Ep.23: Advocating Autonomy: A Stand for Student Rights

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.23: Advocating Autonomy: A Stand for Student Rights

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist-seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. As you know, last week we didn't do a podcast because we were a little bit busy. And so we thought we would take the opportunity with this episode and talk a bit about what we were doing with the Protect Children Project.

And we have a lot of the, a lot of the members that came along with us and campaign, what did you be? Coordinator? LFS?

Or what's your official title?

[Eliphaz Costus]
Campaign Director.

[Tommy Lavin]
Campaign Director with us. Okay. So I thought the best way to do this would be, kind of, let's start out with LFS.

Why don't you give a bit of an overview? You know, who, what, when, where, why, how, you know, why did this come about? How did Dumas get selected and all of that?

And then we can have the group join in after that. Sound good?

[Eliphaz Costus]
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm LFS Costas, Campaign Director of Protect Children Project.

And of course, Protect Children Project is a campaign of the Satanic Temple. And our goal is to provide a religious exemption from certain punishments that occur in public school that members of TST are exempt from because they violate our deeply held belief in bodily autonomy. Those punishments being corporal punishment, solitary confinement, or often known as seclusion, restraints, physical and mechanical, and as well, denial of bathroom access.

Because, yeah, these all violate Tenet Three, the belief in bodily inviolability, and therefore are not allowed against our members. So we advocate on behalf of those members and, yeah, provide resources so they can protect themselves in school from those kind of abuses.

[Tommy Lavin]
So how was Dumas? I mean, because we went kind of to the middle of nowhere in Texas, you know. How did that school get picked?

[Eliphaz Costus]
Well, you know, we wanted to highlight our new initiative called the Student Rights Card, which is a tool that can be used by TST members. It's an official TST document that asserts that they're a member of the Satanic Temple and that they're deeply held beliefs in bodily autonomy mean that they have a religious exemption from, you know, the punishments I mentioned before. And if those religious rights are disregarded, they can result in legal action by TST's lawyers.

So I believe we're probably, as far as I know, the first religion to take this stance against punishments in school and offering a religious rights exemption. And so to highlight this new initiative, we wanted to actually, you know, have an in-person direct action to sort of gain some attention around it and make students aware that it was out there as a tool to protect themselves. And, you know, Dumas first got on my radar because I started researching corporal punishment rates in Texas.

And the reason I chose Texas is because historically it's had a really high rate of corporal punishment. And back in 2017, 2018, the civil rights data collection, which is a collection of data from all around the country, but that showed that Texas had the second highest rate of corporal punishment. And then also right before Satan Con, there was a bill that was proposed in the Texas legislature, I think for the ninth time to ban corporal punishment, and it was voted down.

And several of the Republican legislatures cited their righteous belief in the Bible as the reason they wanted to keep corporal punishment in schools, which enraged me and made me, you know, turn my attention toward Texas. And so through a lot of research into, you know, different school districts that still use corporal punishment and what their, you know, their rates were, I landed on Dumas, Dumas, dumbass, I don't know how to pronounce it. And, you know, I sent them, you know, their numbers from 2017, 2018 were really high.

So then I sent them a Freedom of Information Act request to get the numbers of the most recent years, because I wanted to make sure, you know, we were, we'd chosen a location that was still egregiously using this, this disciplinary act. And when they sent me the numbers back, I was horrified because their numbers showed in the last three years, an ever increasing rate of corporal punishment, culminating in over 1000 cases last year, last school year alone, 1009, to be exact, which is insane, frankly, like, obscene. Yeah.

And I'd never seen anything close to that, that level of use. So I thought they, you know, they deserve to have a visit from us. And, you know, the purpose was, yeah, to to make the community and make the student body aware that members of TST and people who are interested in becoming members could take information from us.

And, you know, if they decided they they wanted to become a member, then they had power to, to stop that, those punishments from happening. Yeah, I'm just rambling now. But long story short, yeah, Dumas, you know, has a really terrible history of hitting their students.

And, yeah, that's why that school was chosen, in particular, Dumas High School, which had the highest numbers.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, which was insane. 1109 separate incidents of corporal punishment enacted on students, you got to think there's 365 days a year, you're probably in school separate about 4.54 months out. So you're literally just seeing repeated incidents of this over and over on a daily almost basis to reach those numbers.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Well, why don't we, why don't we take a moment and have everybody else sort of do a round robin around the room to introduce who's on the call, and maybe introduce yourself and say, you know, what, what, what, what motivated you to go along with the rest of us to this? Who wants to start?

I'm going to pick somebody if not. Okay, Lansford. Well, howdy, I'm Lance for longinus.

And I'm, I'm the congregation head for the San Antonio congregation TST. And I mean, my main motivating factor was this is a Texas thing. I mean, pretty much, you know, it was in Texas. And, and pretty much most of us there were all from this state from San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, Austin.

And yeah, I mean, I mean, I support the campaign, of course. But yeah, guys, that's that was my motivation. Yeah.

Who's next? Maybe. Maybe.

Daniel, how about you?

[Daniel]
Yeah, hello. I'm Daniel. So I'm a long time member of the Austin TST, TST Austin congregation.

Yeah. So my motivation to take part in this was, I'm originally from Germany. And I grew up in, in, in the belief that something like corporate punishment does not exist anymore today.

And I was pretty shocked when I found out that in the US, and especially in Texas, this is a thing and like not like on the lighter side of things. It's like, an extent that is really shocking to me. And especially the normalization of it, that is something that is a method to turn out better people by hitting them.

And I think that's just wrong. So yeah, absolutely.

[Tommy Lavin]
Lucy, maybe.

[Lucy]
Yeah, hi, I'm Lucy. I'm one of the congregation head of TST Austin. I found out about that at SatanCon last year, or it was this year, I believe LFS came to our merge table at SatanCon and proposed his idea to us.

