Ep.21: Satanic Don't Panic - Old Ghosts in New Guises

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.21: Satanic Don't Panic - Old Ghosts in New Guises

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today we are going to be talking about the Satanic Panic. What's that you say, the Satanic Panic?

The Satanic Panic ended in like the 80s and 90s, right? Not so much. Not so much.

There is definitely a resurgence, pretty strong resurgence, actually. It's a little bit different than, you know, what they went after in the 80s and 90s, which were like daycare teachers and, you know, things like that, families, you know, with all sorts of...

[Lilin Lavin]
Kindra Right. And they also had a lot of unscrupulous professionals who were happy to coerce children into making a lot of negative false claims, things that couldn't be proven, just things that were outlandish. I know the McMartins pop up in my head immediately because of just how much they suffered.

They lost everything. And these individuals were, as I understand it, actually religious, Christian individuals. And so, no one is beyond the reach of this type of behavior.

And the majority of it, if not all of it, is driven by conspiracy theories.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yes. You know, if you look at QAnon and the type of stuff they put out there, all the way from the Satanic Pizza Parlor or Pizzagate or whatever the hell that was called, you know, where they've got a dungeon beneath it, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Kindra Like, for instance, because I live in Texas, and so these things are ever present, especially since I'm a very public Satanist. You're a very public Satanist. You know, we have a family.

Dan and Fran Keller, they served 21 years in prison for a supposed Satanic abuse, none of which was ever, ever, ever verified. They were given a 48-year sentence for sexual assault during the Satanic Panic. Fran Keller is now 63.

They were released on bond in 2013. No, so not 63. Back in 2013, so 73.

So, they were released on bond in 2013. And again, 21 years for nothing. They were both accused of being involved in some kind of Satanic sexual ritual abuse that some kind of behavioral sessions, the same sort of stuff we talked about, they were coerced into saying certain things that Daniel Keller had spanked this child, and it was just all these really bizarre things.

Nothing was ever validated. There was no confirmation of any type of abuse, because obviously, if any of that stuff had happened, I would not be, you know, talking about them in a positive, like, they finally got out, this is something that they went through, it was traumatic. But these individuals were kept in jail, found guilty of aggravated sexual assault of a child with zero evidence, even though the girl at the center of the case recanted their claims later.

They actually went, and they recanted their claims in court. 21 freaking years of their life gone. Darrell Bock Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And at the heart of it, the people putting out these conspiracy theories, they're using the same methods. They're putting children as a, and this time around, they're targeting drag queens, they're targeting transgender, they're targeting history teachers, librarians, they're targeting, you know, arts, yeah, anything that's sort of gender, and, you know, what they consider- Jennifer Allies, anything they say is gender nonconforming.

[Lilin Lavin]
So, even allies of what they consider gender nonconforming, they're saying horrible things. I mean, I've seen video after video, actual video of people on the pulpit calling for very horrible things for parents of, supporting loving parents of kids that are transgender, supporting loving parents of LGBTQ kids in general. Anyone that's supportive of this is seen as an abhorrent criminal.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock And I hate to use the word smart with these people, but their attack is an intelligent way to go. But they know that when they use, but what about the children? You know, when they know they use children, it makes it very hard for people to, you know, if you argue against it, it looks like you're okay with abusive children, even though the abuse isn't happening.

You know, it's anybody who's been around Satanists, and now we've got, you know, you've got Church of Satan, you've got Temple of Set, you've got the Satanic Temple, you know, there's now a lot of Satanic institutions, and all of them, all of them are like, you know, that's rule number one. No, you cannot touch a child.

[Lilin Lavin]
That child can't consent. Jennifer Luciferian temples, people who are actual theistic Satanists, a lot of them have it's the same sort of, everything revolves around consent, everything revolves around respective bodily autonomy, understanding that people under 18 don't have the mental acuity to consent to religious participation. These are things that from every interaction I've had with a variety of Satanists, these are the common foundational beliefs.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Right, right. These are like foundational, and they are strictly adhered to. If people, you know, were to break these rules, that would be, they'd be out, you know, turned into the police, I'm sure.

You know, I've never run into a situation where I've met an actual Satanist that ever broke any of these rules.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jennifer Luciferian No, no, but the thing is that the people that often, like the McMartins, like these other individuals, like another gentleman from, unfortunately again, Texas, 30 years, 30 years in jail, this individual spent, his name was Melvin Quinney, 74 years old before they finally got out of jail, just this year, just this year. Darrell Bock You lose your whole freaking life over a conspiracy theory. Jennifer Luciferian Everything, gone.

