult is, you know, they have all the say, and you do what the adult says, and blah, blah. And if you don't like it, well, maybe that's you that you need to work on your own issues.

And, you know, it might not be an issue that I don't really want Aunt Linda to come over and give me a big bear hug, pinch my cheeks and do all the stupid shit that they do. You know, I mean, that's just sometimes if you don't want somebody touching you, that's, that's okay.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And that's just, you know, you're teaching them from a young age, foundationally, that they have the right to have boundaries. And I don't think society teaches that enough, that kids have a right to say no, from very early on, people discourage kids from speaking back or saying no.

And I, I've always had a problem with that. Part of it's probably because I did not have the best upbringing. And I went through a lot of different, you know, group homes and stuff like that, where, you know, you don't have a voice, and you don't have a say, and you just have to do what everyone tells you.

And that's very, it's very difficult to live under that kind of weight, where you you have wants and needs that are normal and valuable, but nobody cares about them if it doesn't fit what it is that they're trying to accomplish. So for, for me, and teaching my kids, it was so important that, you know, when we were raising them, that we both gave them the opportunity to speak up, whether or not we agreed with it, you know, sometimes they'd say, like, you know, I can throw a shoe at you if I'm mad, your little kids are going to do things like that. And then it's about how do you respond to that?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no, you can't, because, you know, one, that's disrespectful to the other person, and two, you're, you're looking to hurt the other person. And so that's not okay. And that's where you have actual conversations, which the one thing that I can remember is, when our when, when our children were younger, and I would say, even as young as, as six, I remember a very specific situation, because our, we, we talked to our children, like humans, you know, we didn't, we, we didn't like make stupid, this is your woo, and you know, or, you know, all sorts of things that parents do with kids to try, but we talked to our children, like they were people. And we had a friend who was a smoker at the time.

And I remember our oldest daughter was in the room talking to him. And she started having a conversation. Well, why do you smoke?

And it wasn't like in a mean way, or, you know, like trying to shame him, she was trying to understand why do you smoke? And he was like, I smoke because this and and they went back and forth. And like 15 minutes into this conversation, he was like, Wait a minute, you're like six.

Yeah, but he was having a grown up type conversation. And it just like blew their mind that well, wow, this six year old is talking to me in the same level that an adult normally was.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was funny, because it was kind of like a early addiction intervention conversation. And like, she's really going in this like, well, you know, there's better ways to deal with stress and frustration. And I'm like, Oh, here we go.

But she would have these really great points. And she's still really a very communicative person to this day. And if you sit and talk with her, you will definitely understand their learn something and learn.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the cool part about being a parent for me, especially as a Satanist, because I encourage those, you know, wild thoughts and push them to explore what they're curious about and support it. And the other thing we often get asked, well, how do you deal with other religions?

That's just about to go there. That's a fantastic question. Well, how do we deal with it is we if we don't have enough knowledge on it ourselves, the specific question that they want to have an answer to, we try to find reputable people that are already part of that religion to talk to.

Yeah, we actually go and talk to people that are different beliefs, because as interfaith community members, we definitely want to be involved with other faiths and other individuals. And so we brought our children to mosques, we brought our children to Buddhist temples. I don't know if we found a synagogue.

I don't know if at the time there was one in our area, but that one definitely we would be, you know, as many things as we could bring them to, we brought them to especially if they had curiosity.

[Tommy Lavin]
And this is kind of getting into the young teenage sort of years when children are starting to have these sort of thoughts. Why am I here? What's the Jeffrey goes to this thing with their parents?

[Lilin Lavin]
And what is that about? Or, you know, so and so said, they have to pray at lunch. And why do you do that?

And actually, we had that conversation much younger, because we actually had our first kids here in Texas. And some of their playgroup friends, I remember this distinctly before they were even in school, the one little girl had to pray before they could have a snack. When we go to the park, we do playdates.

And the mom constantly like you have to pray before you can have a snack. And my daughter says, Why do they do that? That's so weird.

Like, do you have to ask permission to eat the snack from from God? I was like, Well, no, it's a whole different thing. And we had a whole conversation about prayer and, and why they asked, you know, to give thanks and the different things that are involved in that.

And I said, you know, if you have questions, you should ask their mom, like, why do you guys pray before you eat? And so encouraging them to understand what is your perspective? Why?

Why do you do this? So we would have those conversations pretty early on. And again, sticking to the question and not trying to, to go past it, letting them come to you with the follow up.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, so as as Satanists, most of us understand what it's like to be ostracized, and even ostracized from your own family. And the one thing I one of the things that I never wanted my children to feel was any sort of ostracization for any choices that they made. So, you know, they knew that if they wanted to explore a certain religion, we would fully support them.

It wasn't big, you know, even though we were Satanists, if they wanted to go to a Christian church and go to youth group, they, they could do that. And we would answer questions, you know, they would come back and answer questions. And, you know, sometimes we had to have conversations with other family members, because they would make comments that were definitely on the indoctrination, or the, you know, trying to scare children into it.