And I was immediately like in and said, Oh, yeah, we have to do we definitely have to do something about that. Let me know what you need, how we can make that unlike a thing. Just Yeah, just let me know whatever you need.

And you will be there. And I was immediately and when I read about that, I was so shocked that that is still a thing. And also like the argument from the legislator and then citing the Bible because of that.

I was just like, irritated like that. It was horrible. It was just horrible to hear.

And I was immediately like hooked on the idea that we do something here in Texas. And I live in Texas for seven years now. I don't have kids here in school.

But yeah, I just thought we have to do something. And yeah, I gladly drove so many hours up there in the middle of the Texas panhandle in the middle of nowhere. I was like, it's for sure.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, definitely was long drive. Minister Ty.

[Ty]
Hi, I'm Ty. I'm the event director for TST Austin. And I've worked in education for over well over a decade and been like education adjacent for probably two decades in my career.

Having being newer to Texas and realizing that corporal punishment was a thing. All the districts I worked for even the district I work for now, it would just be unheard of the parents wouldn't stand for it. So it was really shocking to me to hear that.

And I just wanted to be a part of making sure that students know that this is not okay. It's not normal. It's not the norm.

I was talking to co workers and they were telling stories about how their principals used to paddle them. That's creepy. And so I wanted to make sure that students had some education information and know the message is really powerful to know that other people agree with you that what you're having to experience is wrong.

And I wanted to make sure to be a part of that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Cool. I don't know if Sitlali is joined again or not.

[Speaker 2]
I'm here.

[Tommy Lavin]
Okay. Why don't you introduce yourself? And why did you show up?

[Speaker 2]
Hi, everybody. I'm Minister Sitlali Suna. So I actually, as Lucy was telling about how LFAS approached our table, because we had a and I'm a co-congregation leader from the Dallas Fort Worth, TST Dallas Fort Worth congregation.

I do remember that I wasn't there, but I was probably running off doing something, one of the million things that there's to do at St. I do remember that they had that conversation and it was just kind of a sea planet back then. And in one of our initial meetings, what kind of motivated me to kind of continue to pursue this was some of the questions that came into mind were, what are the demographics of the school? Because I, to be honest, I am not surprised that there's still corporal punishment out in rural Texas, sadly, but as Minister Tai said earlier, that's a corporal punishment is unheard of in any of the major cities.

Like I also have teaching experience and that just doesn't exist in any of the major cities. But I wasn't surprised, but what did surprise me was the number. It was a really high number.

And not only that, one of the first questions that I asked during one of our initial meetings about this was, what are the demographics of the students and what does the administration of the school look like? So the first part is I just found out it's a really high amount. And please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the number of Hispanic slash Mexican American students at the school is about 80%, which is very high for a rural school. Not only that, a lot of the administration was either white or appeared to be white. So that was one of my other concerns as well.

And I, as Lansifer also mentioned before, this is kind of something for Texans by Texans. Like it wasn't, a majority of us were from Texas and we wanted to show up for other Texans to be like, we're noticing that this is happening. You're not alone.

You have rights. And so that's what kind of motivated me to participate in this and to kind of put this as a group effort as like a TST Texas thing as well.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just so proud of everyone. And just to make everyone aware, LFS, who is the campaign director, came out from an entirely different state.

Outside of LFS, it was an entirely Texas crew. Tommy and myself representing Houston. I'm one of the co-congregation heads with the Houston congregation.

So you guys kind of talked about what your motivation was. I was hoping we can talk about what you feel as a participant. The atmosphere was like, how did you feel we were perceived as people in the community where we were?

What do you feel like? How did the event go off just to start things?

[Tommy Lavin]
Lucy got her hand up first and then LFS after that.

[Lucy]
Yeah, for me, it was, it was surprising at the morning when we showed up, like before, before school started. So, yeah, we did like this in two parts. We started like really early in the morning.

We set everything up before the school started and then came back in the afternoon for the early dismissal. And then for me, it was really surprising. As soon as we set, we're setting up everything.

There was like right, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes and there was like this family approaching us. I already saw them like turning around the corner with a huge smile on their face and really happy. And you could actually see how happy they were that we are here.

And then they came around the corner and approached us and I just heard them yelling. It's like, thank you so much that you're here and came out here in rural Texas and that you're supporting us and do what you do. And it was, it was so heartwarming for me.

And I also thought that's why we're here. That's really what motivates me being a, being a salemist and being a member of TST for so long. It's like, that's what I want to do.

And that's what, what kind of like drives me all the time, like doing stuff like that. And I was really surprised like finding really like supporters out in the middle of nowhere in Texas. It was so cool.

[Eliphaz Costus]
It was really sweet. Yeah. I mean, going into it, I was definitely really nervous because, you know, especially I haven't been in Texas in a long time.

And, you know, I know that being in rural Texas is probably not the safest place for Satanists to set up shop and make their voices heard. But, and also the night before, because the information about us showing up was, was leaked a bit earlier than we intended because the superintendent and the principal wanted to notify the students and the parents that who we were and that we were coming, which, you know, is there, is there right. But we, you know, there was a big uproar in the community and we saw all these, there's all these different church groups calling on people to come out to the school and have a giant prayer circle and yeah, circle the school praying and chanting and whatever they do, snake handling.

I don't know. But so, and we were sort of monitoring that activity on, on Facebook live pretty much, or I wasn't because I was, you know, I didn't want to stress myself out too much, but I know that Lance, you were, and Lance just kept going, wow. Oh, wow.

We're, we're in for something to the next day. But yeah, when we, when we showed up, there really weren't any, we didn't really deal with many protesters or anything like that. You know, a few people walking by with snarky remarks here and there, some, some middle fingers thrown from car windows.

And, you know, at one point a fire truck came by and honked really loud to, to freak me out, to freak us out. But you know, in general, it, it went off very smoothly. And yeah, we just, we felt safe, I think.