There was, there was four women in San Antonio who were gay. Back when, you know, it was still, it's not that it's much more acceptable in a lot of ways, it is, there's tons more community, but there's still a lot of very obviously negative things going on. Darrell Bock Especially in Texas.

[Tommy Lavin]
Jennifer Luciferian Especially in Texas.

[Lilin Lavin]
Darrell Bock And Florida and some of the southern states. So four San Antonio women were falsely accused of sexually assaulting young girls in 1994. And although their convictions, the convictions were expunged, and it was in Bexeter County, if you guys want to look it up, these individuals, there was a lot of claims made against them, same kind of thing.

The same kind of things were being said. And there was also always associated with some kind of a culty crap. These are individuals that had nothing to do with the occult.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, I know, they just, they put that branding of Satanism or the occult on them. And then all of a sudden, they're bad people. And the reason why we wanted to talk about this today is because we're definitely seeing a resurgence of the satanic panic.

I mean, just the way that these radicalized Christians are approaching Satanist, pagans, anybody that just doesn't conform to their set of beliefs is sort of being labeled. I mean, the last episode, we kind of talked about the last event we went to and the protesters and shit that were out there. And I laugh because it's so ridiculous.

This guy had a sign that he could have just written everybody on it. Because he even had like, sports fanatics. You know, I mean, it was like- Yeah, I mean, basically, anything you can think of was crammed onto this sign as you're going to hell if you do this.

And I wish these were isolated incidents.

[Lilin Lavin]
I wish- Well, I will say, because we went to, it was three in total that we participate in. One of them, it was a very hot time of year. So, I'm not surprised it wasn't strongly protested, although the protesters did still show up.

But you know, the last one for the that we went to, that one was heavily protested. And so much so, I believe, some of these folks came down from Nacogdoches. I don't know how much, you know, people know about Texas.

It's a very large state. Nacogdoches is not very close. So, these people felt so compelled, mostly because, unfortunately, the Satanic temple was there, but also because they see pagans as these horrible, demonic people that are corrupting society.

So, it's not just that we were there. They were against it anyway. But it helps, unfortunately, that we were there because they see us as the ultimate way, you know, that we are exactly in the opposite of what they're doing.

And we're there to take souls and harm children and all this crap that you heard during the Satanic Panic. So, definitely, they expressed it. The Polk County Pagan, they put out a really good article.

It included the videos. It included the pictures. We'll try to share it when we put this out.

But this information, it shows you it's ramping up. And it wasn't just that event. There were events in other parts of the United States.

And there have been events outside the United States. But there were events right around the Halloween, Samhain period of time, one in Massachusetts in the Salem area, one in Florida, I believe. And in both cases, the people coming to protest were incredibly pushy.

They were semi-radicalized statements being, no, I won't say semi. They were radicalized statements being made, violent rhetoric being made. The one in Salem, they brought a, I want to say it was about a five, six foot cross, a big wooden cross that they could barely even hold properly themselves.

They put people at the event at risk. They, you know, the people did a beautiful job about keeping things going and keeping everyone safe. But again, this is becoming more and more prevalent.

These people are not showing love. They're not showing any kind of respect. They're not showing any respect for anyone in these interactions.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And you see it bleeding over into politics and things like that. And that's where it gets scary.

Because now it's not just a small group of crazy people that are shouting stuff. Now you have politicians. You have movements like QAnon that I was reading an article on the current satanic panic.

And I think they kind of did a poll or something like that to see how many people in America believed some of the things that QAnon was saying. And it was like 16 percent. And it was like, holy shit, that's a lot of people that are buying into these radicalized conspiracy theories.

And that's where all of this sort of lives. It lives in that world of conspiracy theories and children and all of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's a good documentary that covers the prevalence of this issue in Canada. It's called Satan Wants You. They go into some of the satanic panic and things that happen up in that region as well.

So it's not localized just to the United States.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, not just to the southern states that you would think like Texas and Florida. I mean, as you were talking about, this one happened in Massachusetts. That's definitely not a heavy Republican state.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was a small group. Well, it was a small group of people I don't believe were from there. I'm trying to look for the resource.

But I believe these people actually came in from elsewhere. And just with the intent to cause havoc and disrupt these people, they had a lot of very, very violent rhetoric that were mentioned in their YouTube and other areas. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And social media has kind of taken the satanic panic this time. And I would almost say put it on steroids in a way. Because you spend time on social media and you just see this horrible stuff being passed around.

Everything from, you know, marital rape is okay. Or, I'm sorry, there's no such thing as marital rape.

