Ep.26: In the Shadow of the Steeple - The Secular Struggle for America's Heart

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.26: In the Shadow of the Steeple - The Secular Struggle for America's Heart

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Well, this week, we were originally going to do a really nice sort of, you know, topic on satanic parenting, and then Iowa happened. And so we felt like, you know, seeing as we're in the midst of a group of people that think it is okay to destroy private property that is religious-based based only on the fact that they disagree with the religion, we should probably do a podcast on this since it's, you know, a pretty fucking hot topic right now.

[Lilin Lavin]
It is, and I don't think it's going to stop being one just because of the environment that we find ourselves. I do feel like there's a ramp up in extremism in many regards. I think one of the important things to start out with is what is religion?

The thing that we keep hearing is we're not a legitimate religion. We don't have the right to exist in these spaces because we're only there as a direct conflict of Christianity or Catholicism. We're only there as trolls.

We're only there to spread hate, and we're not doing this for any reason other than to attack Christianity. Well, that's just, it couldn't be farther from the truth, and if byproduct of what we do is challenging your beliefs, that's exactly part of who we are. Religion is complex.

It's a complex concept that refers to a set of beliefs, practices, and rituals related to sacrifice or divine or moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. This is a very big, broad way to discuss what religion is, but TST is, in fact, the Satanic Temple is a religion. It's a recognized religion, and it fulfills many of the key aspects commonly associated with religion.

We have a set of beliefs, a deeply held, deeply reverent set of beliefs. We do have rituals and symbolism, symbolism such as the Baphomet statue that was just destroyed. We do have a community.

We do have an organization. We do have philosophical and moral viewpoints. You can look at our seven tenets.

We routinely discuss these things. They're open. They're alive.

They're something that we don't have a concrete set of anything around, but they do exist as a guidepost for us. These are the important things, and we are legally recognized. You could argue about what particular person was in the White House at the time.

It has nothing to do with that individual. The IRS and all these other organizations are there and exist to perform the same function for every single religion, regardless, as long as they meet the criteria, which we do. Yep.

We checked all the boxes. Starting just with that, that was something that was important to me.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I think it's shameful, scary. I mean, I could just go down the list of stuff to think that a person who is running for office at that- He did run for office.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think he failed at it, and this was- Some contemplate that this was a way for him to generate popularity.

[Tommy Lavin]
Probably. Okay. So he did run.

He still has the Twitter up for his- By him.

[Lilin Lavin]
We're talking about Michael Cassidy, who we now know is a person who destroyed the Baphomet display at the Iowa Capitol. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So if he did run and fail and wasn't planning on running again, he probably wouldn't have kept his Twitter up. So I think this was a political stunt, but he got it.

So he doesn't live in Iowa. So this isn't like it was right up the road. Oh my gosh, I just happened to be visiting this, and then I was so overcome by anger and I did this.

No, he premeditated this. He got in his car. He drove across state lines- Purely with the intent to- Go there and destroy this.

And then on top of that, now remember this person tried to run for office and I would be willing to put money down that they're going to try again, said that the laws that we have in this nation do not pertain to him because he has God's law on his side. Now, if you have not at that point, I mean, if you can't see that that has entered into radicalization, extremism, whatever you want to call it, that is what every other radical Christian or not Christian, every other radical religion, radical terrorist organizations, things like that, depending on where you want to go with that, but that's the same shit they say. The laws don't pertain to us because we have God's law.

And then that allows them to do anything they want.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and if that's not concerning, I honestly have to question where it is that you're coming from in this, because even amongst Christians, there's huge debate over who's the correct Christian. You have, you know, Methodists that are separating from different groups because of their way of understanding how the LGBTQ community fits within their church. You see the same thing with Lutherans.

You see a strife between different evangelical branches. You see issues just with those groups. I've seen at TST events, when we do Satan Cons, where individual groups that attended to stand against the satanic temple end up fighting amongst each other.

[Tommy Lavin]
Isn't it like the Catholics and the Protestants or something got into a fight, a physical altercation outside.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's like, you know, It's just sad because this is really, if you don't think that it's going to continue, should we, for some reason, end up not around anymore? Should the satanic temple be removed? Should minority religions be removed?

Don't, for one moment, kid yourself to think that it won't be Catholics and other Christian organizations going after one another. And a perfect illustration of this is someone who I don't find as a credible, much of anything, Jenna Ellis. I was just about to go there.

She's recently put out a series of misinformed polls, and I'll let you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, the first one was misinformed because she put it out saying, it was about Muslims and a statue of Allah. And obviously she doesn't understand the Muslim religion because Muslims wouldn't put up a statue of Allah because it's against the religion, that part. But I understand where she was going with it.

So replace Allah with the Quran or some religious display by Muslims, you know, and would it be okay if a Christian destroyed this? And with 40,000 votes so far, I mean, it's still running. 70% said yes.

Which is bizarre, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Because let's just say it was Allah. Allah is just simply God.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And if you're of the Abrahamic faith, you would be fine to destroy a depiction of God because it's not your correct interpretation. That's what I mean.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, and then she commented on that saying, hey guys, because I think she realized, you know, after a bunch of people commented that she worded that wrong. And so she tried to sort of fix it a bit, but that didn't turn out right.

So then she went a different way. So she said- Didn't get better. Yeah.

It didn't really get better. I have to find it on here. It was about Mormonism.

She's got so much crap on her things. It was basically saying, would you be okay if a Christian destroyed a Mormon temple in Iowa? So we went from display to temple.

This is just destroying the temple.

[Lilin Lavin]
I was taking down an entire freaking building. Okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And this was a newer poll because, you know, her last one was running for a day and she kind of screwed up the language on that one. So she put this one out today as we're speaking, which is the 17th, you know, and 40% of the people were off the bat.