I felt safe. And that was also because of the great work from the, the local school district police force, who I definitely have to give credit to for, you know, taking our, our first amendment right to be there seriously and making sure the situation was absolutely in control.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I'd say our security did a really good job too.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Oh yeah. As well, our, our, our private security guards who were just wonderful. And yeah.

Shout out to them and I'll keep their, their name off the, off the recording. But yeah, it was just so great to have, have them there. And the, the, the guy who ran the company was there, Eli, and he's actually an immigrant from Tanzania.

And he said this wonderful smile and really kind eyes. And he just, he really let us know that he was, he was there to protect us and didn't care what, you know, what our religion was. Unlike the security team I had hired the night before, just, or the day before basically just sent me an email openly discriminating against us and saying he was canceling the job.

And also credit to fell Fennex for helping us find that security last minute. And, and also being our eyes in the sky and monitoring the, you know, the internet chatter and all the stuff that was going on that we couldn't see with as part of the Cerberus security monitoring company. So yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So Lolly, you had your hand up.

[Speaker 2]
I'm just, we're just kind of sharing our experiences there. Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Um, it was certainly interesting just to add on to, um, the, what we observed is there were a lot, like, I guess we can start from the beginning. Um, well, you know, media greeted us there. First things first, they were already there waiting for us.

Um, so that's, I'm not, you know, that's not something that I'm used to at this point, whenever we go anywhere. Um, but what kind of, um, I, I thought was a very sweet gesture was that there was a woman who was probably Mexican American who dropped off a bag of, um, burritos, like hand, like homemade burritos and, uh, uh, sausage biscuits, sausage and biscuit sandwiches for us. And I had that interaction with her.

She kind of, um, you know, said like, here's breakfast for y'all have a good day and just kind of went on her way, which by the way, everyone I've had both the biscuits, many biscuits, many burritos. They're okay. I'm fine.

So, but I do want to add to that. I don't, I mean, it's up to y'all. If you want to include this bit, like, I feel like if she hadn't been a woman of color, I would have been more hesitant about trying that food.

And I explained that to someone too. They're like, yeah, they were not a person of color. I wouldn't have trusted it.

And I have hesitation too. And I don't blame everyone for not wanting to eat it. That's fine.

But for me, it was like, I don't know. I think she didn't say anything about Jesus as well. She didn't say like, Oh God bless you or anything like that.

She just said, here's food for y'all have a good day. That's it. And it was, it was a lot.

It was enough for, for everybody to probably have two, two of the, of the burritos and stuff. But I saw stuff like that, just like stuff emerging that the whole town isn't out there to get us. Now I did feel, you know, some, uh, I had some bad gut feelings about some stuff and you know, like when we went to go eat at that cafe and we essentially got, ran out of that cafe, that was not fun.

And I'm, I'm forever grateful for that security. That was on heightened alert. They were, you know, they were kind of, you know, asking questions, redirecting questions from the people that were there that essentially didn't want us there.

So long story short of that for your listeners is that we went to eat at a cafe, um, nearby and the cafe was wonderful. The staff was wonderful. They completed their part in terms of serving us, but they had, we had some people from the town that saw who we were.

They weren't happy with who we were and they, it looked like there was going to be a confrontation that was going to go down. And so we essentially just hightailed it out of there. Um, so, and it was, you know, and I had a very uneasy feeling.

And at the time I was on the phone doing something else, but I, I had my eyes on them and I was like, I don't, I don't like that they're looking at us. And, you know, as, as, you know, um, I'm Mexican American in this country already have a heightened sense of like two older white guys looking at me, staring at me. I don't, that, that just made me feel uneasy to begin with.

Um, so, but to kind of make up for it in the afternoon, we had students that stopped by and I talked to them and, you know, we had, as, as, uh, y'all know, we had the student rights cards in both English and Spanish because the, the, the community does speak, uh, it's a high Spanish speaking community. It's a high percentage. And so, um, in the afternoon there was a, a young man who came in and joined us, who found out that we were coming and it was great talking to him.

And it was, you know, coming into this, I didn't really know about the town. I just knew the statistics. I knew that it was like middle of nowhere, Texas, little town.

And he really gave us perspective about the town, about how, you know, who people are employed by, um, who the percentage of people that live there and how a lot of them are religious. Right. And how he was shocked and surprised that corporate punishment doesn't really exist on the Eastern side of the state.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right.

[Speaker 2]
Well, in the major cities, I'm talking about the major cities, because I mean, y'all can correct me, but people that are like outside of the major cities, like outside of like Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, Houston, San Antonio, and all that, they think of us as like the big city people.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Speaker 2]
And you know, those heathens over there, those Austin heathens over there. Um, so there's kind of an unspoken division there between the state and, you know, that's why I, um, kind of, uh, emphasize that this was by Texans for Texans as well. And this young gentleman just gave me such a great perspective of like how surprised he was that people were not doing this anymore in other parts of the state on how, um, cultural perspective as well as like how some of these students had to take that punishment and how, how sometimes it wasn't really a choice and, you know, that just talking to him just brought up more questions, which I'm sure we'll run into later. But, um, overall, it was a great experience, even though sometimes it was a little nerve wracking. And I didn't tell this to anyone, I think.

So I'm coming up with this like new reveal, I guess. When we went to the pharmacy in town to go buy gear, right. From the high school.

Cause they like, they sell licensed gear there. So there were two people that saw my shirt. And of course our shirts that we had were the protect children project with the satanic temple.

And on the back it says, you know, the says the third tenant and someone, they saw me with the shirt. They came in and I knew they had eyes on me. I knew that they were looking at me, whatever.

Right. But as I was checking out, uh, I was, you know, doing this off checkout thing. And, uh, they, they were right behind me and they were like, Oh, thank God for chips.

And I almost wanted to turn around and be like, Oh yeah. Thank, thank the people that helped grow those chips and help package those chips because everyone else, but God did the work for those. And just to be petty, I very slowly scanned everything poked around on the, on the screen and just, I knew they were behind me and I was doing it to be petty at this point.