[Lilin Lavin]
Which, believe it or not, this was still not being protected. Women were still not being protected in marriages into the 90s. There were places well into the late 90s where this was kind of an overlooked issue.

So marital rape is definitely a thing. It's real. Anytime a person says no, whether it's a male or female, that means no.

And just because you're married, it doesn't mean you get to override their personal rights.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you don't get ownership over the person's body by getting married. But somehow in all of these little things, I get it, you've got your different ideology and this and that. But when something doesn't go their way, it's the power of Satan.

And it's Satan drawing you in and this is satanic. Oh, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
We've covered this in another episode, though, where it's not Satanist. It's not people that are part of these different communities that are asking for harmful things. I cannot say with certainty that it doesn't ever happen, because I'm sure there are things that I would rather people not say, but that happens in every group.

The loud outcry of negative things, like we've talked about in Texas, for example, in Oklahoma, for example. We have people in government that are elected officials arguing that corporal punishment must remain available because the Bible says that this is how one raises a child, according to the Bible. I don't know if they understand the separation powers.

They probably do, but they don't care. I don't care what the Bible says about these type of treatment of children. We know scientifically that harming children causes changes in their brain.

It causes long-term trauma. It causes damage. It is not a useful tool.

It is not a tool. It's not something that parents, and especially not strangers, should be using on children.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock No, and one of the other telltale signs that we're moving back into this sort of satanic panic atmosphere is all these book burnings, CD burnings, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Angela Brinkman Freaking history books. What the flip?

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, I mean, but there was a call from a lot of pastors and these really extreme Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists around Halloween that the people, the members of their congregation, or anybody they know, they should try and grab their neighbors and stuff like that, and they should clean their house out of all things that could be satanic. Now, like a normal person thinks, oh, okay, maybe that means like a Slayer album. But no, no, they're talking about if you have music that isn't sung by a Christian band, that is satanic, and it's Satan, you know, reaching into your soul.

[Lilin Lavin]
Angela Brinkman I get concerned when these things happen. We talked about this the other episode when we talked about Greg Sock, I mean, Locke, that he was asking people to grab things from inside their home to burn at the recent anti-Halloween crapload bullcrap they were trying to do. And it struck me, and it still strikes me as dangerous and harmful, because you've got things that people are deeming demonic.

And it could be a book, it could be pictures, it could be shirts, it could be whatever, you know, you name it, and they can do it. I've had people within my own family say that certain colors are satanic, and that they don't belong, you know, they won't make things with it, they won't have things with it, which, I mean, great for you, but it's a little extra, you know?

[Tommy Lavin]
Greg Sock Yeah, this incident, I won't go into all the details, but our oldest daughter asked a member of our family to, not our immediate family, not any of our kids, but the extended family, to knit them just a blanket, because that was something that- Angela Brinkman Because they're incredibly skilled, and they offered to make something. They offered to make her a blanket, and she said, can you make me a blanket that's black, purple, and orange? Greg Sock This is for her fiancé.

Yeah. Didn't say anything about Halloween, nothing like that, just said because her birthday's in October, can you make me a black, purple, and orange? And it came back to, no, those are satanic.

I can't make a blanket that color. I mean, if you're assigning Satanism and demons to black, purple, and orange, you have crossed over. Again, we're really crossing over into that satanic panic sort of behavior, these conspiracies and all of that sort of shit going on.

[Lilin Lavin]
Angela Brinkman And it's to the point where the recent market that we participate in, a lot of these vendors, they work other jobs as well. So, this is something that they're either trying to launch a business or already have a business, or this is something that they do in addition to. And it was bad enough that some folks, and these individuals in particular were not part of the state, came and left reviews on their shops.

And the reviews were not very nice. I mean, we're talking about one of these people wrote, they're wicked hellbound servants of Satan. Stop corrupting children.

Shame on these adults for doing this to children. Your home will be hell if you don't repent and believe in Jesus Christ. What in the what?

I mean, and then we have Girl Scouts. We talked about one of the really cool kiddos that we got to hang out with. Is there no low the Girl Scouts won't go to?

Like, this is a response. Showing up to a pluralistic event and hanging out with other kids and having a good time makes them bad. There was a lot of really gross things that were, they're attacking people at so many levels.

And you're just seeing it more and more.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock And that is, it is a huge concern because in my opinion, in my personal opinion, to me, it feels like this is just really getting started. You know, I've been watching it ramp up for the last few years, but it continues to get more extreme. The attacks come more frequently.