You know, we had their grandparents tell them that, you know, in mom and dad die, you will never see them again, because they don't believe in, in God and Jesus. And I had to have a pretty stern phone call with my parents on that one, which is, again, odd, because as I said, I was raised atheist, they just kind of went as they got older. You know, and I had to put boundaries in there for, you know, this, you can't say that sort of shit to my, my children, you can answer their question, as long as you're doing it in a way that isn't, you know, I mean, you got to think to a child, if you say you're never going to see your parents again, that is scary.

You know, that's terrifying to a child. So, or it was like, if you can't, or feel like you aren't able to do that without dredging in your indoctrination, then tell them to ask their parents, and we'll answer the question for them, or for you, you know, and so it is really important. As a Satanist, I feel it's very important that your children know that they have support, whether they're straight, whether they're, you know, whether they're on the LGBTQIA spectrum, whether they're exploring other religions, you know, anything like that, they should have the support of their parents and not be ostracized.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I've always personally had an issue with the notion that as a parent, you have the right to put all of these, you know, boundaries in. I really think when you love your child, you accept them however they are. You don't have all these weird expectations, and I guess I've never, I've never personally been able to understand the boundary love thing that a lot of parents have.

You know, if my child is gay, straight, you know, interracial, whatever the hell it is that they choose to do with their life, you want to have an interracial relationship? Cool. Is your partner a good person?

Do they love you? Do they respect you? That's all I care about.

I don't care where they come from. I don't care how they look. I don't care what their gender is.

I don't care about any of that. Are you happy? Do they treat you good?

Do you treat them good? Are you guys happy together? In the end, you know, are they respecting you?

And that goes for everything. Are you in a belief system that respects you, that supports you, that encourages you, that you feel you can grow in? And so those are the kind of things that matter to me, seeing when they just, you know, decide what career they want to go into.

Is this satisfying to you? Do you feel like it's something that you can grow with? Do you, you know, have other aspirations?

How can I support you? That's what, to me, parenting is. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I remember we had one of our kids that when she was a teenager, she started going to youth group on a pretty regular basis, you know, and we supported her and all that. And, but I asked her once, I was like, you know, out of curiosity, you know, what, what are you getting out of this? Why are you going?

And she was like, oh, well, they give out candy and I don't care about their bullshit beliefs. I don't believe them. I just, you know, they give out candy and food.

So I'm going to take the candy and food, because if they're going to give out free candy and food for that, then, hey, I'm going to do that. And I get to hang out with some of my friends and, you know, play some games, but, you know, and I was like, okay, but you do understand that if that interests you, that's okay. You know, you, you were not going to be mad or upset or anything like that.

And she was like, oh, no, no, no. I, I totally get that. I'm, I'm really there for the candy.

I was like, okay, cool.

[Lilin Lavin]
So I was like, okay, well, if you're happy with it, do it. But no, it's, it's funny because that is definitely, we would never have had a problem with it. We were really curious because they just you never heard about it or really saw anything about it.

And so I was like, so what do you guys do? What, what is it? And then she went through the whole thing.

I was like, oh, yeah, I get it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Normally, when somebody is, is starting to be indoctrinated, you can kind of tell because they start to talk about it all, you know, and, you know, they bring it up all the time, they try and convert other people and stuff like that. And none of that was happening. So it was just really a question of curiosity, as far as you know, you know, out of curiosity, why are you going?

Well, okay, candy, pizza, that'll make sense to me. Cool. Well, go as much as you want.

And if you want to stop going and stop, you know, that's up to you. Just let us know what support you need from us.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we're there for you. Yeah. And, and we'll be the first ones to say, you know, we did not do everything perfect.

We definitely had areas where we probably definitely could have improved early on. We were young when we started into parenting, and we learned a lot along the way. And then as we look forward to being grandparents, which is something that actually will be happening, oddly enough, in our life, it's now how do we, how do we then take what we've learned and use that and help with our kids with parenting or use that to help in raising, you know, our grandchild.

So I'm very excited about that chapter. But, you know, I think it comes back to the whole thing on indoctrination and how you avoid and just being the best support and being the most loving person and, you know, guiding and providing a sounding board when things maybe aren't healthy or good or are concerning, knowing how to tactfully have that conversation. Because I'll tell you what, what I learned as a parent is many tell them like, don't do the thing.

They're going to do the thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I mean, like you said, we were really young when, I mean, we were adults, but we were still young adults, you know, very inexperienced. Both of us kind of had, I mean, you had a really, really fucked up childhood.

Yeah, I had a fucked up childhood in a different way. You know, so when we became parents and the question, do we, you know, do we stay active as Satanists and not at that time? I think we made the right choice at this time.

I probably would have done it a little different, but again, that's because I feel like TST has made Satanism safer in general, you know. But there's still aspects that, you know, I, I look back at and, and you know, I don't, I don't know how I would be right now coming out of the gate if we were having our first child and we were very young again, you know, it's, it's, it is, there's not really a manual out there for it. I know what I used to guide me was all the things my parents did that sucked.

I kind of said, I'm never doing that. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

And I, I stuck by that, you know, pretty well. And I know there was a point where, you know, you were interested in, in Christianity and, and it was more of a community because being a Satanist can be lonely, especially pre TST, pre internet, the way pre social media, pre social media and pre TST. We had internet forums and stuff, but for all the things that they do have, and they do have a community, they do have groups that get together.