I mean, right off the bat, 40% said yes, they would be okay with that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Which is alarming. It's alarming. Now this is not in any way a scientific poll.

I know the majority of Twitter or most of social media now is just a collection of bots, many from all over the place. I don't count this as strong validity, but it does show there is a hateful undercurrent of extremists that would be fine with defacing any religious property they deem to be contrary to what they think should exist.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, you know, that kind of shows that, okay, you can hate the fuck out of us. You can hate us because we're Satanists.

I don't really give a shit. But at the same point, you should realize what these extremists and these extremists have gotten into government. They they've gotten everywhere from school boards to the Supreme court.

They are, have injected themselves into our government. And this is what they believe. It is okay to destroy other religions there, be it their temples, their displays, anything like that, if it doesn't fall under their belief system.

So if you hate Satanist and you hate Satanism, okay, great. Good for you. But realize that as she so eloquently displayed with her polls, that doesn't matter.

Get fine. We're removed from the situation. You're next.

And it doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Hindu, Mormon, Mormons still believe in Jesus. Sure. That's a different verb, but they still believe in Jesus.

So at the end of the day, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Here's the thing, right? Let's just take Cassidy as an example. He went over there.

He did this. He said that he, his conscience is held captive to the word of God, not to bureaucratic decree. And so he felt compelled to act.

He, mind you, was a pilot and part of the military. And the military, much like many government positions, has an oath. And that oath says, I do solemnly swear or affirm that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I will obey orders of the president of the United States.

And it goes on, but you hear that constitution. And domestic. And domestic.

He acted, however you might want to dress it up, as a domestic terrorist. He was committing an act of stochastic terrorism on a specific group that he deemed unworthy to share the public space with. In the same venue at the Capitol, they have nativity scenes.

There are other things. This is a rotating display of pluralistic beliefs, because December is not limited to just Christianity. As much as they may like to push that narrative, it's not true.

Our country wasn't formed as a Christian nation. If that were the case, the very first, number one, the first thing you read would not go deeply into the fact that we are not to have any specific religious beliefs pushed by the government, supported by the government. Their job is to allow individuals to have their faith or no faith at all.

And for that to be without repercussion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the problem is, is as, as people become radicalized and brainwashed, and you see this in other religions too, you know, any religion that says we're right, everybody else is wrong. And if you don't believe what we believe, you're going to a bad place.

And we need to save as many people as we can. Any religion that has that sort of an ideology can easily become radicalized and it happens. And, and then you look at that and you listen, you see what happened again, there was a nativity scene by this, the Satanists didn't go over and kick the nativity scene or destroy it or anything like that, because we believe in pluralism, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it's not to say we weren't outraged because we, we are, we were. There are many of us just expressing our extreme anger and frustration at the situation between one another, because as mature adults, we talked about our feelings instead of showing up and just defacing and destroying other people's things. But we were very deeply aggravated.

I encourage people and I will continue to encourage people safely, because we do live in a very unpredictable environment to put up your own display in defiance of this action. They can continue to tear down things that we put up. I mean, be careful with what you spend and where you put things and your own home environment.

But, you know, understand that we have the same right to exist as everyone else, whether it be a religious display, a personal display or whatever. I mean, I live in a neighborhood where buses and trailers and all manner of things come by. And we put out a Happy Sol Invictus sign.

It's quite large, they're 24-inch letters, we have lights. And it was in a, in a way, because we believe we should share this, the space, you know, and another, it's, it's lower key, right? I could have put a giant Hail Satan in the yard.

I'm trying to be inclusive and still considerate of those around me. There's a nativity scene across the street. There are several crosses.

There are several light displays that talk about Jesus being the reason and all of those. There's a 50-foot Jesus, like spelled out word Jesus.

[Tommy Lavin]
This dude has this 50-foot Jesus in front of his house with lights on it and Christian music blaring. So again, sure, you know, celebrate your holiday, but it's not just your holiday. Other religions have holidays in December, mainly because Christmas was stolen.

I mean, but we already kind of went down that path, so we won't go into that. But yes, other people, and it's really sad because some of our, there's another house on our street that they are Jewish.

[Lilin Lavin]
And this is, yeah, every year they put out a beautiful light display with some really cool figures. It's a blue and white lights and they've got usually, yep. And there's all like a little dreidel.

And this is the first year since we've lived here and we have lived here many years, definitely more than five. And this is the first year they didn't put out their dreidel or the happy Hanukkah. And why do you think that is?

I can't tell you how many times while speaking out about the incident with the satanic temples display from the Iowa congregation, I have been derogatorily, and I'm, pardon me for saying this, been called a Jew. I don't take offense to being called a Jew because I have no problem with the Jewish people. I take offense to the way that they're applying it because they're using it in a way to be demeaning and as a slur.

I have a problem with bigots. So I mean, if that makes you feel better to call me that, I guess, okay. It's kind of like when they call me a man because I have an opinion and I must not actually, in their mind, be a biological woman because they feel threatened and small.

So they have to find a way to make that okay. I don't care if you want to pretend I'm a trans woman because they put a lot of damn effort into who they are every day. And they're proud.

And I have no offense taken by you trying to demean me with that because I'm proud of that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, but that's, that's the problem is there's Christianity, which in of itself, I can respect and I can, I can easily coexist with.

[Lilin Lavin]
Provided they live by their faith and they're not trying to make others live by their faith. They have every right to live and make decisions by their faith. Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, and I have no problems. And I'll hell, I'll even sit down and have a theocratic conversation with the Christian. You know, we can go into Bible says this and Bible says that and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, no problem. It's when any religion starts to push their, their beliefs as laws and say that we, you know, basically fuck the constitution. Let me, let's throw that out the window.

Cause I've heard that. I don't know how many other jobs, you know, the constitution doesn't matter. We should rip the constitution up.