They are attacking these groups, many groups that are, you know, they already struggle because society is not necessarily nice. And now they're getting this extra level of attack. And it's happening more frequently.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it's hard because as someone that is publicly aligned with Satanism, when I want to support individuals or organizations or groups, I have to be careful about how much I even attempt to do that. Because what I don't want to do is give them additional stigma and burden of having Satanism, which they're going to already be told they associate with. If people see any kind of influence from me as a confirmation that they are in fact, Satanic.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that's the sad part. We should, like any other religion, be able to just support a cause, whether that's women's rights, LGBTQ+, whatever cause it is that we want to support. But because of who we are, sometimes they throw that extra label on there to say, aha, see, this confirms that they are Satanic.

[Lilin Lavin]
We told you. That happened to me where Texas GOP has an account on Twitter. Yes, I am still calling Twitter.

I don't care. They still have an account. They have the account there.

You're welcome to go look them up. They say a lot of really negative, hateful things. And at the time, they were pushing for the anti-trans bills that would affect transgender children in schools and transgender healthcare to provide care for youth.

And for me, this is very troublesome because a lot of trans youth are incredibly vulnerable. Some of them do not have support at home, but those who do are being treated horribly, and their parents are being treated horribly. And I was really wanting to push back against it because I feel strongly that it's a very hateful, horrible thing for anyone to have a stance on taking away from kids' care.

And schools are not magically bussing kids away to have them transitioned during school time. That is not a thing that happens. Nurses are not transitioning students.

And social transitioning, where they're trying different names, where they're being more open with who they are as far as their identity. Exploring. Exploring who they are.

But even just finally having the courage to just publicly be who they always have been, but not been confident enough to share. So, this is a very delicate but dangerous period for them because they're putting themselves out there, and it takes so much strength to just make that. And then schools are being told to tell parents, and odds are if their parents don't know this yet, that there's a reason behind that.

And you're putting kids at risk, and you don't care about children. You just care about pushing an agenda. And so, I did very publicly, very vocally push back against this with not only the Texas GOP account, but some of the people that were proponents of this.

And they also pushed back on me and made some very ugly statements. But the Texas GOP in particular grabbed my account, my picture is in the account, and the fact that I'm a satanic minister. They put this, and they put this out there on their public platform.

And they said, aha, see, it's a satanic minister. This proves that this is a satanic-inspired thing. We're on the right side of it.

And I felt I was just so crestfallen because that was not my goal. I just really wanted to champion this movement that it cannot be allowed to assault children. They're harming children.

But all they saw was satanism. And so, they blocked me, whatever. I reported them.

I hope that's why they blocked me because I, as a person, have a First Amendment right to share, which they're very much proud of until it comes to things like this. And then they did block me, which that's fine. Fuck them.

I don't want to see them anyway. But I have a right as a citizen of the state to push back against things that affect my fellow community.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And it is, like you said, that situation right there just kind of highlights because we're in a catch-22. Yes, as Satanists, we want to help and we want to defend anybody that we can that's being abused or taken advantage of in this sort of a way.

[Lilin Lavin]
But when we do, then sometimes, we foreshadow the actual event and we become confirmation that what they are doing or who they are is, in fact, everything that they've told people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And so, I mean, I've definitely come to a place where I just, I understand that I can't, as a Satanist, be very vocal on certain things in social media, which sucks. But in other things, I absolutely still continue to because it is still me and my account. But it sucks because as much as I want to do these things, I have a passion for personal freedoms and things like abortion.

I speak out against it again. Now, it's just confirmation that Satan's sacrificing babies. It's not that I, as a female with capability or that me as a person that believes other people with reproductive capability should have a right to have a say over what happens to their body.

Nope. Nope. It's just me wanting to sacrifice babies.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And look, because they're a Satanist, that confirms it. I don't know.

I kind of look at it a little bit different because of how much we are in the public now. I will say, I believe this is the difference between the Satanic panic and the one in the 80s and the 90s. In the 80s and the 90s, there wasn't as many vocal Satanists that would actually interact with the community.

You know, Michael Aquino, yes, went on Oprah and went on, you know, Geraldo.

[Lilin Lavin]
And even what I, well, I don't necessarily agree with certain things that LeVay extolled. He did also very publicly stand up and show that there was this other side to Satanism. He was very outspoken.

He did a lot of community events. He did a lot of really good things that pushed through boundaries too. So, there were people out there that were putting a different face on it, that were brave enough to stand up against the incredible backlash.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I just think now where we have, you know, TST is so public with what they do, that even though people might not necessarily agree with our ideology, we do get a lot of people that come up to us and say, you know what, we love what you do. You know, we used to think Satanists were this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Enter a stereotype here. Yeah. Enter whatever stereotype there.