[Lilin Lavin]
They do some events. I'm not going to say there aren't things that they, they, they do things. It's just very different.

And the thing I love about TST is, you know, we have congregations, congregation leaders get to kind of set the pace based on what their community wants and work with their community to try and bring those things to life. And then, as congregation heads, our responsibility is to hear those things and do what we can to push for them. And that's, that's the cool dynamic, right?

So you build that community, you create it into something that becomes a safe, fun environment for individuals to then experience Satanism and have what a lot of other religions bring. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, so that was, that was sort of the, the reason why you started exploring that at one point.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm so happy. And honestly, they seemed like they had a great support system. The kids were all involved.

There was a lot of things from the outside that seemed really interesting about it. And it was something I didn't really have any experience with. So, you know, we had moved and we were in a new place.

I believe I was invited to some of the Bible studies by one, my neighbor at the time, who was a lovely woman. And, you know, I kind of went from there where I was just really curious, but the whole time it was a lot of, sometimes they would get frustrated because I'd always ask a lot of questions, which I think was kind of the downfall of why it was a very, it was a long period, but it was also very short. It was only a couple of years.

And in the grand scheme, it's not long, but it was, it was long enough. Yeah. It was long enough.

And of course, being the overachiever that I am, I had to choose some evangelical churches, right? Because those are the ones that you definitely want to try out when you're, when you're exploring something. And so that may have probably been a bit of a color into what my experience was, though.

I did know some folks that were Methodist and Lutheran and got to hang out with them and have conversations. And I have to say they were a lot more down to earth and open-minded and interesting to interact with.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But I mean, I heard this a long time ago when I first started exploring Satanism. And I heard it again.

I've heard it in COS. I heard it in TOS and I heard it in, you know, just about every left-hand path is once you've gone down the left-hand path, it's kind of like you've poked holes in that veil. It's really hard to put that veil back on and be blind to everything that your eyes were open to before about, you know, all the bullshit.

And it is really hard to just accept and swallow all that bullshit that comes along with, you know, religion like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
And even, you know, our kids who were all pretty much still young when we started doing that, they were not very excited about it. They did not enjoy a lot of the, they went to the classes, they did the Sunday school thing. I mean, they tried it.

We all tried it. And they just were very underwhelmed with their experience. And not because we weren't really giving it a good go.

We did. It just didn't make sense. We tried to make sense of it.

It just really, the community was cool. A lot of the folks were great people, you know, provided you believed as they did. Once it became clear that we weren't necessarily in line with that, a lot of them, you know, slowly kind of pulled back.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then we were like, screw that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Because my I mean, I know with me, and even with you, you know, our core beliefs never really changed, you know, and which is why we would ask so many questions, you know, and we would poke holes in this or that or this or that. And we just I don't think you know, when I look back at that part of our lives, we truly weren't happy, you know, because we were trying and it really was, again, you have to understand the time no social media, no real contact with other Satanists other than maybe an IRC channel or something like that, you know,

[Lilin Lavin]
and I mean, I think towards the end, it was like my space was still going, but it was starting to end and there was like early, early Twitter, maybe, but there really wasn't still like identified communities in that way.

So yeah, there were conversations out there. But there was a lot of interesting, I mean, you'll find them still today. There's some interesting folks

[Tommy Lavin]
that call themselves sweetness, but you know, yeah, so all that being said, I think now I probably would have approached it a bit different than back then, because back then it really was is a safe, you know, are my kids going to be ostracized, I would say the current generation is a lot more accepting, inclusive is the word I should use, you know, than they were back in the day.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I would say approachable. I think Satanism now with with a lot of the work that TST has put into it, there is a community that is available and present and out there doing things and people can see what they're doing. And so it's not such a mystery.

What are they? What are they all about? What are they doing?

Killing cats at midnight? Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, again, you're never going to get away from that with with radicals. You know, I still hear to this day, people still message me and tell me how I'm, you know, murdering babies and drinking their blood and all of that sort of stuff. And you know, I guess I got a really bad case of sleepwalking or something because I just don't remember.

Yeah. But no. But yes, as as as parents, you know, your job is is to help guide and support your children.

I would say that's the most important part of being a parent. And I don't think that changes whether you're a Satanist or you're an atheist or you know, even if you're other religions, just other religions push you into indoctrination for your children, whereas Satanism is very much against indoctrinating children.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And again, you know, then you go back to the argument of what is indoctrination.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm going to snatch up a little airtime here, because there was something I read that really stuck with me by a neuropsychologist named Nicholas Humphrey. And he had this, he did an Oxford amnesty lecture quite some time ago. And what he said, really, I think captured it best.

And I'm gonna just go through like the smaller segment of this. But he said, children, I'll argue, have a human right not to have their minds crippled by exposure to other people's bad ideas. No matter who those other people are, parents correspondingly have no God given license to enculturate their children to whatever ways their personally choose no right to limit the horizon of their child's knowledge to bring them up in an atmosphere of dogma and superstition, or to insist they follow the straight and narrow path of their own faith.