And I, I, I took some, I took a kick out of it. The, you know, people were like, where, where's she's lying? She's taking a long time.

Well, that's why it took long.

[Tommy Lavin]
Makes sense to me.

[Speaker 2]
Partially.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, I, I thought the event went off, uh, really smooth. Um, like, like you said, you know, there was, there was that one incident, um, in the restaurant that was a bit of a close call, but, um, I, I, I do have to give hats off to the, the sheriff that, you know, he did a really good job of respecting us, respecting our first amendment, right.

And, um, you know, when there almost was an incident at the school, you know, he was really quick to chase those people and remind them you're not supposed to be here. You know, they have a right to be here and they can, they, you know, they can be here and so go, go, go away. Um, so I think he did a really good job.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah. I was, yeah, of course we had the, uh, the troll testers. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Trademark. I almost forgot about them. Yes.

They were fun because they came in with all the preconceived notions and absolutely did not feel like they really were there for the, the issue. It was more to push their particular perspective. Yeah.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Well, they were also filming us and they wanted to make a, you know, a tick tock video of them owning the Satanists or something, but that didn't work out that way.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no, it all kind of backfired on them. I definitely wanted to point out one of the most impressive things to me. Um, there was a few really strong things that stuck out, but, uh, the young man that came to see us that, uh, second part of the day and stood with us with his, his sign, which was a really awesome.

It was a resist fist breaking a paddle, which the symbolism there was outstanding. Um, but the night before, and this is his community, he's a young man. It's a very rural town.

He is a Mexican American individual. He stood outside that night when all the protesters were there angry that we were going to be showing up with his two signs, singing a song peacefully to contradict what the Christian notion of, um, love and acceptances when they push these kinds of ideals. And to me, not only was that a huge, powerful statement, but the strength it takes because we leave at the end of the day, that's his community.

So hats off to him and the strength that he showed in the face of such adversity.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh yeah, definitely.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah, absolutely. I was, I was blown away when Eduardo came and joined us with the sign. Um, because he stopped by really briefly, like, uh, maybe an hour before or a little bit before then he had to leave.

He's like, Oh, I'm coming back. I'm gonna have to drive my brother somewhere and I'm coming back. And I was like, Oh, okay, maybe I'll see this guy again.

And then he comes back with this amazing sign and he's just, he's like, can I stand with you guys? And that, I mean, that really moved me, um, that he, yeah, that he, it meant so much to him that we were there. Um, and, and the reason why is because he grew up in the Dumas school district.

Um, and he, you know, experienced lots of corporal punishment and he was telling us how it wasn't until it's so normalized in the community that it wasn't until he got a bit older and spent time, um, outside of that community and, you know, gain some, some more wisdom that he realized how wrong it is and how, you know, when he was a child, he just thought that he, you know, deserved to be hit because he was just a bad kid or something. And, and it wasn't until he, you know, gained this new awareness.

He, um, it was just, you know, uh, just how things are done at Dumas, but he's, he's now, you know, a really strong advocate against hitting children. And, um, so yeah, it was really, I think it was really meant a lot to him that we were there and it meant a lot to me and all of us that he came and joined us. And also his, his girlfriend came in and stood in solidarity with us as well.

And he also talked about, which I think is really important that, you know, cause the school, one of the excuses they like to make for continuing corporal punishment is, oh, you know, well we give the a choice whether they want to be hit or they want to have detention for three hours or, or sometimes I think it's, it could even be suspension from school.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Eliphaz Costus]
And, um, yeah. And he was talking about how he didn't, uh, you know, when he was at the high school, he was, he had, he was working at McDonald's because he had to also work to help support his family who was struggling a bit financially. And he didn't, so it wasn't really a choice because he couldn't have three hour detention after school and miss work.

So he had to take his, uh, swats and they, they call them swats because they want to make it sound less violent, but really they're hitting children with a giant paddle.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Eliphaz Costus]
And, uh, so is it really a choice? Not, not really. And also it's, even if they are offering the students a choice, it's not a, it's not a choice that's fair to put on a child who doesn't understand the implications of the long term, the long-term, uh, traumatic implications of being hit.

Uh, and so it's, it's not, uh, I call to quote, to take Lance's phrase, I call bullshit on that explanation. Yeah. I swooped in there and used it Lance.

Yeah.

[Ty]
I think it's really important to point out that it's not just the choice that it's one, I think that Lolly's like dead on with it's their administration is solidly I looked it up. They are a hundred percent white, um, at least white passing at minimum. And I think that if you are coming from a place where you don't understand, like you believe you're offering a choice, but it's not a choice, that's something that you need to really critically look at.

And so, you know, for, you know, for their own feelings saying, well, the students can choose, but do they truly understand what privilege is required to be able to make that choice to not choose a slot? And I don't think that's there. And so I think it's really important that groups like ours kind of throw those questions back at people because, you know, I've worked at title one schools.

I've worked with students that are historically disadvantaged, and I would much rather work there because the times I worked at privileged schools, it's really difficult to unteach privilege. It's almost impossible. And so I think it's really important that we're in these spaces, bringing up these questions for people so that they have to dig deep.

I think about myself when I was the age of the student that joined us, and I would have been on the other side. I would have been in that prayer circle. I would have been, you know, clutching my pearls kind of a situation.

You know, kudos to him for having such strong grounds, because for me, it was always like, well, I would just kind of brush off the hypocrisy of it until it finally got to a point where I was like, okay, I'm not that kind of Christian. I was like, oh, wait, actually, I'm not Christian at all, it turns out. And I think that it's really important for these to be presence of people and say, like, hey, being a good person, making good choices, treating people fair, that's not a Christian thing.

I think when we're talking about, like, supremacy, culture, and theocracy, goodness gets tied into religion so much. And I think it's really important for people in smaller communities to see that you can be a good person, do amazing things, and all these things that weren't settling well with you that you just kind of like, let, you know, slide by, because your community is writing it off, is not okay. And your gut was right, because you kind of get gaslit by your town when you grow up in a community like that.

