Ep.24: The Stolen Tree - Exploring Hypocrisy in Holiday Inclusivity

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.24: The Stolen Tree - Exploring Hypocrisy in Holiday Inclusivity

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome dear listeners to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today we're going to give a bit of a nod to the TST Wisconsin congregation for their Sol Invictus tree that they did at the, what was it? The Railroad Museum.

Railroad Museum's Festival of Lights.

[Lilin Lavin]
Is it trees or lights?

[Tommy Lavin]
I'm sorry, Festival of Trees. Yeah, yeah, Festival of Trees. Definitely got a lot of noise this week.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think it's been a little over a week at this point, but it feels like it's gone on forever with how much they've just whined and cried about an added tree to an open space.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, oh, and I do apologize in advance. I am sick.

So if my voice sounds like crap and all of that, that's the reason why. And I'll try not to cough too much into the microphone. So yeah, I mean, so this one I saw spinning around social media and then I know Lucien made a post about it and then I posted about it and Huffington Post then did an article and they kind of quoted Lucien, they quoted me, they quoted a couple other people in there too, so it's kind of funny.

All because of this Republican representative who went on to Fox and basically had like a conniption fit over it.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was too. I mean, it was Michael John Gallagher. He serves the 8th congressional district as a youth representative for Wisconsin.

And it was really interesting listening to his commentary because he essentially said that in a pluralistic space, we really don't belong, but pluralism is the problem essentially. So he tried to argue that they have a right to do different displays and religious things. And yet other religions, which we are a recognized, legally recognized religion, don't belong having celebrations in spaces because we're creating negativity and controversy and we're harming their holiday.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he said something like it ruined his holiday or something like that.

And then he wouldn't bring his kid there because the kid would be surrounded by satanic trees and it's like, dude, there's one tree.

[Lilin Lavin]
And the tree isn't distasteful. It is beautifully decorated. It's got satanic symbolic ornamentation on it.

And the ornaments aren't vulgar. They're not in any way distasteful. It's a beautiful tree that Wisconsin obviously put a lot of work into.

So again, massive congratulations to you guys for all that work and thank you. But what is it about this particular tree that upset this individual other than the fact that it has the word Satan attached to it?

[Tommy Lavin]
I think that's it. And I also want to give big props to the National Railroad Museum for, you know, one being so inclusive to recognize this and two, not to cave to all of these, you know, all this religious discrimination. Because at the end of the day, I mean, I question for Mr. Gallagher would be, you know, as an elected representative, my belief or thought was you are supposed to represent all people in all religions in your district. Are you saying you don't represent Satanists, which is, again, a legal recognized religion because you have an issue with that? Or what other religions don't you also support because they're not Christian?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, for me, imagine if you were to see I was a representative for a district, right, as a Satanist in a world where Satanists could actually do that. And I decided that to me, and again, this is a hypothetical, I am not saying this. But to me, the seeing the cross with a person on it was incredibly vulgar to me.

The idea of someone being tortured and that being shown in front of children was just a horrific idea. And I was incredibly off-put by it. That would be the same sort of, why would that be okay?

If that's something someone else sees differently, and it represents something different to them, that is their right to show that symbolism and to express their deeply held religious beliefs, which is exactly what we as Satanists are doing. In fact, I mean, we are not using such grotesque displays. We are not putting an individual who is tortured on a cross.

That was a torture device. And it wasn't just special to Jesus. Many people were tormented with this specific torture process.

So, it is not just this beautiful thing. And I personally just find it, I do find it off-putting. Yeah, I find it offensive.

But it doesn't mean that I have a right to tell Christians that they cannot have a cross. Exactly. And I would not do that because to them, it symbolizes something important.

And to us, these symbols and this space is important to us.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, I kind of fall back to his job. This is his job.