In short, children have a right not to have their minds addled by nonsense. And we as a society have a duty to protect them from it. So we should no more allow parents to teach their children to believe, for example, in the literal truth of the Bible, or that the planets rule their lives, then we should allow parents to knock their children's teeth out or lock them in a dungeon.

And I really thought, well, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense to me. So you have to carefully consider what what it is you're exposing your kids to. And you have to give them the opportunity to to challenge that, and to have an opinion and to have a voice and to teach them to use that voice and to speak for themselves.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, as our children grew up, as they become teenagers, as they become young adults, obviously, they knew who mom and dad are. Now, they know that, you know, every single one of our children now know that we're Satanists, they're, they're all 15 and above, you know, some of them are in their 20s.

There's no use of hiding that, you know, and we always had a library of various books, you know, from everything from sci fi to some satanic books, you know, all sorts of stuff, which was accessible to our children, if they were interested in reading them, you know, and again, we would answer questions, as they became teenagers, they did become more curious, as far as you know, hey, you know, what is this?

What is this thing y'all do? And we would always as we explain things, always, always, always make sure they understood, look, just because we follow this path does not mean you need to follow this path doesn't mean you need to be interested in it doesn't mean you need to do anything. You be you and if it interests you, cool, I'll answer questions for you.

You know, really, I don't think you should join any religious organization until you're about 18 and can make your own your own mind up. But that doesn't mean as a teenager, you know, sometimes TST congregations will have family friendly events, you know, obviously, that's not a black mass.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And then if you look at like the recent thing we were involved in with the Protect Children project, where if you affiliate, that doesn't mean you're necessarily a full fledged member. But if you as a youth affiliate with Satanism and identify as a Satanist, then you have the right to the same protections religiously that you would for other things.

I mean, for me, and this is me speaking as me, for me, when you have parents out there pushing their kids to like not get vaccinations or things that are healthy and important for them, and then you have religious exemptions for that. What I like is for as a Satanist, you have the right to not have things pushed on you, you have the right to use the bathroom, you have the right not to be struck in school, you have the right not to be restrained. These are things that are based on that, again, bodily autonomy that I always say is so important, because it applies to just about everything in your life.

You know, as a younger person, having the right to have the backing of a religious organization. Some people use that negatively, right, for certain other things to have the backing of religious organization and say, No, you're not going to violate these young people, they have rights to.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, because me myself, I, I got interested in Satanism. And I read the Satanic Bible before I was 18. You know, I, I kind of knew I identified in that way.

Before that, I just couldn't join anything until I was 18. And I understand that. But it would have been nice to at least be able to say, you know, and I remember even as a teenager, I would still claim that I was a Satanist.

But that was me myself, I, I consciously made that choice. I didn't need a red card to, to prove that or to officially be a Satanist, you know, and as a child, or a teenager, I should say, if a teenager has done their own research and has made up their own mind, then then great, they can do that. Because the wonderful thing about being human is you can change your mind.

You know, and as long as your children know that you're going to support them, as they go through different phases, as they as they explore themselves, you know, as they explore who they are, that's the most important thing, you know, because somebody might identify as a Satanist as a teenager. And then when they get a little bit older, they might say, you know what, I don't identify as that anymore. Now I'm this and then people will take their whole lives to go through religious, you know, what are the discoveries, you know, some people, it takes them a long time.

And that's fine. It should, it should. And, and you should always challenge even, even as long as I've been a Satanist, I should still challenge myself, does this still fit for me.

And that's the one thing that, you know, that's one of the other things we we tried to as parents instill in our children is, you know, continue to challenge yourself, continue to educate yourself and know just because you identify as, as whatever, be it religion or something like that, that doesn't mean you're stamped with that for the rest of your life. You know, use your critical thinking skills and understand you can change that. And us as your parents, we're going to love you anyways.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Conditional love. Like I said, really trips me up.

I don't understand it. I get people have boundaries, limitations, preferences. I get all that.

That's fine. But when it comes to being a parent, your kids never, to be fair, chose you as parents, there was no way for them to, so you're kind of obligated to be the best parent you can be and give them the best experience you can so that you can send them out into the world to be confident individuals that have the skills they need to start life. That's your whole entire goal and hopefully a life better than yours.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so, you know, like I said, this, this subject came up, it comes up, you know, from time to time as we talk to new people, sometimes even as, as other satanic parents meet and talk to each other, how did you do this? Why did you do that?

You know, blah, blah, blah. But around the holidays, it can become even more so because then you're interacting not only with your own children, but a lot of times people are interacting with other family members. And how do I do this?

You know, do we, do we put a Christmas tree up or not? No, you know, my answer is kind of like, well, do you want a Christmas tree? You know, are your children interested in it?

[Lilin Lavin]
It's okay to have like what people consider traditional celebrations and traditional, you know, activities too. It's fine to put up a tree. It's fine to put up, you know, pictures of Santa or to, to talk about fun things like that.

Or it's fine to, to have these kinds of traditions just because you're a Satanist doesn't mean you can't have these traditions.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, the Christmas tree and stuff was stolen anyway. So, you know, that's a whole other, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we kind of did have that conversation, but yeah, I mean, so a lot of things were stolen anyway. So, you know, claim them back if you want to.