And because we see you all active, we see what you're doing, and we're able to just easily walk up and talk to you, we have a totally different view on Satanists. That doesn't make them a, you know, and they'll be like, you know, we're not a Satanist, but we've taken those stereotypes and sort of thrown them in the trash. And so, yes, the radicals are always going to be there.

The problem is, you know, with them infiltrating politics and the lawmakers, it becomes a little bit dangerous with what they want to do. But I think the public face of Satanism is a lot different than the public face of Satanism in the 80s and 90s, you know, where they were like, oh, play the record backwards. You know, and that's stupid shit.

You know, they're past that part, but now we have social media.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I've heard a lot of different people talk about this and have different opinions on the individual, but the new Speaker of the House, who people say is much calm and blah, blah. This is an extremist. Yes.

There's no, I don't care how friendly he seems or how nice he dresses or if his demeanor seems, you know, amicable and calm. I disagree. I understand how people may see that because he does have a certain presence about him.

But the concern here is people like David Barton. Maybe you don't know who David Barton is. David Barton is an activist who believes that there should be no separation of church and state.

Please look him up. But he is very close with our new Speaker. And this individual, Mike Johnson, is a big champion of some of the more extremist mentalities and things.

And now with his position, the concern is that these causes on the conservative side will become much, much more valid, and they'll have a lot more weight behind them, and they'll have a lot more opportunity to do these things. So when you start looking at the legality of the encroachments on the First Amendment, on the separation of church and state, now the lines begin to blur.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yep. They've been blurring, and they're blurring even more. At some point, my fear is that at some point, we're going to wake up, because the way that they've been doing this with Project Blitz and Project 2025, all these little attacks here and there, pass this small little bill here, pass this small little bill there, pass this small little bill here, we're going to wake up one day and we're going to be like, holy shit, we live in a theocracy.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn Well, and I wish it was a far-fetched idea. I really do. I do not like talking about it.

I do feel like I don't want to ever come across as fear-mongering, which is not what I'm trying to do at all. I want to make sure people are aware. We've got people building virtual border walls and actual border walls between United States states.

[Tommy Lavin]
So states… Darrell Bock Between Texas and New Mexico.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn Right now.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock It's not a border wall between Texas and Mexico. They are building a wall between Texas and New Mexico. So last time I checked, even though New Mexico has the word Mexico in it, it is still part of the United States.

It is a legitimate state within the United States. And we're not supposed to be boarding or walling up our states.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn Right. So that was, they said it's because there's an area that they're just concerned about because of people that are entering. But I have to tell you, that's a weird excuse to me considering.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Especially considering that they're doing these also virtual walls on the highway junctions.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn Right. So I think it's four counties, with one in Lubbock being the largest, that now have tattletale laws. That's what they are.

They're civil lawsuits. Some people have different opinions on them, but I have to tell you, I feel that they are toothless for all extents and purposes because of the fact that first, someone has to know why you're traveling through. Which, what are you doing?

Like, hey guys, it's an awesome day. I'm on my way from my abortion to Mexico. Darrell Bock Going to get an abortion, yeah.

Jessica Flynn So I mean, if you're not out there doing that or wearing a giant shirt, like, you know, then no one's going to know. But the other issue is it can't be against a pregnant individual. It can only be against those assisting.

And when I say assisting folks, they're going down to even if you contributed a dollar for them to go to lunch. On this trip. So, you know, it's stupid.

And it's just fear. It is fear mongering. They are trying to make you too afraid to help someone who needs to get an abortion.

And the reason being is they've now assigned it as human trafficking. They are saying that it's, you know, all these really screwed up things. And...

Darrell Bock They call it pregnancy trafficking or something like that.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, it's, again, they attach that trafficking word to...

[Lilin Lavin]
drag someone somewhere because you feel like they have to have an abortion, excuse me, and you're trying to force that on someone. Well, that's wrong. Jessica Flynn Yeah.

Darrell Bock You have no business ever telling someone that they should do that or force them into a situation like that. Whether or not an individual wants to end their pregnancy or continue their pregnancy is a private personal decision between them and them alone. They can talk with medical professionals, they can include family members, they can even include the person with whom, you know, the pregnancy began.

But at end of the day, that decision begins and ends with the person carrying the pregnancy. Jessica Flynn And it has nothing to do with Satan. Darrell Bock It has nothing to do with Satan.