He's a government official. There's not supposed to be, again, we're back to, we're not supposed to have religion encroaching into government. But according to Mr. Gallagher, if it's not a Christian, well, it doesn't belong there. And it's offensive.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, one could in some lights argue that the Christmas tree itself is in fact a stolen symbol that has been taken and used to just co-opt other people's beliefs and to help them to assimilate into another belief structure. And to have this false indignation where other people are making a mockery of your religious symbolism, when it's not even really your religious symbolism is also an issue that I take with it. I do understand that they've changed it throughout history to represent what they've done to incorporate it.

However, that doesn't take away from where it began historically. And just the hypocrisy of, well, we have the right to defile this symbology and turn it into what we believe is appropriate. How dare anybody else attempt to do that at all?

[Tommy Lavin]
How dare you use the symbol for a holiday that we stole? And it now belongs to us because we stole it from other religions. And forever now, it is ours.

That's basically kind of what they're saying. And it's like, I don't know, these people, they haven't opened up. They haven't cracked the history book.

[Lilin Lavin]
And most people don't know. I believe some of the earliest traditional understanding, it was through Martin Luther. And he said, supposedly, this is where it started, that he was inspired by the stars shining through the branches of a fir tree.

And it reminded him of the story. And then when you look at it, there's a lot more to where it began, you know, as far as how there isn't a specific date. But some said it started there in Germany in the 16th century.

But, you know, others talk about how it was incorporated into other belief systems. And it was then representative to them of nature and worship. And it was intentionally co-opted by the church to bring pagans into their belief.

And the date, in specific, is also right around other holidays like Saturnalia, like Sol Invictus, which we as Satanists celebrate as Solstice, Yule. There's so many other things that already fell on that period, because there is no actual, look through the Bible, date that Jesus was born. They chose this date with a specific reason in mind.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, the goal of it, too, because it's easier to assimilate people into a religion if you allow them to take parts of that religion with them.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jennifer Right, which is why they aligned the Christmas celebration with existing pagan winter Solstice festivals. So, you know, if people go down the street saying Merry Christmas, and you say low Saturnalia, and they get mad, just gently remind them, you know, hey, it did exist prior to your Christ.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. And that's the thing is, you know, this whole war on Christmas that we hear about, nobody's at war over Christmas, except for the Christians. You know, we're not at war with Christmas.

You can have Christmas. We don't have to say Merry Christmas. That's the whole plurality thing is we're allowed the other religions that also have holidays within this same season are allowed their holidays.

And, you know, so this whole war on Christmas thing that you just hear every year around this time is really just Christians throwing a conniption fit. They're throwing a great big temper tantrum, because people celebrate other holidays other than Christmas. And so when they say Merry Christmas to somebody, somebody might come back Happy Holidays, because they're trying to remain neutral.

Oh, my God, that's a war on Christmas. Yeah, no, it's not a war on Christmas. It's recognizing other religions, other people celebrate other holidays during this time.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jennifer I have to say it was interesting for me, because, as you know, maybe other people aren't aware, I've always tried to be very neutral in the way I approach things, just because I just think it's more respectful. So you know, I would Happy Holidays thing. But just as a social experiment last year, and I'm doing it again this year.

So feel free if you happen to encounter me to respond in kind, but in our neighborhood, it's very, very, very, very ornate. Yeah, there are decorations everywhere lights galore. If Texas is having a power outage this year, we may very well have contributed because of the inordinate amount of lights and decorations in our neighborhood.

It is beautiful. But it is it is traffic jams. It is just miles of cars.

It is and it's not just cars. There are hayrides that go through trailers with hay and music and lights. And yeah, so we go out for walks nightly, not as nightly.

Once this season comes around, and it started this year prior to even the the 27th for the National Day of Mourning, where other people celebrate Thanksgiving for for that period, usually it happened after that date. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
But this year, it started even earlier.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So before December had even rolled around, there was actually a few hayrides, which was unprecedented, at least in my recollection. So people already started rolling through and every year, they shout Merry Christmas loudly, often.

And last year, instead of just Happy Holidays, which I would always respond, I began to just roll through a litany of different responses just based on different holidays. So low Saturnalia as we were near Saturnalia, you know, so the Happy Sol Invictus, Blessed Solstice, like I would just roll through them. As people would say it, I would just rotate through different ones just to see the type of response you get.