[Lilin Lavin]
We also like, we've talked about, we know lots of pagan individuals and they also do very different celebrations. You can do join in with those folks, enjoy those celebrations, involve your kids, celebrate Yule, celebrate Solstice, go to some of these events and, you know, stop by the library, pick up some cool books. I know maybe your library is not as accepting to these things, but go to the library and pick up some cool books about different types of celebrations and share that with your kids.

Ask them what they like, create your own traditions.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I remember one year I even tried to be, I tried to have different members of family over and I tried to be. The encompassing celebration.

Sort of an encompassing all-inclusive celebration. I said, we are going to celebrate Christmas, Yule, Solstice, Sol Invictus, you know, whatever the hell you want. We are going to celebrate that.

If you want to go in the corner and pray before your food, do that. If you don't, don't, you know, and as we celebrate, we're just supposed to be celebrating the company of each other, you know, the joy of family and all of that sort of stuff. And I think it worked well for some, and it did not work well for my very Christian parents.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I argue though, I argue that it didn't work well because I think having the opportunity to do it right, being open to it, letting the kids participate in all those different things, choose how they want to participate, letting your parents know it's fine for them to pray. I don't care if you pray in my house. It's not like we're going to burst into flames or anything like that.

So go ahead. It's your call. Do it.

The only time I've ever had a problem with their specific religious beliefs, the way that they interpret them is like, there was this very sort of, I guess, backhanded crap on their whiteboard where it's like, must pray for so-and-so and their family. I was like, okay, that's a little, but I don't care if you pray.

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't care if you invite my kids to pray with you because, you know, as long as you give them the freedom to say no and don't hold it against them or make them feel pressured, because that's sort of where we gave our kids like almost a safe word, which is kind of sad that you have to do that when it comes to really radical religious people. But, you know, if they didn't want to do something, they could either say something or throw us a look or something like that. And then we would intervene and say, you know what, they don't want to do that.

And so you guys go do what you're going to do and, you know, we're going to be hanging out here. And when you're done, we're still all going to be hanging out here and you can spend more time with your grandkids.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But that's again, like the important thing is empowering your kids to learn to be confident. And that's a great way to build their confidence is to help them understand that they do have the right to enforce boundaries, even as a kid.

And that just helps them to grow in that and be more able to speak for themselves and on their own behalf eventually. Maybe they don't, but kids are supposed to be learning and being afraid to confront a difficult situation is very natural. You know, helping to encourage them, you know, if you if you are uncomfortable, you can say something, letting them know like you have a voice.

But if you're not comfortable enough, then we can step in. But you do want to help them to start to do their own speaking up. That doesn't mean you force them into, you know, tell them to go fuck themselves.

Obviously, you're not telling your kids to do that. What you're saying is, you know, you're okay to say, you know, I'd rather not or no, thank you or do it that way. But if you really just don't feel like you, you enjoy this, because it's a very confrontational situation for a kid.

Then just let us know and we'll intervene. And we've done that before. You know, I know they got invited to like a dinner or something with your with your parents.

And I think they meant well, because it wasn't during normal church hours. I'm just saying, in their own way, they thought it was a happy medium, right? So they invited the kids to this spaghetti dinner that was at the church property, but it wasn't during church hours, but the church folks were going to be there, but it wasn't about prayer.

And this is the explanation they're giving us. And so the kids kind of said, Hey, I got this invitation. I really don't want to do it.

And I'm not sure how to approach it. Because I could tell they really want to hang out and I want to hang out with them too. I don't want to do it here.

So then me being me, and if you guys know me, you know, I went ahead and send a message pretty direct. So hey, you know, the kids mentioned that you guys want to do this thing. And I know we've talked about it.

But they don't want to go to church or, you know, be on the church, you know, property or do the events. And they were like, Well, it's not church function. Because even though it's at the church, they're not doing anything formally.

I said, No, no, but it's on the church property.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's on the church property. It's run by the church people. It is an event put on by the church.

[Lilin Lavin]
So yeah, I get that you don't see it as a church function, because it's outside of the normal hours, which is fine. But they're going to still probably have some of the very normal associated events. And the kids really just would rather not so can we schedule something at different point.

And this led to a whole thing. Yeah, it really did. It became back and forth text messages that turn into emails that turn into an actual physical meeting, which, which, you know, went less than stellar.

We've talked about that meeting, where I may have slipped and said, Well, I'm a Satanist. So this forgiveness method that you're talking about is completely foreign to me, because forgiveness is action. And I don't just forgive.

And that that became a whole other conversation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I would say as as parents, you also have to, you know, part part of your job is to protect your children and to realize when something is going on. And we noticed something very early on, as we were trying to allow our children to have a relationship with their grandparents, is that the only night they wanted them to sleep over was Saturday night. And it did not take very long for me to figure out, okay, the only reason why they want them to sleep over is so that they can bring them to church in morning, which again, I was okay with my children going to church if they wanted to go to church.