And I think that's what shocked me the most is that how many people were not trying to, I thought when we came in, a lot of people tried to deflect and really just focus on Satan, Satan, Satan, but they were really focused on why would you remove this level of discipline, right? We need this. It won't be good if they don't have it.

And that really shocked me, because if the only thing keeping you from being good is violence, what kind of person are you?

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Ty]
And so I think this whole thing just kind of really rocked my perspective. And I think about me at a younger age, and how, how much Satanism has helped me grow as a person and really like solidify my identity. And so I'm so thankful that a group of us went out there to help, help that for other people, whether or not they identify as Satanist, just the idea that, hey, you do not have to be Christian to be good.

And when a bunch of people who have the label of goodness are doing things that are wrong, that is not good.

[Tommy Lavin]
Absolutely. And I, I would say, you know, they, they kept going back to this, it's a choice. You know, as I love fast brought up, you know, and it's the, the other part of the quote unquote choices, you take the swats, as they call them, again, sort of downplaying hitting children.

And your other choice is three days out of school suspension, which are unexcused absences, which after so many unexcused absences, your family gets fined. So is it really a choice? I mean, you're putting a financial decision on a child.

Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I mean, if you look at Dumas High School, and I encourage listeners to go ahead and do that, go ahead and Google it, take a look, zoom out, and you're going to see this small town surrounded by farmland. And our experience, my experience, when I, when I went there, you get there, the, I believe, biggest employer is a feedlot slash meat processing, which that's a big deal. These people are working every day very hard to have the living that they have.

And then, you know, you roll up to the school. And one of the biggest things that greet you, which I actually found a bit surprising was a sign. And it's a big attention.

Please be aware that the staff at Dumas ISD are armed and will use whatever force necessary to protect our students and staff. That is not a small statement in a very tiny town. Yeah.

All right, what's next? Wait, let's see.

[Speaker 2]
Can I add something to that? A frustration from that, like, Texas politicians are driving these schools to make that decision, right? Like, again, that's arming teachers.

That was a conversation in at least the Dallas-Fort Worth area. But a lot of us agreed that that's not a good idea, especially with who you have in the classroom. But also it's like, it's shocking, but I'm also not surprised that they had to take that in mind.

Because at this point, like, talking about Uvalde, that was also a small town, probably similar demographics as well. It's just so frustrating. And so, like, we have to constantly do stuff for Texans by Texans, if that makes sense.

[Lilin Lavin]
It does. And when we have many representatives there to help speak about this and share about this, I think it's valuable. And regardless of whether or not the people agree with who we are, what we may represent to them, it's hard to argue with the fact that what we want is for your children not to be abused.

And honestly, you could dress it up however you want, but it is abuse. And we know because of the psychological studies that hating people to teach them how to be a better person doesn't necessarily grow a person that is not prone to violence as a means of redirecting the situation. So.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, the other thing that struck me was that it was an opt-out. So, we have corporal punishment in our school district, but it's opt-in and there it's automatic. You have to opt out of it.

That just seemed a bit backwards, you know, with everything there was kind of backwards, but this was like just that extra, really? This is like default for you guys. I don't know.

All right. Eliphaz, you got your hand up.

[Eliphaz Costus]
From what I've seen, that's actually the norm when it comes to, it is from the policies that I've looked at at different schools, that's the norm is that parents have to opt out from it. And, you know, that's something that gets brought up a lot. But, you know, we would also argue that students, even children have, you know, their own, sorry, I lost my chair.

We would, Protect Children Project would argue that students, people under 18 still have religious rights of their own that can be independent from their parents' beliefs. And so, even if a parent doesn't opt them out from corporal punishment, students can still assert their belief in bodily autonomy regardless of what their parents think. So, that's another excuse that's often made that, you know, we don't accept.

[Lilin Lavin]
For each of you guys who want to participate in this, when you went there, what do you feel the goal was that you were trying to reach in your action? Do you feel like you met that goal?

[Tommy Lavin]
I'll go. Yeah, my goal was just to be present and to show that this isn't the right way. You know, obviously, we weren't going there to convert people or anything, like any of the rumors that went around and stuff like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
You mean we didn't sign souls away?

[Tommy Lavin]
No, we didn't sign souls away. We didn't take people's money. You know, none of that.

But it was to be present and to sort of plant a seed, in a sense, for somebody that the next time they're being hit, and let's call it what it is, they're being hit, it's not a gentle little swat, for them to maybe think, you know what, this isn't right. There's a better way to do this. And maybe the next generation says, no, we're not going to do that.

That was my goal.

[Lucy]
Yeah, I mean, also to add to that, also one of my goals was, although we were there to, obviously, support the children in that school and show them that you have a right of your autonomy, autonomy, but it was also like showing the parents that hypocrisy about that. We were standing there with a huge sign that says, our religion doesn't believe in hitting children. And we had so many drive-by parents that were flipping the bird at us and like, yelling, Jesus, Jesus is Lord and Jesus saved.

It was like, dude, do you actually read our sign? It's like, are you okay that your children in that school right now probably get hit by a teacher? It's like, do you think that is okay?

And it is just mind-boggling for me. And I think in my perspective, I achieved that goal just for being there for the kids and showing them, hey, we do have a right and we don't have to be punished for our normal bodily rights. And because I saw a lot of kids standing around and you could see that in their faces, they were like discussing it back and forth and like, should we go over there?

And then discussing is like, did you read the banner, what it says? Like, is that really true? And like, you could see them like thinking about that and talking about that.

And just because of that, it was so worth it going there.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. I think that was one of the interesting things is you would see the students gather on the sides around us. And I have to imagine it was an intimidating situation because the administrators were, the second half of the day, they were definitely out there.

They were observing things. So you got to figure in a school district where they know that corporal punishment is there, that there's this authoritative behavior, that they're going to be a little hesitant about approaching us. And some did.