Will they respond, you know, nicely? Will they respond at all? And want a hint?

Yeah. Over 90% of the time, it would be indignation. Yeah, it would be outrage.

It would be I even had little children. That's not what you're supposed to say, which is fine. That's cute.

But then someone would say, you're a Grinch or bah humbug, and some even less friendly than that. So it was interesting, because it wasn't as if I said F you or Hail Satan. It was just rolling through actual others celebrate holidays, Happy Hanukkah, just different things like that.

And it was interesting to see people actually be angry. I wasn't mad. No.

But they were bad because it was the wrong one to them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Because you didn't respond or I didn't respond. Merry Christmas.

And I remember one time, I even did a very neutral Happy Holidays and somebody got, you know, you could hear him get pissed off over that. And it's like, seriously.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, there was one wagon full of people were a bunch of them started shouting that Jesus loves you, which was interesting, because I did not, you know, it wasn't anything counter. I think it was actually, you know, Happy Holiday or Blessed Solstice. And they took that so negatively that a group of them began shouting, but Jesus loves you, just know that Jesus loves you.

I'm like, that's nice. I'm not interested. You know, I had nothing to do with that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Already this year, when we were on a walk, yeah, remember, I had my Hail Satan sweater on and we already had somebody stop saying, it's gonna be really hot where you're going, you know, because it was a cold night.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we weren't even looking at the people we were just out on a walk with our dogs, because our dogs every evening have their nightly constitutional, they like to go out and do their thing. And sure enough, there you were, you know, and this person twice, it's gonna be real hot where you're going. We ignored it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, just totally ignored it. But it is interesting in a season that's supposed to be full of love and peace, that if you don't do exactly what they want, they get very angry, bordering on violent at times, you know, and it's and, you know, again, it doesn't help when Fox News and Republican representatives, then, you know, basically, I don't know what else to call it other than religious discrimination, right on live TV. And, you know, it's like, oh, okay, you know, because we're Satanist, we're not entitled, we're not entitled to be able to celebrate our holiday as well, because it overlaps with a holiday that they stole, and they now own, according to them.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and it wasn't just against Satanism, per se. They also were quite upset about the inclusion of LGBTQIA displays as well, which again, this is about an inclusive space, it was a festival of trees, they were many different 66, 66 trees, exactly 66 different trees that were there to display just different types of messaging, non negative, non vulgar, non inappropriate, unless you're just so opposed to a specific group that you feel it's it's somehow an infringement on your constitutional rights, which I bought, included free speech and pluralism.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I know there was one person that was trying to say that the the satanic tree was a anti constitutional, anti constitutional, falling under hate, yeah, hate speech, because it was there to directly counter religion, Christian, Christian belief system, they were there essentially, like making light of it and being evil, which was really weird, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Because we're not there, we don't exist just to contradict other religions, we exist, because we are a religion, we are a deeply held belief system, that is, it's very diverse between individuals, but we have beliefs that matter to us. And one of those things is fighting against arbitrary authority. And this is a perfect example of what we believe deeply should be done, we want to make an inclusive statement for everyone.

When we're out there fighting for religious plurality, we don't just mean for Satanist. You know, if things were to shift drastically in the world, and Christians were no longer supposed to do things publicly, I would be just as angry about that. You know, provided that they weren't trying to display hate symbols, because that's a whole different ballgame.

[Tommy Lavin]
But yeah, Dr. Darrell Bock Somebody else tried to say that Satanism was like a keen to Sharia law, they were like, if you want to see what Sharia law looks at, look at Satanism, which I commented back on on Twitter. And I was like, actually, Christian nationalism is, is closer to Sharia law. Satanism is about as far away as you can get from Christian nationalism and Sharia law.

But if you look at the two of those and stack them up together, they're pretty on par with each other.