They, these lawmakers should be ashamed of themselves. This isn't what the founders meant. They meant, let's see some of the other stuff ever.

When they said freedom of a religion, they meant Christian denominations. No, it's gotten bad enough.

[Lilin Lavin]
I've actually seen people going past the founders at this point, which this is just bizarre to me, right? To folks that came to settle the Puritans who came here and looking at the doctrine they had when they settled here, where they were going to develop these extreme religious colonies. And look, folks, you can believe whatever it is you want to believe about history, all that stuff.

You know, if you want to live in that bubble, you live in that bubble, but that bubble begins and ends within your space. You don't have the right to push these insane, I'm sorry to say insane views on other people and expect them to live according to it. It's not true.

And like I said, the, the constitution that we have today was fought for and paid for. I don't agree with the people that necessarily existed at the time or everything that they said did, but we do live by this document. And this document isn't about Christianity.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no. I mean, the first, again, you know, you look at when you make out a list of something, you know, what's the most important thing. Generally, it's the first thing you put on that list.

The first thing in the constitution is the freedom of religion. You know, the government and religion, you know, separation of state and church is supposed to be key to America.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Well, and it's just upsetting. I had one person say, well, it doesn't matter.

The constitution says states have their own language. And you know, our preamble in Iowa where this happened, it thanks a supreme being. So that, that justifies us defending our religion.

No, it does not. No, it does not. The preamble of the Iowa constitution does, it does express thanks to a supreme being, which does not necessarily mean God.

You can take that to mean whatever you choose to take it to mean. It doesn't overrule the principles of religious freedom and equality in our constitution, destroying a display just because it's seen as blasphemous, just because it goes against some people's perceived values. It's a free and open society.

We have religious diversity here.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I tried to have a conversation with a person because they were trying to, you know, they were coming across as an apologist for, you know, the asshole that did this. They were trying to say, well, you know, you have to understand how Christians feel about Satan.

And you had to know this was going to happen. Why do we have to understand the way they feel about it? Right.

And I was like, okay, so by your thinking, by, by your train of thought, the logic that you're using here, then that would mean if there was a, if there was a Jewish and a Muslim display in there, one of them could destroy the other one because of the hate between. And they were like, well, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that that's not because it's your internal soul.

And so I was like, okay, so if I made up a pretend monster that I believe that Christianity is going to harm me in this pretend monster is going to do something to my soul, then I can destroy a Christian. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't do that.

Well, no, these are these, this is the same, you know, you're kind of in this logic circle. Well, e-logic circle, because they're not using logic.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's just, no, it's circular logic. It is circular logic. And it did.

They've already presupposed what it is that they're arguing. They have the answer and they just try to fit everything into question format to, to come to that same conclusion. They've already concluded it.

So, you know, it's just almost pointless to a degree to have these discussions, but it's important because there are younger people that utilize social media and they don't necessarily always understand it. And seeing the different perspectives is healthy and important. So when I'm out there doing this, it's in part because other people have a right to see a diverse set of views.

They get to decide whether or not they align with one versus the other, but at least let the conversation be there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And you know, I, as, as I've kind of gotten through this, there are certain statements that people make that I'm labeling as either hate speech or domestic terrorism, you know, Kent Christmas, his sermon about how Christians should take a, should, should take, you know, a note from the, the Muslim terrorist and suicide, you know, that's, that's terrorism. If you're spreading that message, if you believe that you should end people's lives because, because they think differently or believe differently or have a different religion than you, you have crossed over that line.

[Lilin Lavin]
When you're venerating acts of terrorism and saying, if we have real faith, we would also do these things is just horrific. It is an atrocious, again, we're, we're in the realm of terrorism. This isn't religion.

This is just hate speech. You're, you're a hate group hiding behind the shield of religion at that point.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I really wish that I do believe, I do actually fundamentally believe there is a difference between Christians and Christian nationalists. There's definitely a difference. And you know, the people that are spreading this hate, I really wish more Christians would speak up and say, Hey, this is not the 12 minutes of the 12 minutes speech that Jesus gave.

You know, this is not what he said. This is not what we're supposed to be doing. And too many of them are silent.

And I don't know why they're silent. I don't know if they think like, well, yeah, you know, we don't agree with this, but you know, maybe it's the ends justifies the means. And yeah, you know, then we could have a Christian nation and it would be great.

No, it won't. It won't. If America was to turn into a theocracy, you, nobody is, is safe unless you are a radical extremist.

They will then even then they'll eat their own. Yeah. They eat their own, you know, and, and look at other countries where this has happened.

The people leaving are of the same faith of the theocracy many times. Well, if it's such a wonderful thing, why are they leaving? They're leaving to escape the violence.

They're leaving to escape the extremism. And it doesn't take far on social media to get into that. And to really see, I mean, they're telling you what they want to do.

They published project 2025. They published a document on what their goals are.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that's just the heritage foundation, which is a very large organization, not to dismiss them at all. But that's one of many different groups out there with messaging right now. You look at individuals like Marjorie, I won't mention the rest of her name, because we all know who I'm talking about.

They are out there routinely just hammering this point about Christian nationalism, and they have gone so far as to say they are a proud Christian nationalist. And that is what Christian nationalism is, that's what they espouse. You look at the other individuals in the extreme conservative party at this point, and it's the same sort of thing.

And it doesn't matter what ideology you're picking, it doesn't matter what party you're picking, it doesn't matter. Look at where it's going. That's the concern.

What is the room for everyone else in this country, we are a secular nation, we are a nation of many different pluralistic views. That is what makes our nation so successful. That is what gives us the advantage we have, because we have so many different people representing us.