But, you know, when we're talking about this, you have to be able to prove a damage. Jessica Flynn Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
What is the damage that you caused?

[Lilin Lavin]
Jim, Joe... Darrell Bock Shirley Q at the gas station when you stopped to gas your car on the way. Or, you know, Bob that saw you going through and then that person they looked a little pregnant to them and they felt concerned.

I mean, what happened to them? So this is where it begins to fall apart. It's a civil suit only.

And it cannot go after the pregnant person directly. And even if they are taking down license plates, which stupid for them, because I guarantee you folks, if you're listening, look up the counties participating and please try not to spend a single freaking penny in those counties. Because this is a choice that they're making.

And sometimes, you know, bullshit walks, money talks. Darrell Bock Choices have consequences. Jessica Flynn You know, if you're traveling to New Mexico, Colorado, or any of the places where you have to take these routes through, be sure to let them know that you don't appreciate their choices.

And maybe when they get to vote next, they'll keep that in mind because they depend on people that are traveling through these regions for financial security.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock They've targeted the highway junctions. And, you know, and that's typically where people pull off to get gas and get to eat and get a motel room.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn This comes back to the religious extremism and the satanic panic because they try to put it all together as some kind of joint venture that Satan's involved in all these things. And, you know, it just gets past the point of ludicrous. Darrell Bock It really does.

[Tommy Lavin]
And again, so, you know, satanic panic, for me, and I did a little googling out there too, just to see, am I just crazy on this?

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Flynn Overreacting.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, am I overreacting? Or do I feel alone? And now there are a lot of articles out there talking about the resurgence of the satanic panic.

And they're not like from, you know, wackadoodle sites or anything like this. There's people that are giving their stories. And there's even some people in these articles, or I should say some authors of these articles that were like, hey, I went through the satanic panic the first time.

And I actually busted up my tapes in a parking lot, you know, because it wasn't from God, you know, and it was like, so I busted up all of my tapes, and, you know, I burned these other books. And then all that ended. And I thought, okay, well, cool, we're done with that.

And, you know, yes, I realize history repeats itself. But they were like, damn, I didn't think it would repeat itself that soon. And they're like, you know, there's just no denying that this is definitely a second coming.

Now, I don't know if the satanic panic ever truly ended. Maybe it went underground for a little while. But there is definitely a resurgence.

So, you know, one way or the other, and it is driven by these fundamental evangelical Christian nationalists, extremists, yes. And, you know, sort of America's version of the Taliban, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jared Polin Essentially, I mean, I have seen wackadoodly stuff. Women should be completely covered when they go to the gym. Women should always do what it is their husband demands of them.

You know, like, we as women shouldn't be allowed to vote. It goes on and on and on and on. It's just nauseating.

And it all comes down to just another version of extremism. How far and how long do we let it go before we start pushing back and recognizing the danger of where we're heading? I have to, again, remind people, Middle East, not all the countries were the way they are today.

Quite a few of them were incredibly progressive. People looked very much just like us. They hung out on college campuses.

They had very fun lives. Women drove to places. Voting was a very normal, routine thing.

Darrell Bock They wore miniskirts. Katie Grant Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, it was Darrell Bock And this isn't like, you know, a century ago. This was in like the 70s.

[Lilin Lavin]
Katie Grant Yeah. And all of a sudden, slowly but surely, the same type of extremism kept pushing and pushing and pushing. And now women cannot drive.

Women cannot vote. Women have very little right of control over their lives at all. Many cannot even go to school.

And I'm not talking about college. I am talking about general school. Darrell Bock Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Anybody in the LGBTQ community, it's a death sentence in some of these regions. I mean, I partially understand the way that Jimbo Christian kind of thinks, oh, well, yeah, we'll bring America back to its morals and its ethics. It's a lot of reliving how they saw America as they were growing up.

And it's this fear of change. People have an inherent fear of change. They just don't like change.

[Lilin Lavin]
Katie Grant Right. And I personally feel like all this nonsense really comes down to fear. And it's fear of death.

It's fear of loss. It's fear of change. It's fear of just natural things we all are afraid of.

If I was to sit there and tell you I'm not afraid of dying, that would be a lie. I'm not going to disagree with the fact that it's going to happen. I'm under no false pretenses that I'm going to be any of that stuff.

But I'm not afraid of death. I'm just afraid, what will it be like? The process sounds scary.

And it is. But I'm under no false idea that I go to some magical, mystical place where all my family members are waiting to hang out with me. And that's difficult for people to understand.