[Lilin Lavin]
Dr. Danielle Pletka I mean, it's an incredibly subjective viewpoint, right? Because they're claiming offense, which, interestingly enough, we cover in our in our tenants, everyone has a right to be offended. The point is to find a way to be comfortable with yourself and not to allow offense to bypass your sense of logic, empathy, compassion.

It is okay to be offended. It's okay to be offensive. We as Satanists are offended all the time.

There's not a lot of things publicly we can do that doesn't upset someone to the point that they feel the need to share that, which is their right, provided they do it respectfully. I'm just going to keep on doing what I'm doing. But what gets really interesting is if you offend others, it's not about being tolerant.

It's not about sitting with your offense and learning how to work through it, which is a healthy exercise that we hopefully taught, you know, our kids when they were young. It's then just lashing out and pretending that it's justified and sanctified because you have a certain faith when your faith is one of hundreds of different beliefs, especially the ones that fall within this season.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Danielle Pletka Yeah, hundreds. I mean, you know, depending on how you look at it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Dr. Danielle Pletka Right, I mean, if we're talking about December in specific, it's not just limited to the Christian belief system. Dr. Darrell Bock Absolutely not. Dr. Danielle Pletka You know, there's Hindu celebrations that overlap. There's, you know, different New Year celebrations that come later. There's, you know, Hanukkah season. There's, you know, Kwanzaa.

There's tons of different things that are celebrated, the solstice. Yeah, we are very involved with our local pagan community. There's Mithras, there's Saturnalia.

There's many different things all manner of individuals celebrate. And I don't see them, you know, right pissed because the cross is everywhere, nativity scenes are everywhere. And you can't even see the word Noel without a giant nativity scene in the zero in the O.

So it's like, why such outrage when you are the dominantly displayed religion everywhere?

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Darrell Bock Again, this kind of also falls back on our we did that episode about Christian persecution, you know, where they claim they're being persecuted, but they're actually the ones persecuting everybody else because all these other religions are tolerant of Christians having Christmas. Tolerant doesn't mean we have to celebrate the same holiday. Tolerant doesn't mean that we have to put a cross in our yard.

Tolerant doesn't mean that we have to say Merry Christmas back to you when you say it. We can come back with happy solstice or happy holidays or whatever we personally believe. And all these others, like you said, you know, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, you know, all these other religions don't seem to be going to quote unquote war with the Christians over this.

It is them going to war with everybody else because they can't get their way. And their way is they want a theocratic Christian nation that, you know, everything's just Christian.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And we do interact with a ton of different and in the pagan groups that we hang out with, Christian individuals are invited and they do participate because these are Christians that truly are living through what they believe, the example that Christ set for them to be people among people, to be a, you know, a leader among men and to do good things in the community. So, I have no issue with those individuals because they do share really great perspectives that I very much respect.

What I start to have an issue with is individuals like this who I really feel are just extremists that are, you know, LARPing as Christians that just have usurped an entire belief system, ironically, that they then just use for their own little bully pulpit to push a stupid point. And in this case, the stupid point is that we're right, you're wrong, nana nana, and we don't have to deal with you. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And they always go back to what about the children? I mean, I don't know how many articles I saw about this that each one of them had a what about the children from some Christian person. What about the children?

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm happy to discuss what about the children. What about the children who are told that they should be seen and not heard, that they should be, you know, essentially used as, you know, child labor in their home, that they should be struck because it's the way that you're taught how to be XYZ individual in religious belief structures. I mean, I'm fine if you want to say, well, we are such a paragon of, you know, just treating children with respect and have these deeply held beliefs that venerate children and respect them and encourage them.

And yet, not to say all Christians, because there are plenty that have a beautiful respect for children and do not treat them in the way I've seen from others. But again, I live in a state where recently we had to actually travel to a district that felt it was appropriate to paddle children in the excess of over 1,109 times in one school year. That's one school, one high school, one rural high school.

Again, think about the size of a rural high school. This is one small rural high school in one school year, which isn't even 365 days because of vacation and whatnot and weekends. So, 1,109 separate incidents.