But when it crosses over a new indoctrination, that's when I was not okay with it. And I was like, you know, y'all are retired. So you can literally have the children over any night of the week.

It's not like you have to get up, go to work in the morning or anything like that. So it becomes pretty transparent when the only night is Saturdays. And that's when, again, as parents, we had to step in and just kind of call bullshit to that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and to be fair, at first, we were fine, because the kids were fine with it. And so we were fine with it, they became uncomfortable, what they weren't necessarily telling us. And again, kids don't feel comfortable articulating things even to you, even if you've been safe and listen, and all those things, you know, you have to check in with them, because they don't feel comfortable sharing certain things.

It's just the way they are. So it became apparent when our, you know, second youngest, so we've got two older, two younger. And so the older of the two younger ones says, they make me get up early, I don't like doing it, they get really mad and frustrated when I don't want to do it, because I'm not awake, or I don't want to.

So it was pretty clear that not only were they getting them up early and bringing them to church, but they didn't actually want to go. And they were pretty much making them feel like it was rude of them to be there, and they were obligated to participate. And that is exactly what I didn't want to have happen.

So when they made it clear, you know, this is what's happening, this is how I feel, because how they're making me feel, then we addressed it at that point.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so, you know, it's, again, as a, as a Satanist and a parent, it's, you know, not all that difficult. You know, you just, you, I just keep going back to you give your children support, you know that you're there for them.

And that includes even in school, you know, I mean, we, we, we taught our children the same thing that, you know, TST, we had the demonstration about up in, in, in Dumas. Before TST even had this program, we were out there teaching our kids. We were already teaching our kids this, you know, if you need to go to the bathroom, you go to the bathroom, you know, if the school gets pissed at you, have them call me, you know, you're never going to get in trouble at home.

Unless you're abusing the privilege. Right. You know, so as long as you're not like abusing, you're not skipping class on purpose to go to the bathroom and hanging out in the bathroom the whole time, you know, if you have to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom, if the school gets you in trouble, well, fuck the school, you're not going to be grounded here or anything like that.

And I remember our second oldest daughter, she, when she was in high school, she was like, Hey, I need to use the bathroom to the teacher. And the teacher said, no, which always baffled my mind. I'm like, you know, in this day and age, you know, we're, we're not training children to be in the 1920s factory line where, you know, you have to stand on the line for eight hours before you can take a pee break or something like that.

You know, most every job I've ever had in my life from McDonald's to whatever, if I had to go pee, I could go pee, you know? And so she stood up and the teacher said, what are you doing? And she said, look, I have to go pee.

So either I'm going to pee in the trash can here in front of the class, or I'm going to go to the bathroom and go pee. You make your choice. Tell me which one you want me to do.

And knowing this daughter of ours, she would have actually peed in the trash can in front of the class. Yeah, she would. That's one of the things I love about her.

She's my very bold, very outspoken one. And the teacher, you know, let her go to the bathroom and there was no con, you know, we never got a phone call or anything like that. The school's learned really early.

The school's learned if you are an active parent and you stick up for your children, and you don't let them do the bullshit that they try and pull with other kids, they learn really quick that it's kind of pointless to call you.

[Lilin Lavin]
They're not going to make any progress. Like when you're, we probably already mentioned this one. When the phone situation happens to our second youngest, they said they were in school and it was during a period, they were allowed to kind of look at their phones on and off, but they had picked it up, I guess, in a period where they weren't necessarily supposed to because they were checking something.

I think it's because they weren't feeling good and they were trying to reach out to me. But they picked up the phone and the teacher's like, well, you know, I'm going to take up your phone and you need to let me into the phone. And then hilarity ensued.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I get a phone call from the principal at school and the principal's like, we have so-and-so here in our office with us. And I'm like, okay. And they're like, you know, she was, she used her phone in class.

She wasn't supposed to. And when we asked her for her phone and to give us access to her phone, she denied us, said, no, do you have a warrant? And so there was a pause and I said, well, do you have a warrant?

And then there was a really, really long pause from the principal. And she said, no, I don't think you understand. I said, no, no, no.

I don't think you understand. Look, if my child uses a phone when they're not supposed to, that's fine. Write her a detention.

You can do that. You can tell her to take her phone and put her phone away. If she doesn't listen, you can discipline her by giving her a detention or whatever it is.

But you do not have the permission to open up her phone and go through her phone. Why would you need to go through her phone? Well, we wanted to see who she was talking to or what she was doing on the phone.

If she was cheating or something, I was like, does this during a test? No. Okay.

Then again, why are you wanting to, you know, it's just a power trip that the schools get into sometimes. And I was like, look, again, I'll support. If y'all want to give her a detention, give her a detention, but you don't touch that phone unless you have a warrant.

And that was the last time they called me about anything like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
True story. It's just, it's weird. And there's many different instances where the schools have done some very shady things.

Our oldest one had a teacher actually throw away a project and pretend they didn't get that project turned in. And then I made them pull up the video, which happened to be. And then the teacher got caught lying.

I mean, again, just because you're an adult and they're older than you does not make them honest or correct or people that deserve your respect. Adults can be just as crappy as anybody else. And as a kid, learning that early is very important to identify people that are good or bad based on how they treat you and how they behave is a very important skill.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep. And with our oldest, it was because she was gay. She was openly gay in high school.