And if you take that away, then what are we?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and I mean, this is kind of why we did that podcast a little while ago about the satanic bickering, and how I thought it was bullshit. Well, this is kind of the reason why, you know, yeah, I get it, we've got differences, we, we, you know, have some fundamental differences in what we believe, or how we believe, or, you know, how we, how we, you know, show our belief. At the end of the day, none of that matters when you've got shit like this going on.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, and I would, I would, you know, maybe this isn't the place for it, but maybe it is. And I would challenge anyone that does have issue with the way things are done, then get out and do something. You know, as someone that is involved with a congregation, be it just a member, you have the opportunity to speak with your congregation leaders to help enact whatever it is that you want, be it reasonable, be it tangible, be it something that makes sense within what we, what we believe and how we express those beliefs, then you should be able to get support to do that work.

And as a congregation leader, you have the same ability as anyone else to express what it is you want to see in your community by putting that into action. We all have that same capability.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I think Lucian did a really good job when he came out. And one of the first statements he said was that as members of the satanic temple, nobody should go out there and deface or, or, you know, go out and try and seek revenge that way. I, I was happy that he put that out there immediately because I know that's sort of a gut check reaction, you know, that sometimes people have while they destroyed our stuff, we'll destroy theirs.

Nothing good comes out of that. If you want revenge, if you feel like you need something, put another display up. That's how you take that back.

You just put another display up. They destroy one, put two up. They destroyed two, put four up.

You know, that shows that no, we're not going to back down and we're doing it in a nonviolent way. We should make sure that we are always on the right side of this thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
And just remember all the folks out there who think that it's a funny thing, or it's appropriate to, to just go out there and deface things and be horrible human beings. I've often heard from the same group of people, you know, we treat others as we want to be treated. Think very carefully about the way you're acting.

Is this the way you want to be treated? Do you feel like the actions you're taking on others is a fair representation of how you would like them to in turn treat you? Because that's what you're teaching people with your actions.

And one of the reasons why we, why we walk this line, we work so hard is because we know that we're under this extra extreme scrutiny for every single thing that we do. And we care deeply about the way that our congregations, our community members, Satanists in general are seen because we're under a much broader spotlight. And, you know, we care about our actions.

We actually care about the constitution. We really do believe in pluralistic society if it was to change. And I've said this many times, and Christianity was in a situation where they couldn't express themselves in a way that we had the right to, we would fight for them to have that same right.

And you see it with other organizations that feel this way, like the ACLU. I don't always like the people that they stand up for, but if they have a right to be in the public sphere, and if they're being deprived of that right, then they come out and they defend them because that is their function. As people that believe in pluralistic society, it's not just lip service.

If there was a situation where someone else has the right, and we've done it before, I believe it was during the last SatanCon where there was an issue and people were being denied the right to express themselves publicly, they were Christians, that, you know, TST said, absolutely not, they have the right to their voice too. You let them have their say, let them have their voice, because if we get to be in the public sphere, so do they. And that's who we are.

That's who we should always be. And, you know, people ask, and I get these questions, again, are we a real religion? Why did we choose Satan?

We are a definite real religion. We chose Satan as a symbol. It isn't about limiting ourselves to a specific thing, or tying ourselves to something that you guys see as an anchor, or your evil deific figure just to crap in your face.

It's because we embrace the powerful metaphor that resonates with our values. In the Romantic Satanic Era, the Romantic Satanism that's out in literature, Byron, Shelley, Anatole France, there's so many different literary depictions of this figure, and they stood for something that we felt we wanted to embody as individuals in our religious expression. And some of that is exactly what you're seeing here with this issue in the Capitol.

Part of it is to stand up to arbitrary authority, them coming and attacking our display was them showing that they don't believe in these things that they claim to believe in. And it challenges the notions of how they represent themselves, that standing up to it. And it wasn't a gotcha.

It wasn't a trap. It was us actually, you know, putting out an artistic interpretation of our beliefs, they chose to take it as something personal. And they chose to bastardize our symbology to put their own assigned symbology on it, and then to attack it.

Really, it's them attacking their own fears.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, because if you're, if you're, if you are so strong in your belief, in your faith, and your God is so powerful, what does it matter? You know, why?

Why would this matter to you? But this showed, you know, it, I mean, it got into their, their, their brains. And again, they, they're firmly, and when I say they, I am referring to the more extreme, the more extreme factions that do classify themselves as Christian nationalists, you know, so no, not every Christian, I'm not stamping a, this is every Christian across this.

What I am saying is the Christian nationalist movement, which has, yes, it's been around for a while, because I've had some people say, well, this isn't something new. You're right. It isn't something new, but it has picked up pace.

It has, it has gotten political apologies. So, so they're getting political permission.

[Lilin Lavin]
Just look at the fact that Ron DeSantis, who's running for president, right? He is a presidential candidate, out, came out and said they would defund this individual financially and publicly. They're going to, they have a GoFundMe.

They're getting money from the action that they committed, from the defacing of our, from the hate crime, right? They're getting fundraising from this. And guess where they learned that, but we're not going there.

But, you know, when you look at Ron DeSantis, who's running as a political candidate for the presidency, this is him drawing a very, very, very large distinction and clearly stating that they align with this Christian extremist type mentality and that they're okay to stand by destruction of other people's religious rights.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Religious rights, their property, private property. I mean, you know, it is TST's, Iowa's property.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was, and they put time and effort into creating it. You can make fun of it if you want to, because it's not what you deem to be, you know, the kind of display, but you have to understand people work with what they have and they build something beautiful. And it was beautiful.

It meant something. It was a symbol of their beliefs and their interpretation of their expression of Satanism. They shared it with the public.

They trusted the community to respect that display.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, they trusted the community. They trusted the government building and the security guards there. I mean, I don't, you know, since I wasn't there, I don't know how this went.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right, but they have security in the building.