Most didn't want to take any of the literature. I understand why maybe they don't want to bring that at home or what that could happen because of them bringing that home. But it was nice to see them at least curious and questioning what was happening.

[Lucy]
Yeah. Also, I mean, if they would like approach us, there were a lot of parents around. If their parents would see them going over to us and speak to us, they would probably get in trouble at home as well.

So I understand why not a lot of kids like approached us and came over to us. But I could actually see them talking about that and discussing what we are, why we are here for and what we are doing. And so definitely made them curious about that.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah. I really hope that we, you know, yeah, we had in total, I think, six students that approached us and, and, you know, took, some of them took brochures. I think most of them took student rights cards and stickers and pens, which we were offering, which was still, I think six is still a decent number.

I was really unsure how many would be, you know, want to, want to approach us given all the, you know, the fear mongering and the, the worry about, you know, facing anger from their parents or the school administrators for being, you know, even talking to us. But, you know, I hope we, we planted at the very least, you know, planted a seed within the community and the student body that, you know, will make them question and discuss going forward, whether, you know, the schools and the district's policy of corporal punishment is really ethical or wise or any of those things, because, you know, that's what we were there giving voice to.

[Lilin Lavin]
So, yeah. Absolutely. And I was there, there was some, I guess, video of an assembly that, well, audio of a video assembly that was released before we showed up where the principal essentially went out and said, you know, I don't want anyone showing up.

And this is paraphrasing. It's not the exact thing he said. I don't want people showing up because essentially we could get sued and I don't want to deal with that.

So, I was really glad for that because honestly, we didn't go there for confrontation, despite what they might think. So, that was fine for them to feel that way and not choose to be confrontational because that was the last thing. I would not have been constructive and we wouldn't have reached people the way we were able to, even just if they didn't speak to us, just seeing what we were there to do.

[Tommy Lavin]
My goal was to get good footage and to have some kind of visual record of what was going on, what was happening in case things went sideways because I didn't know how reliable the security situation was going to be, you know. And if we had the GoPros on us, at least that would have been a deterrent for anybody, you know, starting shit, you know, there being like an actual altercation because it's like, hey, you know, you're on candid camera, you know. And when the troll testers came out, you know, that's, I coined that term for him because the guy had, the guy with the scarf, he had, you know, he had his cell phone out.

So, he was obviously recording what was going on. But from the very beginning, it seemed like, okay, this guy might sincerely actually want information why we're here and why we're doing this and blah, blah, blah, you know. But then the conversation shifted, you know, obviously.

And I mean, I got a little bit of that recorded, you know, when he was going on about Catholics not being Christians. That was like cut off point. That was the I call bullshit point for me.

It was like, no, Catholics are Christians, you know. And it was kind of bizarre, bizarre conversation. And then he shifted it to, well, but y'all are for abortion and all this stuff.

And, you know, Tracy was saying, you know, yeah, that's a completely separate issue. So, it's like, I think I caught like maybe the tail end of that. But I wanted to get good footage because you know how it is with the actual news media.

They'll get a little snippet of something and then they'll just run with a little snippet of what somebody says or something and not show the big picture of what's going on, you know. And yeah, so, I wanted to at least be able to accomplish that, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
You did. And it was really great that you brought that stuff out because, like you said, you're able to do that. I think it is a bit of a deterrent.

And it was good to catch some of that conversation because it was bizarre to me. And I, a lot of you know, listening, I've been through physical violence, physical abuse as a child. And one of the things that this particular troll tester really tried to push was, well, they brought it on themselves.

It's their own fault. They deserve it. And that was so bizarre to me because when you're going through abuse as a child specifically, you don't know that there are other options.

You do believe that it's something that you may have brought on yourself, especially when it's reinforced that way. And that community, in large part, felt from what I saw. Obviously, I didn't meet everyone or see everyone.

But in that small group, there was a lot of support for that aggressive action. So, that's really difficult for me to understand and to support. I don't understand why you would want to continue that kind of cycle of abuse.

So, I am glad you caught that. It was a very odd mindset. But, yeah, I'm glad we were there doing what we did.

Yeah.

[Lucy]
Yeah. I just wanted to add to that. We heard from Eduardo that was kind of like, because his brother was in that high school or is in a high school.

And he told us that, like, was it the school director, correct me if I'm wrong, that he threw out those talking points about us just the day before. And that really shocked me. I was like, how can you do that?

It is even like, yeah, it's crazy.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah. If you listen to, there's a YouTube video that, well, it's just audio that Eduardo recorded at the school-wide meeting the day before where the principal is talking all about us being there. And yeah, he said that exact same thing that obviously the troll tester was just parroting that we believe in abortion.

And so, because we believe in abortion but are against corporal punishment, it's oxymoronic, which is just kind of, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to jump through to buy that. I mean, obviously, for those who truly believe that a fetus is a human being, I can see how that makes sense. But at the same time, it's just another excuse.

It's another whataboutism that they're using to draw attention away from the fact that that corporal punishment is cruel and unscientific and illogical. But at the same time, it's like you could flip that around. I could flip that around and say, well, if you care about unborn fetuses so much, how do you justify hitting children?

You know, it makes no sense. But yeah, it's pretty fascinating to listen to that audio of what the principal was saying to the community the night before. You know, I do respect and credit where credit's due that he strongly stood up for our First Amendment rights to be there.

And, you know, and also tried to use it as sort of like a learning opportunity for the student body that, oh, even though we, you know, don't, even if we might not agree with this group's beliefs, you know, it's very important that we respect their right to have those beliefs and to voice them, which I respected. But then he went into this whole, you know, misinformation about us wanting people to sign pieces of paper and asking students for money. And, you know, which is, I guess, to be expected.

[Tommy Lavin]
But... About him saying we were going to ask people for money is because he said, you know, like we do every week when we tie. So it's like, they're going to ask you for money because we ask you for money.