And so the teacher was trying to pull a fast one and basically make her get a zero on her final exam, which was a, you know, a project she put together.

[Lilin Lavin]
What they didn't expect is that I would fly practically up to the school and directly telling them that they're going to have me with the principal immediately. I needed a meeting immediately with them. And then this was going to be sorted.

They did not expect that kind of like ferocity to just hit them in the doorstep. So I just showed up. We're going to do this.

I need to know about this. This is what happened. What are we doing?

And they were to their credit. The administrator immediately pulls up the video, immediately sees that, in fact, it was turned in and then handled the situation. And again, this is how screwed up this was.

It was found behind the trash. So it was a big poster board that they had worked on all like the last.

[Tommy Lavin]
This isn't like a little.

[Lilin Lavin]
Little big thing that they put under the door because the teacher told him they had to turn it in and they weren't in the classroom. The door was closed, so they put it under the door and the trash wasn't like right by the door where they may have accidentally pushed it when the door opened. It was up by a table against the blackboard area.

And so or whiteboard didn't really use anymore.

[Tommy Lavin]
The other the teacher actually had another teacher next door that lied to and said that our daughter was never in the hallway before 730 because she was standing out there the whole time and then didn't expect them to run the tape. They didn't realize. I guess people still are dumb enough to not realize.

You're on video almost anywhere you go, anything you do now, especially in the school. So it was really easy to kind of prove that one and show them both on video and show the teacher on video and all that. So it is important, you know, again, that's another life skill to your kids.

Yeah. One, listen to your children when they when they talk to you and they tell you something. I mean, it's also important for children to understand.

And when I say children again, this was she was a teenager, but she's still a minor to understand that just because an adult does something doesn't make it right. And just because another adult backs up that adult doing something wrong doesn't make it right. And if you know you're in the right that your parents will always support you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, hopefully, hopefully. And that's what I hope it not as a Satanist. I would hope as parents give your kids the benefit of the doubt and understand growing up is hard.

Figuring out your place in society is hard. Knowing who you are. I still don't even always know who I am.

And I'm a whole ass adult. So, you know, give them a little leeway. This is a very challenging period of their life.

Remember what it was like for you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I was about to say, I think a lot of parents, they get this amnesia. They forget what it was like to be a child. They forget what it was like to be a teenager.

And then the other thing that I see a lot of parents do is they live vicariously through their children because they weren't able to do this. They forced their child into doing something their child doesn't want to do. You have to join the cheer squad because I had always wanted to be on the cheer squad, and I didn't get that opportunity.

So you have to do it. Well, the you have to do it is the problem there. Now, if the child's interested in it, sure, support them and all of that sort of stuff.

But as a parent, you don't live vicariously through your children. That's that's wrong. No, you allow your children to be their own individuals.

[Lilin Lavin]
You can say, I really enjoyed choir. You know, maybe you want to look at that as an option for your electives or I really liked this specific class. Then your kid goes, well, you know, I hate choir.

I have no interest in singing. And it's just like the worst thing you could possibly offer up as an option. Then you go, OK, cool.

What are you interested in doing?

[Tommy Lavin]
What else can you do?

[Lilin Lavin]
What else do you want to do?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, you want to do art. OK, cool.

I will support you with that, you know, and understand that things change. Sometimes somebody is interested in something and and then they start to do it and they realize they don't like it. You know, it's happened to me.

I know I've done stuff that I thought I liked. And then when I started doing it, I realized I didn't like it. You know, and imagine somebody forcing you to say, well, you pick that you have to go all the way through.

That's not being supportive. You know, that's that's again.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. I mean, but it's a fine line, right? You want to encourage them because, you know, the inclination to quit when things are difficult, definitely happens.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes.

[Lilin Lavin]
So you want to help them to learn that you can work through difficulties. So you ask them, why is it you don't like it? What is it about it you don't like?

Is this something that you can try and work through? But if it's something obviously they just I thought I would like it. It just really doesn't interest me.

I'd like to go to something else.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, if the answer from wherever is, well, right now we can't change it, but at this point you can, then it's you know what? We're going to have to see it through to this and then you can change. Or sometimes it's, you know, support your kids in the art of quitting when something isn't healthy or working for them.

That's something not enough people do. It's okay to fail at something. It's okay to learn from that experience.

It's okay to know what your limits are and to stand by that. People do it with work. Sometimes you'll stay in a job or a relationship or different things that aren't healthy because you feel like you have to.

That is something you have no choice in. And teaching someone early on how to navigate that reality is so important. And so letting them know failing is normal.

And what did you learn from that? And what did you figure out about yourself? And what can you take from that and move forward or knowing that you can have an out like, I just don't really enjoy this and I don't want to do it.

I thought I would. It's okay. You figured that out.

That's all that matters.

[Tommy Lavin]
And failure is a learning point. That's the other thing that we taught our children is failure is an opportunity and it's what you do with that failure that matters. I mean, you look at the most successful people in life.

They failed. They failed multiple times. It's what they did with that failure and what they learned from that failure.