And why do we still have corporal punishment in the state of Texas? Because when the legislature tried to get rid of it... Spare the rod, spoil the child.

The Bible was quoted. So, please don't... What about the children?

What about the children? Me, when I could very easily ask the same question. And the most ironic part of trying to combat any of these things when it comes to kids is, you know, how dare you?

How dare I ask you not to harm your kids? How dare I not believe that physical violence is a way to teach people? Oh, and then my favorite, it always goes to, but you believe in abortion.

Okay. Believing in bodily autonomy of existing individuals is very different from exercising that right before an individual actually exists and respecting the fact that not all people, for whatever reason, need to or want to be parents at a certain time in their life. It is not the same as actively harming an existing aware individual for some twisted purpose.

Yeah. So yeah, there's my, there's my rant on that. I'm sorry.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's your, what about the children?

[Lilin Lavin]
What about the children? Yeah. So, you know, when you can stop, when I can stop pointing to incidents of abuse that are being used biblically, then you can, what about the children?

Me, all you want.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I totally agree. So for us Satanists, you know, people will be like, well, what holiday do TST Satanists celebrate?

[Lilin Lavin]
We have several. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, okay. What December holiday do TST Satanists celebrate and why, what's the meaning around it?

[Lilin Lavin]
So for TST, we have Sol Invictus, which is our modern interpretation of an ancient holiday. Actually it existed back in Rome. For TST, it's a celebration of being unconquered by superstition and consistent in the pursuit and sharing of knowledge.

So the cult of Sol existed within Rome since its early days as a Republic and Invictus was an epitaph used for Jupiter, Mars, and Apollo, as well as others. The festival celebrated these gods and may have also been used to celebrate the winter solstice. So in modern times, we celebrate this holiday representing triumph over superstition and consistent pursuit and sharing of knowledge, essentially.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's so offensive.

[Lilin Lavin]
I know I'm offended. How dare you try to educate people? Fucking knowledge.

Oh my gosh. Wasn't there a snake that did something like that? As a matter of fact, I believe it was Illinois.

Recently we had a, yeah, it was through the representation campaigns. So there's a gentleman named Adam Virick, and he works very hard at Satanic representation. And they recently had last year, I believe it was, the Snake-tivity, which was a really amazing display for those who were involved.

Thank you for that. But it was beautiful because it tackled banned books. It tackled the idea of the serpent in the garden actually being there to help liberate.

And in the display was a reflective surface so that as you looked at the display, you're actually asked to challenge yourself and your thoughts about the display. So yeah, that was huge. Hats off to Adam and what they do at the Satanic representation and all of Illinois for the constant reminders and consistent representation that you guys share in your thoughtful displays that you put out every year.

Yeah, that's, that is really, really cool.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, I don't know how much more we can take this or how much more.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, I can certainly go on though. I doubt everyone wants to just hear us drone about it. This isn't Fox News.

So I suppose we can leave it at that. But I will, I will encourage everyone, be proud of whatever it is that you celebrate, even if that's just your family or your friends or your loved ones and getting together and embracing what we have. A lot of people pretend that atheists don't have anything to celebrate and have no real reason to celebrate anything at all.

And yet we live our lives every day. We celebrate and that's worth celebrating. The fact that we have anything in our life, even our life at all is worth celebrating.

[Tommy Lavin]
And yes, Satanists can put up lights, Satanists can do all sorts of decorations, and that's okay. I mean, it's us celebrating our holiday.

[Lilin Lavin]
I have a plan to do something cool, but it's going to take a little while to get the full thing going. So we'll report back if I'm able to get at least what I'd like to get started, started and as well as the potential reactions we get for that. So I guess stay tuned.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And with that, especially since I am feeling really sick this week, I think we're going to cut this one a little bit short. 30 minutes is still good.

It's not our normal hour, but we can only drone on about.

[Lilin Lavin]
We don't want to become the war on Christmas part two. So we'll reserve the righteous indignation and then leave that baton where it is with the individuals currently crying about it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Absolutely. So everybody hail Satan and have a wonderful holiday.