[Eliphaz Costus]
So it's okay if you're, it's okay for the church to ask you for money, but not okay for Satanists, which of course we weren't doing. Obviously, TST collects donations online, like, you know, any other organization, but yeah, that was really funny. And also, and I think one of the creepier things that he said, which I think you brought up before is that, you know, he was saying, he was saying, you know, you have a choice, like they're going to offer you this information that, you know, exempts you from corporal punishment, but you already have a choice and you can choose your SWATs or you can choose, you know, suspension, three-day suspension. But sometimes there, and this is just paraphrasing, sometimes there's things worse than taking your SWATs because too many unexcused absences, then, you know, your family has to pay a fine. So that was really kind of insidious to me, hearing that.

But yeah, pretty fascinating. Maybe we can link, if you want, you could link that video in the show notes or something so people can.

[Ty]
And I think it's important to note too, that the choices they're receiving, the punishment does not fit the crime. The school boasts very clearly about their zero incidents of violence from students on the campus. They've had no students bringing weapons on the campus.

So these are, they're using corporal punishments for parties, for dealing with students talking back to teachers. The students aren't doing these horrible things that even in my opinion, would still not justify the use of corporal punishment. But even from that perspective, it's not an eye for an eye here.

Like these are very minor things that these children are choosing to get, having to choose to get SWATs over. And like we said, it's not really even a truth.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. I guess that kind of goes into, you know, when you look back on this whole event, were there things that surprised or challenged you? I know we touched on that a bit.

Is there things that you encountered or things that you saw or things that you heard that challenged things that you walked into this with?

[Ty]
I think having a religious background myself, it was really hard seeing like who we've dubbed the trial testers coming in. Just the amount of arrogance that was brought in with that conversation, leading with your phone. There was even kind of like a smugness to their face.

They were really looking for a gotcha moment and not a discussion. And so that hit really hard because like I said, those are the people that at some point in my life I looked up to and really getting a different perspective of how, of how limited that perspective is and how being in such a sheltered place can really shift what you accept as normal and appropriate. And even who you idolize or who you look up to as heroic, because I know that they are going to take that message back to their conversations.

So people are going to praise them as heroes. And that's scary because it was really arrogant. It wasn't a discourse.

They were cutting people off. They were drilling a point that wasn't true with the people. They're telling them, hey, we don't believe these things that you say.

And yeah, I think that's what really shocked me is just really getting a kind of an uncomfortable glance in the mirror to past me and what my, what my life had been like. And I'm so thankful for the journey that I've come on. And this was definitely a big part of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.

Anybody else? All right. So I guess LFS, one of the questions I have for you is what do you feel like the next steps are for the Protect Children Project in your advocacy and what you're trying to accomplish with students' rights?

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah, that's definitely something I have to, to, to think about further and plan further because I feel like I've been, you know, working on this. Like all the, all the work I've been doing this year was sort of working toward and culminated in what we did last weekend. And yeah, I think if, if the, you know, the funding's available, I would love to keep doing these, these types of actions at different schools in Texas or around the country and in districts that, you know, are also exhibiting really high rates of corporal punishment or seclusion and restraint, you know, to raise awareness of that, that problem and raise awareness of Protect Children Project and TST's tools for combating it for, for members of the satanic temple. And yeah, so I'd love to replicate the same event again and keep it going.

And then, yeah, I'm going to be looking into other ways to, to push Protect Children Project forward. You know, I'd love to, you know, I got a shortly before our action, I got an email from someone in Texas who was a psychiatric nurse for the state hospital. And she was talking about, you know, witnessing restraints and injuries and seclusion of, of children in these hospitals that don't have parental advocates.

So I definitely, I'm going to try to follow up with her and have a meeting with her because that's something I'd really like to pursue is how we can help students in these, yeah, in these hospitals from and protect them as well from abuse of punishments.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. And for people that are interested in learning more and helping to support what it is that you're out there fighting to do, how can they find more information? And we will be sure to share some of the links and information, but how would they do that?

[Eliphaz Costus]
Oh, yeah, well, you can go to a short link you can go to is, is tst.link slash PCP, which is the, you know, Malcolm and Lucian love their, their inappropriate acronyms for the campaigns. So we're stuck with PCP, but that's okay. Gotta, gotta have some humor in this.

Yeah. But yeah, that'll take you right to the Protect Chosen Projects section in, you know, on the satanic temple.com website. That's our campaign page.

And there you can download the student rights card. And you can also if, and that's something that you can download and print out and then carry it with you in school. Or if you don't have access to a printer, you can email me directly at PCP at the satanic temple.com.

And I will personally mail you a physical copy, which I've done many, many times. Recently, since the announcement, I, my inbox was actually flooded with interested students and family members from all around the country who, you know, wanted to have a physical card mailed to them. And many, many more downloads as well.

So, so yeah, please get in touch if, you know, you're a student in school and maybe you just, maybe you just want to have a preemptive security by having a student rights card with you. Or maybe you're already, if you're already experiencing any of these punishments, then, you know, definitely reach out to me and get one to protect yourself. Or maybe you're a parent or a guardian of a student in school and you're worried about them being, facing some of these, you know, any of the punishments I mentioned before.

And I'll also send you a card and more information.

[Lilin Lavin]
Fantastic. I mean, I can't thank you guys enough for being part of this and for what all of you did. I mean, we drove many, many, I mean, Texas is a huge state.

Some of us drove 10, 11, 12 hours just to do this. And it was worth every minute. Don't get me wrong.

So I have such appreciation and respect for all of you. It was wonderful for those who I never got to actually interact with like this, just being there and the warmth and the strength that everyone brought to this was amazing to be a part of. So I definitely want to thank all of you for that.

But in closing, is there anything else you guys would like to share about this experience or what you're looking forward to next? I'll go.

[Lucy]
I just want to add to that. I was like, yeah, I can't just extend what you said. It was just like a great trip.