So if you keep failing the same way over and over and over and over and over again, then you've got a problem. But if you fail and so many parents just don't teach the art of failing to their children, you know, failure is bad. Failure means you did something wrong.

You're grounded for failing. No, it's a learning experience. And at least that's the way that we always approach that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or it's an indicator. You know, I believe our second oldest had, they'd done very well in school for the most part, and then they just reached a period. So then we had to start having a conversation.

Is it the subject matter? Is it the environment? Is it something going on in your personal life?

What's happening? And it was through that process of discussion that we realized something else is going on. We ended up working with a neurologist and then getting them on medication that was helpful for them to help work through that problem.

Then their grades came right back up. They were able to adjust to things. They got some 504 plan at school that we helped to shape with the school administration.

And that's just it. Don't just shut down your kids and say, well, obviously you got a C, you got a D. What's going on here?

What's wrong with you? Why aren't you applying yourself? Maybe they are applying themselves.

It's so important to stop and say, hey, I'm seeing this drop. It's really different for you. What's going on?

Do we need to do some studying? Do we need to get you in on a tutoring program? What can we do to help you?

Because we're noticing this and what you do here in school is going to eventually apply to if you want to go to college and things like that. So it's important to consider to how we can fix these things so that you can be able to achieve.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, I think that all comes back down to supporting your children. I think if your children feel safe at home, if they feel safe and supported, they will open up to you.

And most issues can be solved through a conversation at that point. And that is the environment that we set for our children. Again, our oldest came out to us as gay pretty early.

She was eighth grade, ninth grade.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, it was a funny. It was not funny. Like, haha, that was a funny thing that happened.

It was funny because I know I had noticed them being her and her. They're still together, her and her girlfriend at the time. We're very close.

They did a lot of things. It was a little more than just friendship. And I can definitely tell.

You could definitely tell. And at one point, I know we were just joking and talking. And I said, well, when are you going to finally just tell me that you guys are dating?

And it was just one of those moments where, you know, we all had a good laugh about it because we just had that kind of relationship. And so even though it was something that was probably difficult to broach on, and maybe she wasn't entirely comfortable saying it outright yet, just having that relationship and seeing that opportunity, it turned into a good conversation. And it turned into a good opportunity for us to be able to have that discussion.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And flip side, her, her fiance's family. I mean, they dated for nine years before she even said anything. And her parents were willfully ignorant.

And I mean, you go to the prom with this person, you go to homecoming with this person, you never dating any other boys or anything like that. You know, obviously, if you have a set of eyes and an open mind, you're going to understand what's going on. They didn't.

And they tried to pass it off as a phase. And it's like, well, it's been a 10 year phase. This is a pretty fucking long phase, you know, and they're still having a hard time accepting it.

And it's been years since they, they were, they were told. So, you know, it was, it was interesting because her partner could see the contrast between a house that was safe, parents that were supportive. She even looks at us as, as parents, you know, because we've been around for so long, she's had a safe space here, you know, and then she goes to her house and it's not supportive.

[Lilin Lavin]
That they don't love her. They do obviously very much love her. Yes.

Um, and, and they are a family that cares about their children. It's just a very different, it's one of those set on expectations kind of things. It's, it's conditional, it's conditional to a degree.

And there is some of that vicarious living. And again, that's, that's something parents have learned to check at the door. I've had to check it at the door.

I don't think any parent out there hasn't had to look at their own experience that they then tried to, well, I want to write this wrong, or I want to change this thing, or I want to have this opportunity. It's not about you anymore. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I know we've gone way over our normal hour, um, just because, well, I really love my children and I love being a parent, so I can actually talk about being a parent for, you know, a long, long time. Um, but we did want to put something out there on at least the basics of, you know, sort of dispel some of these myths when it comes to satanic parenting and, you know, just the bullshit that you hear out there and maybe also help people that are young. Like when we first had children and are unsure or scared or, and you know, what are we going to do now?

How is society going to treat us? And at the end of the day, I think what we figured out was you are who you are. If you pretend to be somebody you're not, it doesn't really work out very well.

And people will either accept you or they won't.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Society is going to be what it is. And it's going to judge people that are different regardless of what an awesome person you might be because too many people just don't look past the surface and you can't change that.

What you can do is honor yourself. You could be a good example to your kids by showing self-love, self-respect and teaching them that it's okay to be yourself. Yeah.

Yep.

[Tommy Lavin]
So with that, we won't bore you anymore with stories about our children. But again, I thought it was a really important episode because I do think there is a huge lack of material when it comes to satanic parenting, you know, and everybody's got a different style. So what we say is in written and stuff, maybe it doesn't work for you or whatnot.

You got to find your own way. But just know there are some definite do's and don'ts that are best practices, I guess I would say.

[Lilin Lavin]
I guess folks listening out there, if you've got insight into your parenting journey or your experiences that you want to share with us after listening to this episode, please feel free to do that. I'd love to hear your personal stories as a parent, as a Satanist, what that's been like for you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep, absolutely. So with that, I'll say good day, good night, good morning, wherever the hell you're at. And hail Satan.

Hail Satan.