[Tommy Lavin]
But security's in the building. So I'm not sure it was security just kind of sitting back watching. I don't know.

Maybe they were on a coffee break.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm not going to pretend I know the situation, but what I do know is this shouldn't have been able to happen. And trust was placed in the public by that congregation to share with them something they felt strongly about.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And to me, the worst part of this whole thing wasn't the destruction of it. And look, I get it.

Some psycho destroys something. It's all the support that this person is getting. It's all the, you put it back up.

We're going to destroy it again. It's all the fundraising.

[Lilin Lavin]
And before it happened, though, there were calls for it to happen. Before it happened, people were saying the only correct response because, you know, and I did apologize. There was a particular politician that came out and said this has a right to exist.

They did follow all the laws. They did do all the things they were supposed to do. And, you know, when I was looking at what happened and I started to respond to the defacement that happened, you know, I was trying to say all the people that had come out and very clearly stated that they were against it and it wasn't fair.

And, you know, I called out a few individuals that had intentionally called for harm and had said not only should this happen, but people that support this should be in prison and go to jail. And, you know, it was it was I'm not going to name those specific people because I don't want to give them additional platform. But quite a few people came out and said, you know, that it was something that should have happened.

You know, Kim Reynolds did state that, you know, her belief was that you stand up and you speak out against it. And that's fine. That is your right.

Other individuals, they said a lot of very take a baseball bat to it.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, they had a prayer vigil in the Capitol right next to it because it was there. That's fine. TST didn't say you didn't try and stop that because it's their right to do what's not their right is to take it and destroy it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. What I what I had said, because when it happened, I had seen what people were pointing to and they were calling out John Dunwell. And I had accidentally mentioned John Dunwell when I was labeling people and tagging people that had been involved in this.

But John Dunwell, he did the right thing. He he was actually in his statement. He said, I'm shocked you're willing to give up your freedom of religious expression to the government.

I'm shocked you don't believe in freedom of speech. The display offends me as a Christian, but I find your sacrifice of freedom for government control astounding. So he did clearly say he didn't agree with the display.

He didn't think that it was something he would like to see. However, because he holds everything that we have, the freedoms we have of value, that that religious expression that he holds dear, he's not going to take it away from other people. He recognized that.

So when I did say there were people that called it out, and there are a lot of people that said some really ugly things, he was in fact not one of them. He expressed a dislike for something and he was offended, but he worked with that offense.

[Tommy Lavin]
Exactly, you know, and, and, again, I can respect that, because there's things that I look at and I don't like, you know, I mean, the cross is a torture symbol. You know, I mean, I don't necessarily I don't like it or take comfort in it or anything like that. And, you know, some of the displays, you look at the nativity scenes, you know, you've got a man with a child brought, I mean, there's so many things about this that I could go into and that are offensive.

But that's their symbol.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's their symbol. They've chosen it to represent what matters to them.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I don't run up and destroy them, you know, because I feel like I have a right or, you know, and again, since we don't believe in the supernatural, I don't have voices in my head telling me that I should do this, that this is God's law. I think this is more of a, hey, maybe this person should be checked out for, you know, to make sure that their mental health is OK. But, you know, again, regardless of that, the support that they were getting is what really, really bothers me.

The amount of hate. Oh, my gosh. And vitriol, yeah.

Messages that I've gotten, I can't even count how many times I've been called a Jew. Again, I mean, even while we were doing this podcast, I got another one, you're a Jew. And I'm like, and, you know, is this supposed to bother me?

What bothers me is them being anti-Semite. Exactly. You know, that's the part that bothers me is it's like, OK, you're showing everybody you're a bigot.

You're showing everybody you're discriminating against, you know, a religion, which I'm not sure where or how this came about, but it's it is another pattern I've seen lately. And, you know, just the fact that government officials are now helping to fund this person hate crime. Candidates for presidency.

Yeah, I mean, they're helping to fund a hate crime. There's there's no other way to put that. He did this because he hated Satanism.

He hated the fact that we were allowed to have a display in a government building that was showing other religious displays. And he did not feel like we had the right. He did not feel like our religion had the right to be in there.

So take Satanism out of it, remove Satanism, add any other religion or add any other type of person or anything like that to the situation. This would be labeled a hate crime. It would be all over the news.

If a Satanist went into. Can you imagine if a Satanist would have gone into the Iowa Capitol building and destroyed? Well, for one, I'd be pissed.

I'd be pissed. But but can you imagine it would be running on every news station? We would be getting so much hate, rightfully so, you know, and you wouldn't see a bunch of Satanists standing up saying, you know what, what they did was right, because Christians are wrong.

[Lilin Lavin]
I for one would have been like, thanks, jerk, because now this is exactly how people are going to see us. And I have to be very honest. I've seen some people that state that they're Satanists do stupid things that I find objectionable.

And I will, if it's somebody I know, say, what the hell are you doing? This is exactly the kind of bullcrap, whether you think it's humorous, because people do things as a joke. We get told so many stupid things on such a routine basis that sometimes the only thing you can do is make light of it.

And sometimes in that process, you say something incredibly stupid, or you do something incredibly stupid. And I mean, I've made jokes that I look back on and I cringe, but there's people that go way further than that. And they say things or do things that are in line with the kind of stereotypical crap that you are hearing is associated with Satanism.

And then you're like, what the hell are you thinking? Do you not realize that this is exactly what people want you to do? Whether or not you found it funny, or you were trying to do it as a joke that make us look like crap in public.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, Satanism is more than just TST. I'm not going to speak to the other branches.

[Lilin Lavin]
Because it's not my place to say.

[Tommy Lavin]
But there's still a rightful religion. I mean, so Satanism in of itself, whether it's TST, Satanism, or COS or whoever, it's still a religion. They still have the rights to exist.