Because a lot of them don't want that. And I get it. It's like a coping mechanism on a lot of different levels.

Some people are very much traumatic, they lose a child or someone that was very close to them. And I understand the desire to hold on to the hope that that person is not gone forever. I'm not shitting on that.

I totally understand when you're dealing with that kind of trauma, why that makes sense. I just personally don't feel like that's the true process. And if it is great for them, I'm fine with not participating in that particular trip.

But I just feel like the fear of loss, the fear of things ending is a strong impetus behind a lot of this push.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's a fear of loss. It's a fear of things ending. And it's also a fear of being insignificant in the big picture.

Because when you die, you know, and say, nothing happens to you the way that we believe, you know, you die. That's it. Nothing happens to you.

You're not going to this magical realm. There's no Sky Daddy or anything like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's no Satan that's gonna- You just made some religious folks have to take a shot.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. There's no Satan. We're not, you know, people like us aren't being dragged down to this burning pit of whatever, where we're tormented for our whole life.

It just ends. It just ends. And the part that makes you insignificant is the world moves on.

Right. That's how it's supposed to work. That's how it's always worked.

It's the way, maybe if you're somebody famous, maybe if you've done something, you know, really cool, people will remember you by and in a way, you gain a bit of immortality that way. You know, like people remember Jim Morrison, people remember, you know, some of these famous people that did things. And in a sense, they're immortalized in that way.

But they're not like hanging around or anything like that. And I guess our dog has a comment on this.

[Lilin Lavin]
As usual.

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't know if that was an agreeance or a disagreeance.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't know.

[Tommy Lavin]
All dogs go to heaven, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
That's what the movie said. I don't know. That was a crazy movie.

But I think what it comes down to is we're recognizing the fact that there are very strong real roots behind a lot of this. And that people aren't wrong to try and cope with their discomfort, whatever way that they see fit. When it becomes a problem is when they say schools have to participate when they say our court system has to mandate other human beings that do not agree with these beliefs has to participate.

So, how an individual or a group of individuals choose to deal with these fears, normal things, that's not my concern. It becomes a problem when we're jailing people, when they're demonizing people, when they're jailing people, when they're taking away rights.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, all of that sort of stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
When they're rolling back rights that have been longstanding and then they keep projecting that they're foreshadowing a lot of different things. They believe women should lose voting rights. They believe women should not be able to participate in different things.

It doesn't just stop with women. Men who don't fall in line with Christian ideals and values should be removed from the gene pool is a comment I've seen. I mean, it's a very scary comment because how are you going to do that exactly?

Well, a little bit of imagination and you get a pretty ugly picture about what they're really saying. So, these kinds of things are dangerous. They're harmful.

And if you look at, again, I've read the Bible. A lot of people say, well, have you even read the book? Yeah, several times, several different ways, different versions, because I mean, between the King James and the NIV, there's so many different Bibles.

You get a lot of different things. Mormon Bible, Jehovah's Witnesses, there are a lot of differences. Oh, the MAGA version is coming out.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, thank you. Yeah. So, Jesus is in red, Trump is in orange.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's a joke, right? Yeah. Okay.

I mean, I never know anymore. There's an actual book that talks about how in the Bible, there was another. So, Jesus was one of the people that were foretold, but then there was a King of Men.

And supposedly, like, they extolled Trump as that biblical, yeah. So, you know, as much as I figured you were joking, I never know anymore. I was like, wait, please, please be kidding.

But they do have one that I find really funny. You can look it up. The cover has the We the People on it.

And I was like, one moment, please. Processing, this does not compute. So, it's just crazy.

And I think, you know, we have that event. Maybe it was a little more on the forefront of our mind. But as the days passed, I began to see other people faced these same things.

Other events were interrupted. And I then began to be a little bit more concerned about what I was seeing. Not that I haven't been, but in regards to the way that satanic panic error was really much more reviving.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, and not just that Halloween, right? When I was a kid, Halloween, almost the entire street was lit up, you know, everybody had their porch light on. And there was that one house, you know, you know, that one house that had their porch light out the crazy religious people that everybody knew, those are the crazy, you know, they're the ones from Stephen King's movie, Carrie, you know, that one house.

The scary, I don't know if scary is the right word. The disturbing part is now, you know, when I look down our street, I would say three fourths of the lights were off. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it's like, it's sad, because when we first moved here, um, that was not the case. People would like, they'd have their chairs allowed, they have bonfires, people would be handing out like food and drinks for the adults, adult beverages, candy for the kids.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Slauson Hot dogs. Jared Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was a decently large sized presence. And then this year, and it's been declining.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Slauson It's been slowly.