Great seeing friends again and like hanging out and just doing what we're doing. And like, it just also makes this huge bond between us. And that's what I love about TST in the whole that you always, no matter where you go, you have friends all around the globe now with all the congregations around.

And so, and just like the community is so great and I'm so grateful for being a part of it. And also at that point, I also want to give a shout out to B that can't be with us, but was on a trip with us and was such a huge help and support and everything. So yeah, we love you B.

Thank you for coming with us as well.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, B was awesome. I just keep remembering the one student, the girl that was like, I can't believe y'all actually came. You could just see the happiness on her face.

And for me, that was pretty much worth the whole trip. It was just, we made somebody's day.

[Lilin Lavin]
The family came up, I believe it was her uncle and some other members. And they did, they had huge smiles on their face, almost disbelief and relief. And it was really amazing to see that reflected in people when I really didn't expect it.

And it was so beautiful to find it in this place. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And also Eduardo kind of shared those sentiments too, because when we were talking to him, when it leaked that we would be there when the superintendent or whoever put two and two together, that it's actually, you know, the Protect Children Project is with TST and what TST is, he was like, I looked for over an hour to confirm that it was y'all that were coming. And I'm like, yeah, because in this sort of thing, you know, Dumas is out there, right? It's near Amarillo and no one really goes to Amarillo unless you're, you know, going through Route 66 or, you know, it does have like a major medical center too for that area, but you don't, people don't just go to Amarillo.

Right. And so it got, I kind of, I like the fact that it, it, it kind of puts people on their toes as to like, if they show up here, where are they going to show up next?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. We're okay to mess with Texas and do that in a small town.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'm looking forward to more events where I can bring my horses because, you know, it's my forte. Yes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yes. They're always appreciated. And there's nothing more impressive to my listeners out there than a quite tall gentleman with a lovely suit of armor and a beautiful satanic banner and a gorgeous horse standing there with you as a group to say, no, we're, we're seriously here and probably not somebody that you want to discount.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah. I sent a, you know, a follow-up email to the superintendent and principal and chief quirk of the, the Dumas ISD police force and just, you know, thanking them for, you know, being so receptive to us being there and for protecting us and respecting our first amendment rights. I also, you know, urged them to consider removing corporal punishment from their, their district policy.

I gave specific reasons why and also provided them with some, you know, some good resources to, to learn, to research more about the issue and, and the science behind why it's harmful. And I, I also mentioned that, you know, if they decide not to end corporal punishment in their district, there's a good chance they can expect to see us again next year. So they're, they're aware.

Yeah. I also want to mention that I think it was great to see that the, you know, the principal and the superintendent, even if they had some wrong ideas about who we were, they were still, you know, good people and, you know, respectful to us. And, you know, it's just that they're, they're very misguided in, in how they're applying this, this policy.

They're not, they're not bad people in any way. They're just, just terribly misguided in, you know, continuing to, to use this archaic form of discipline. And last, last thing I want to mention a shout out to someone who I haven't mentioned before, but for racist Jose from TST, New York, who actually volunteered for me over the summer and helped me collect all of the data from every school district in, in Texas that still uses corporal punishment, which is a lot of districts.

And they, yeah, they, they helped me put all that data together, which led me to being able to find Dumas as the school with one of the worst records. So big thanks to them. I think maybe it'd be cool to read this, you know, to read this quote from Eduardo actually wrote us a whole statement, written statement about his experience there.

And at the end, he, he wrote, which just really, again, touched me. He said, when members of the satanic temple demonstrated in my hometown yesterday, it meant something to me, but not only me, but also the harmless child in me that had to live in such an inhumane environment that is Dumas ISD. I will forever remember the courage of TST members.

Thank you. So that's, that's from his own own words. Yeah, I had such a great time, you know, especially after we, we got it done and the relief of having it done and just being able to celebrate with you all, because I think, yeah, finding joy in your activism is so important for, you know, maintaining the energy to keep going.

Exactly. Thank you all so much for your, for your efforts and driving such long distances.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was really a pleasure. And, you know, that's something I think I want to make sure people understand that while we do advocate and we do go out there and do things like this, it is just an expression of our deeply held religious beliefs, because we do so strongly believe in standing against arbitrary authority. And there's nothing more of an example of that than people that are using corporal punishment and that absolute ever-present threat of violence in these situations.

So. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Well, I want to thank all of y'all for taking a little time out on your, your weekend. Oh, wait, Lucy, you get your hand up.

Go for it. Go for it.

[Lucy]
Yeah. I just want to say one thing quickly, again, it was like, I also want to bleed with the Dumas High School and not getting rid of their cool logo, the demons or like mascot, the demons, although like the evangelicals are trying to get rid of it now, because they think there was a reason why we chose that. So please don't get rid of it.

It is so cute. And we all thought they're like nice little verse from there. I was like, it is really cool.

Please, please stick with it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes.

[Eliphaz Costus]
Yeah. Hail Dumas Demons. Hail Dumas Demons.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Having the demon as your mascot had nothing to do with the reason why Satanic Temple showed up. It could have been the Dumas teddy bears and we still would have absolutely shown that to them.

It was definitely icing on the cake, though. Yeah. It was definitely a happy accident.

Yeah. It was, it was hitting the children. So let's, let's, you know.

Stick to the point.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
For the evangelicals out there trying to change that.

[Lilin Lavin]
But like everybody said, you know, they were, everyone there was professional. The head of the Dumas police for school for Dumas ISD, they were wonderful. They were very aware of what was going on.

They paid attention. They made sure that our rights to do this kind of expression were respected. And I think that was something else we brought to that school.

None of these students may not have ever seen, or may not see again, this type of enactment of their constitutional rights. So we did stand and show them how that works. Yep.

All right, everyone.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, again, thanks for joining us. This was a really awesome podcast to put together. And we should, yeah, we should do more like this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. Hail you guys. Hail Protect Children Project.

And Hail Satan.