They have the right. If they wanted to put a display up, they wouldn't. But if they wanted to, they could.

And legally, they would be protected or are supposed to be protected. You can't just pick and choose what religion you allow because you like it or you don't like it. Granted, if there was a religion doing harm to people, you know, and like some of this shit that they say that we do as Satanists, which is all lies.

It's all been debunked. No, we don't kill cats. No, we don't sacrifice animals.

No, we don't kill babies. No, we don't do any of this sort of shit. Just read even the most basic founding documents.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I don't care if it's Luciferianism. I've known plenty of folks that are involved with that, read through a lot of that documentation, does not agree with that. COS, read through a lot of their documentation, look at their founding beliefs.

They do not agree with that. TST, same thing, foundational beliefs, not allowed. And if there is a group out there that is doing things like this, they are not Satanist.

I don't care what they want to say. You're defying the things that make us who we are. If you're taking will away from something, if you're demanding that you have the right to just sidestep autonomy and to just treat people in a way that's unbecoming of everything that we've held dear, you're exactly what Christians are saying.

You're the opposite of them.

[Tommy Lavin]
And well, that's what I normally find. I mean, because you'll get them, they'll throw these cases to you. You know, this is somebody through some sort of a sheep killing thing in a satanic way, you know, that the police were.

And I was like, I will bet you money when they find this individual, they were probably raised in the church. They know nothing, absolutely nothing about Satanism or they watch some crazy movie, right? Other than what the church and Hollywood has told them.

And they were trying, they're probably mentally disturbed and they were trying to do something to separate themselves from the church or they were going through, you know, I'm not condoning this, but they were going through a type of deconstruction.

[Lilin Lavin]
They felt like they've been abused. They feel like they don't have a community. They feel isolated.

And so they went the opposite of everything to kind of throw it in their face. And I'm not agreeing that that's the way to get help or to get recognition, but you have to understand people that are treated in ways. And some of these religions are incredibly abusive.

They're trying to work through being abused and they don't know where to go with it or who to turn to because their entire support system is in that belief system.

[Tommy Lavin]
And then their whole life, they've been told, this is what Satanists do. This is what Satanists do. This is what Satanists do.

They watch movies. This is what Satanists do. And so they think, oh, okay, well, I want to become the opposite of what I am because I want to escape.

So I'm going to do what the Satanists do. But they never cracked a book. They never opened a fucking web page and read through the basics that would say, no, this isn't what you're just prolificating the shit that you're trying to escape.

[Lilin Lavin]
Satanists, the biggest risk animals have when it comes to Satanists is that we'll find them on the street and we're going to adopt them and we're going to get them fixed and get them vaccinated and find them homes or keep them. I mean, this is the biggest risk that we run, the bigger risk, because my poor husband knows if we go out into the world and I find some poor stray creature, I'm going to try to capture it, especially what's near a street or someplace dangerous. I'm going to try to locate its home.

And if I can't do that, I'm going to try to find a home for it or bring it someplace that will be safe. And we have quite a menagerie here to attest. So we are people that believe in trying to make the world better than we found it.

And maybe we don't accomplish everything, but we'll do as much as we can in our small part of it to change things in the best way we can.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. And so fundamentally, Satanists just flat out do not agree with, do not allow the harm of children. Children can't consent, one.

So that goes against bodily autonomy. That's done.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that goes to everything. You can't spank them. They're abusing them, taking away their clothing, things.

I mean, come on, folks. I've heard horrible things that parents employ as ways to punish children. And they're just objectionable, in my opinion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So whether it's TST, you know, saying bodily autonomy and you can't do that and, you know, minors can't consent to whatever. And this just isn't right.

TST is the 11 rules of the earth or COS, where it says do not harm children. I'm pretty flat out, pretty blatant there. There's no real way to misinterpret do not harm children, you know, and then below that, do not harm animals, you know, unless you're going to eat them.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's, you know, obviously, you know, it's compassion, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
You don't torture them or anything like that. But you eat a ham, if you're, you know, if you're an omnivore, and you're eating a hamburger, some animal was harmed because of that. But what they're saying is you don't go out and do these stupid things that people say there are no sacrifices of any of anything like that.

And yet, that's the same shit that they just keep proliferating. This is a reason why we shouldn't be a religion. Well, no, because those are all lies.

So, you know, I can make up a bunch of lies about any religion and say, well, this is the reason why they shouldn't be a religion. But that's not factual information. You have to work off of facts.

[Lilin Lavin]
We are religion. We have deeply held religious beliefs and sacred rites we do on baptisms, which are deeply personal, those are private or public rituals, we do gender affirmation rituals, which recognize individuals, regardless of how they may align with their gender, we recognize that gender choice, and we support that and let them know that they're loved for who they are, that they can be who they believe themselves to be. And they get to tell society who they are, not the other way around. So, you know, there's so many things out there, and so many religions tell you, you can only be these things, you can only exist this way, the only way we're going to love you, the only way that your deific figure is going to love you is if you exist like this.

That is not who we are. We believe individuals tell us who they are, and we support them on that journey.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so the argument of we're not a religion, that's just out the window, nowhere in the First Amendment does it say that we have to believe in the supernatural to be a religion, you know, so just throw that throw that garbage argument away. We're a religion, like it or not, you can stomp your feet, you can cry, you can have a temper tantrum, you can do whatever you want.

It's not going to change the fact that we're a religion, it's not going to change that we have the same rights, or that we're supposed to have the same rights as you. And it's not going to change the fact that we exist. You can like it, not like it, you can accept it, not accept it, those are your feelings.

But you don't get to take those feelings and then turn those feelings into violent actions, or hateful actions. That's where it crosses that line. That's where it becomes wrong.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's, I don't know, that's really where I wanted to go with all of it. The whole thing has been infuriating.