[Lilin Lavin]
Every year, it declines a little bit. Jared Right. And so, this year, it's real quiet.

And I know it was again, like, we'll see when we get back to being closer to if there's a change, but it was definitely quiet. Pete Slauson Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that kind of reinforced some of my thinking, you know, again, like we said, we saw the sort of craziness at the event, and that's becoming more vocal. There's more of them. And like you said, not just our event, this is sort of, you know, US wide, I'm sure it's actually happening in other countries in the world, too.

I'm just not that plugged into what happens in other countries. But, you know, you can physically, you can actually see it, it's something tangible, I can look and look down my street and be like, holy shit, only a fourth of the lights are on, you know, hardly anybody has their decorations.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jared If we're still so fortunate as to have this awesome podcast in 2025, because guys, guess what the 31st falls on a Friday. Yay. But, but come 2025, if we're still chatting, we'll tell you whether or not we see a big shift in whether or not it's a loud, busy thing again, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Slauson No, I'm definitely not. And like I said, unfortunately, for me, it just feels like Jared It's concerning. we're not done.

To me, this sort of feels like the beginning ish, you know, things are getting worse. And I just don't know what it's going to take my, I put my, you know, reality hat on. And my fear is that it's going to take something, something big that that, you know, these radicals are going to do before some people wake up and they're like, holy shit, we're actually there.

This was Christians this time. You know, that's, that's my fear.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, and I did talk about this a little bit. The other thing that I think it comes down to, there was a TST event, one of the services where Thomas Valor was doing it. And it was talking about, you know, the witch hunts, and whether or not that really ever ended and what it really means.

And I think if you really look at historically, the witch hunts were against people that threatened to church no matter who it was, or why it was or when it was. And now you're seeing teachers, educators, scientists, librarians, again, educators, you know, people that purvey knowledge, just the same things that are constantly deemed to be demonic and dangerous throughout history, throughout history, historically, through multiple countries, years dealing with this as an ever present issue. So, for me, it's not just a satanic panic, it's a continuation of the longstanding tradition of witch hunts.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I agree. Well, I don't know. Please message us, kind of give us your thoughts on this.

Are you seeing more of this? Is this becoming more prevalent for you? Have you not been paying attention?

And now you're like, holy shit, you know, now, yeah, this is sort of starting to make sense. But I really do hope that we don't go through a whole nother full blown satanic panic. But yeah, it's definitely there.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'll leave you with this, though. I personally don't feel like we're so far down the rabbit hole that it's not something we can pull ourselves back from. And I think the more people that talk about it, that actually address it, that actually do things where they have the capability to where like, we go to these events in Polk County, because we want to support that community, the individual that holds these events, and Jason, he is very prevalent.

He's out there in his community. He's writing up reports when people break the law and do things that are inappropriate. He is doing everything the right way.

We can all do that. We all have that capability. We all have that power right now.

And I implore you, do it by voting. Do it by starting voting pools where you get together and, you know, go together to go vote. Do it by being in your community and supporting different beliefs, different faiths.

Open up that dialogue. We are not so far gone that we can't turn this around, but it's going to take all of us. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And support the communities that are being attacked as well. You know, be a voice, be an ally.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I mean- You don't have to be a pagan or a Satanist or any of the other things. I mean, there are plenty of Christians that come out to these events. Good people hang out at these events together, people that are just atheistic.

We're all out there supporting each other because it's about the community. I mean, really, we're not out there being one group or another. We're there together.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And not just the religious side of it, not just Christian or pagan or whatnot. Support the LGBTQ movement.

Support drag queens who are not out there grooming children. When you look at that, it happens in the churches way more than anything else. I see it every single day on social media.

And that's the part that's being ignored. They're ignoring it in their own community, and they're pointing fingers elsewhere.

[Lilin Lavin]
Support local businesses that are supportive of other individuals. Support individuals who are struggling with being treated poorly and being oppressed. Stand up when you see things that are going safely.

Stand up when you see things going on where people are being treated poorly. There are so many times, and even in my life, where individuals were killed and harmed out in public because nobody decided to say no. Nobody said you're wrong.

Nobody said don't do that. Now, I'm not telling you to stand in front of a gun. I'm not telling you to put yourself in a bad situation.

Call for help. Get involved. Record things.

Do what you can safely to let people know that this is not okay. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I think that's a good message to leave it on.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Well, we will wrap another episode. Yep.

Good morning, good afternoon, and good night. And hail Satan. Hail Satan, guys.