Speaking out against what happened and being upset rightfully about someone defacing a beautiful display that we had a right to share in a public space should have been something that people could be compassionate about, could share empathy about, and could understand why it would be hurtful. Instead, I've seen a lot of people from that particular belief system stand up for the person who did something awful.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, the person who did the hate crime. You know, so if you want to actually donate, if you want to help, I know Iowa is running a campaign, a donation campaign, to help rebuild this display. Whether it'll happen in enough time to, you know, put another one up this year, I don't know.

Maybe next year is going to be even better, more banging and, you know, just even more grand. You know, that's what I think we should do. The way that we should fight back on this is to just not be afraid to be who we are and to put our own displays out there to celebrate our religious rights.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. Yeah. And I know that Iowa, like I said, I'm proud of them for everything they've put up with and for everything they've done.

They do have ways that you can find them. I know they've got a Facebook page, so they have an official Satanic Temple Iowa page. They talk about this situation, and they did put out a statement.

They said that they were thrilled to be part of Iowa State Capitol's holiday display for the first time this year. Despite experiencing the destruction and beheading of our display on December 14th, our congregation united to rebuild, embodying the resilience and spirit of our community. As our time at the Capitol concludes, we carry with us a sense of accomplishment and a renewed commitment to advocating for religious pluralism and freedom of speech.

Now, if that doesn't tell you exactly who they are and who we are and what we stand for, I don't know what else will. Because instead of taking that low road and being hurt, like many of them I'm sure were, and taking that anger out on anybody, they said this just made their belief stronger that we have to fight for everyone to be included in these kind of events. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And again, I kind of go back to these polls that have been put out. They're telling you what they're going to do or what they want to do. If it does not fall in line with their view of Christianity, they are okay to destroy it.

They are okay to deface it. And it's not just Satanism, y'all. I mean, I know the word Satanism sometimes make people cringe, you know, but remove Satanism and enter in anything else that is not radical Christianity.

And guess what? They're okay to do the same exact damn thing to you, your religion, your property, anything like that. And that's just wrong.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I just, it's been a frustrating period. It's been disheartening to see the way that people have treated us when we've been rightfully hurt and harmed in this process, and just seeing the negative stuff.

But I've also seen a lot of positive things from our community and from others, from other Christians and from other people who have deeply held values with the Constitution that we align with. And they've told us that they, too, agree that religious spaces are included for everyone. And so they want to have the right for themselves.

And I can admire that even if they don't like or agree with us, they at least stand with us in that solidarity of those rights.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I can't tell you how many people I've seen that have stood up and said, look, I'm not a Satanist. Maybe I don't like their symbology, but they have the right.

They have the right to be there. What this individual did was wrong. And amazingly, I mean, I know this is going to shock everybody, but amazingly, the response to that is some Christian nationalists coming back and saying, oh, you're a Satanist.

And they're like, no, no, I'm actually not. I was a member of the military or enter something like that. Or I just really believe very strongly in the First Amendment.

And then they just go into name calling. I mean, it's like, I don't know if they're still in kindergarten or what. They go into Jew, Satanist, and that's basically where their mind is.

So the kind of people ask why Satan, why this? Well, this is a really good example, because the people that are not Satanist, but the people that agree with the First Amendment that we had the right are labeled Satanist.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I was just reading through because you had mentioned they are looking to have the donations will go towards next year's display. The individual who created it was named Mortimer Audremilch. I might have messed that up.

Mortimer, I'm sorry. Audremilch.

[Tommy Lavin]
Satanims always fuck me up. I screw up everybody.

[Lilin Lavin]
Mortimer put a lot of time and effort into this and the money that they raise will go towards constructing a new display next year. But he put out a really good thing. I'm going to not assume.

They put out a really good statement. The freedom of religion is granted to all Americans under the First Amendment, including Satanist. Our state motto is liberties we prize and our rights we'll maintain.

And that means a lot to me. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, think about what we're building as a nation. You know, think about the world at large. Think about the things you've heard that you've seen that we face as a society in many different ways and the hatefulness that we all run into from time to time.

What is it that you want to change about those interactions and how can we move forward from this place where we find ourselves entirely too much, entirely too often at this point in history? What do we do to correct it before it becomes like so many past points in history where nobody did anything? Darrell Bock Nobody did anything.

Audremilch Or a few people did. Darrell Bock Yeah. Audremilch And people didn't stand beside them and the voice didn't come together on that side.

Instead, they went with the things that were being hateful and hurtful and causing the rift to grow wider.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. I mean, you can go back in history and just see the same stuff happening over and over and over and over and over again. I mean, there was a point in history where Catholics and Lutherans were burning and torturing each other.

[Lilin Lavin]
Audremilch Yeah. I mean, look, it's not just Germany. It's Rwanda.

It's Darfur. It's, you know, the different things that have happened globally all over the world. It's because some people that felt that they were right and nobody else mattered and they could do what they wanted to everybody based on how they felt or what they thought about and nobody stood up that had the power to change it.

And right now, we have the power to still change this. And we have a power to send the message that goes further because what the United States does, whether I like it or not, it does affect other places. It does affect mindsets all over.

You can see it happening today. The crappy things that we've allowed to continue on for the many years that we've been experiencing them is reverberating outside of just our country. And if we aren't careful, we will create a world that we do not want to live in.

And we can change that by changing the way we approach this and what we do as people can do that. Each of us has that power in our small sphere and working together to continue that movement into the greater sphere.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. And so again, I kind of go back to first, thank you, Lucien, for the statement that you put out. Thank you for going on the news stations that did allow you to come on and actually, you know, talk to you.

I would love to see you debate Ron DeSantis. I know he won't do that, but it would be a funny debate to watch because…

[Lilin Lavin]
Lisa Schneider I'm still nominating Shalise to be the moderator for that debate because I just think she would definitely not let Ron DeSantis get away with things or hand him a bunch of gimmies to fix everything.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. It would be funny to watch Lucien, like, mop the floor with him. But, you know, I do appreciate the statement put out, and I would want to reiterate it to anybody, any Satanist, or even if you're not a Satanist and you're just upset by this, do not go out and destroy other property.

You know, we get blamed for stuff all the time. I had plenty of people come to me and say, well, what about all the churches that are vandalized and burned? And I'm like, okay, show me where TST did this.

I haven't gotten one response back because they can't, because we don't. So if you feel so inclined that you're just like, oh, I'm so pissed off. If you want to do something, put up a display.

Lisa Schneider Don't destroy, create. Darrell Bock Don't destroy, create. And vote.

You know, that's the other thing you can do. If you're not a creative person or you're like, I don't want to put something up. I don't want to put my family in danger or anything like that.

There's tons of reasons why you would not want to do that. All valid. Vote.

That's the other thing you can do to enact a type of revenge is you can vote. And you can make sure that these people, these radicals do not get to take over our government.

[Lilin Lavin]
Lisa Schneider Oh hell, if you're so inclined, run. If you have the wherewithal, if you have the capability, if you have the desire to do so, run for a position. Be part of what's happening.

I know there are so many times you're part of an organization or you're part of a community and you don't know what to do to help make changes. Get involved at a lower level, at a mid level, at a higher level. Whatever it is you feel capable that you can commit the time to, that you have the comfort in doing, get involved with that.

That could be registering voters. It could be joining with a particular political campaign to help do effective changes or a community organization to do effective changes. There's a lot of opportunity depending on your comfort level to do things.

And maybe that's just providing donations. Maybe that's as much comfort as you have. Find a worthy cause, whatever that cause is, that is working towards what you'd like to see happen and add to it.

Do something.

[Tommy Lavin]
Exactly. So be constructive. Be productive.

Don't be destructive. That's the last thing that we need. Because we are under a microscope and they are going to be looking.

They're going to be hoping. I'm sure that was part of their hope. If we do this, then we're going to show how really bad these Satanists really are.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But I mean, I'm not going to go down that same thing because that's what they kept claiming. We brought this on ourselves.

This is what we wanted. It was a trap. I don't know what their exact motivations were other than I think this poor individual thought they'd get support and maybe another run out of it.

And maybe they will.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, I'm sure. Well, they already got the support.

[Lilin Lavin]
But the important thing is we aren't going to sink to that level. So whatever the motivation was, I don't really care. It was the wrong thing to do.

It's contrary to everything that we built this nation on and the things that we supposedly hold dear, especially as someone that's been part of the military, especially as someone that was part of politics. You know better. And you can't stand there and take that oath of office and pretend that these things matter and then declare that they don't.

That is a direct conflict of factual statements. So, you know, they can be that person. I have values.

My values are pretty clear. And I stand by them, whatever that is. And if I need to make amends for something and apologize and act on that accordingly, I do.

And if I feel strongly about something and I want to get out there and make a change, I do. Yeah, exactly.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, so let's see here. All right. We just crossed an hour.

So we should probably, I mean, we could talk about this for a very long time.

[Lilin Lavin]
And there's probably going to be future reasons, unfortunately, for us to have this conversation. And hey, you know, there's a lot of community members out there with a lot of opinions on this specific event or around things like this. Reach out to us.

You want to have a conversation with the broader public? Be part of one of these discussions? Come on on and have that discussion with us.

Share your perspectives, because this, again, isn't a podcast where we just share our thoughts and our views. It's for all of us.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So with that, again, I just want to reiterate it one more time. Do not go out and destroy things.

Create. Vote. Participate.

Do something productive and show that this was the wrong move because it motivated us even more. And so if they want to continue motivating, they destroy something else. Like I said, they destroy one, put two up.

They destroy two, put four up.

[Lilin Lavin]
And knowing how this feels, being on this end of it, don't fall into the mindset where it's okay to do it to others because it hurt. Stand up for others because it hurt.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we'd absolutely, if somebody went in there and destroyed the nativity scene, I would absolutely stand up and say that was wrong.

They shouldn't do that. And I was probably stupidly hoping that at least some, like a larger majority of Christians would do that. But most of what I saw, most of what I saw was, well, we don't like them.

They don't deserve to be a religion anyways. And so even if they weren't preaching violence or whatnot, they were apologizing for the violence, which is just as bad as, well, she should have known not to wear that. I mean, it's the same sort of statement that they're making.

Well, the Satanists should have known if they put their thing in there, that something bad would happen. It's the same apologetic mentality that you get from other people. And that's just wrong.

No, we have the right to be there.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Just like everyone else by law. I mean, if you guys don't want these things happening and I'd be fine with it, the government property is probably not a great place for religious expression in a lot of cases anyway.

So then don't have any. Put up something that is just neutral. Put up a beautiful display that expresses winter or community.

That's cool. Go ahead and change it like that. But don't sit there and pretend that you can put up religious iconography and just deny other individuals their right to do the same.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. If one is allowed up in government, all are allowed up. That's that's the way our country works.

So if you don't want to see other ones, then just remove all religious iconography, remove all of that stuff from government property.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then there's no problems. And if people want to start complaining about the national motto and bringing up all this crap again, I'm going to just go ahead and go back to what I said a while ago. We could all go back to the model that Franklin had and just mind your business.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Mind your own damn business. So. All right.

With that, we will. I think we can go ahead and cut this because now we're just going to keep reaching and rehashing over and over again. I'm just so pissed over it.

[Lilin Lavin]
I really am. To all of you out there listening, good morning, good afternoon, good night, wherever you may be. And I hope that your day is everything that you want it to be and more.

Hail Satan. Hail Satan.