Ep.20: Defying Opposition - A Day at the Pagan Market

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.20: Defying Opposition - A Day at the Pagan Market

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today we're going to kind of talk about our fun, exciting, and sometimes awkward, scary day that we had yesterday at the Polk Pagan Market.

[Lilin Lavin]
So yeah, and it actually started way before the day that we ended up going a few days prior. I know we, the Satanic Temple Houston had gotten an email that I ended up responding to with a pastor that was reaching out to discuss a peaceful, a peaceful meeting. No, he wanted to meet and discuss it, but he also wanted to make sure that we can come to a peaceful, mutually beneficial arrangement.

And I was like, well, the peaceful and mutually beneficial arrangement I can think of is you let us have our market and we let you do the things that you always do where we never show up. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Which the ironic thing was, I mean, this is the Polk County Pagan Market. They've got their own website, polkcountypagan.com. Obviously not the Satanic Temple, but you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
It doesn't sell as much to say we're going after all the pagans than it does to say we're going after the Satanic Temple.

[Tommy Lavin]
The Satanists are holding an event is the call that went out to all the churches in the areas. The Satanists are holding this event in, you know, Polk County and Livingston, and we have to go out there and stop them and, you know, be warriors of God or whatnot. You know, it's, we're not going to let this stand.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. One guy had put out a post about how much that, you know, he would love us and, you know, appreciate the fact that we have these rights, but he wasn't going to stand for it. I'm like, yeah, I love that first portion of your comment.

[Tommy Lavin]
So let's maybe start with the good. The good is this is a really awesome festival and market festival, whatever.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Community. This is our third event that we've done with them.

We've gone to the Ostra event, the Beltane event, and now the sawing event that we did for also known as Halloween. So we've done three now. The second one was a bit harder and nothing to do with the protesters.

It was hot. Yeah. I was like, it was 105 or something.

It was insane.

[Tommy Lavin]
And now we've become the community joke because when it's too hot for Satan, when the Satanists pack up and leave because it's too hot, what the hell are we still doing here? But, you know, the thing is, Satanists, we rely on science. And when people start having heat stroke, literal heat stroke, it's time to leave.

You know, it's just too fucking hot, but I appreciate it.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's a fun thing we all get to laugh about. And like I said, the community is amazing. There's just about every type of faith, including Christians represented in people that attend and then they're, you know, actual like normal Christians.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I was about to say, not the extremists, but the like actual kind of follow what Jesus sort of says, Christians, you know, where they're peaceful and all of that sort of shit. Yeah.

It's put on by Jason McLellan.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And Jason's a really cool guy. I mean, we've we've worked with him and stuff like that. And Jason will often also come over to us and, you know, kind of check in because, I mean, the Christians would probably be there anyways.

I'm sure they were there before because before. Yeah. They've done this for a full year.

And I think we just started this year. They just definitely ramped up after, you know, we started going. And so, you know, he'll come in, check in on, you know, anybody bothering you guys or have you seen this?

And he also knows that, you know, we'll kind of let him know when we see funky shit going down. So, you know, he knows he can kind of depend on us to say, yeah, by the way, some of those guys, they actually came in here and you're not supposed to because.

[Lilin Lavin]
So the important thing is for this event, they rent out a local park at the point that they rented out. They do claim ownership of the property for that period of time that they're on it. They maintain it.

They clean up all the trash. They do all the things that you're supposed to do. It is their space, just like a house.

If you rent a home, you can have a party, you can do whatever within reason what is allowed by the owner and what you allow is what you allow who you say can come in is who can come in. And the event and Jason had put out a list of people that were not welcome and they were unwelcome because they had put out some very negative comments on social media. And so because they chose to show that they were asked politely not to attend, there was a no proselytization requirement and there was a few people that had just been particularly ugly on social media and they were just said, you know, these guys are not allowed here.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So the event, though, if you're ever in South Texas or you know, decide even if you're in like Dallas and decide that you want to take a road trip down to Louisville, highly, highly recommend it. I mean, there are a ton of vendors there.

There's food. Holy shit. That macaroni and cheese with pulled pork, mac and cheese.

Holy shit. That's dangerous. I mean, fucking bury me with that shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I mean, I want to be like a pharaoh. The guy came over. It was really nice.

Quite a few of the vendors they knew when you're vending at any of these kind of events, you can't really leave. You're sort of locked in. We're fortunate because we have a few really great ministers that come out and we have some of the congregation members that come out.

And so they all help. I mean, everyone was amazing. But these vendors, they come over and the guy with the barbecue pit, he come by and he had the menu and I was like, huh, mac and cheese, huh?

He's like, don't don't knock it till you try it. You know, I wouldn't have thought about it. Somebody asked for it.

And then I tasted it. It was amazing.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it really is. Yeah. So, yeah, if you ever have a chance to have mac and cheese with pulled pork in it.

[Lilin Lavin]
But if you are in northern Texas and maybe Livingston's a little far, don't forget, there's also an event in Tyler, Texas, where the Satanic Temple Dallas participates and they do an amazing job as well. So feel free to check out that market because a few of those vendors from the Livingston Polk County market also go up there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, I mean, whenever we go to these events, you know, we bring we bring our normal sort of Satan items. You know, we've got a nice display booth that we put, you know, all of our trinkets on.

And then we we sell T-shirts tell fun because everything we do is sort of self-funded and, you know, by volunteer basis, you know, so we we use it and sell some T-shirts and talk to a lot and a lot of people. And then throughout the day, we do unbaptisms, you know, every couple hours or so, you know, we normally do I'd say about three to four, depending on the day, depending on how long the day is, how fucking hot it is.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. But we usually get a decent group.

We get anywhere from five to ten people per group. Sometimes you'll see a larger group. We also get a few private requests where people say, you know, I don't really want to be part of a crowd.

Is it OK if we just do one on the side? Absolutely. And we were fine to do that.

There's no charge for unbaptisms because we believe it's important for people to have the opportunity to. It's a psychological thing. It's not an actual ritual.

We don't believe in a literal Satan, but it gives folks the opportunity to unburden themselves from a ritual that was performed on them, often as small children without any consent to remove psychologically this burden that's been placed on them and these expectations. And I've always told people, hey, if you decide to go out and get baptized tomorrow, at least it's your terms. You're going ahead and you're entering into it as an adult of free will and clear conscience.

You can choose that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And unbaptisms are one of my favorite rituals just because of the you know, there's a lot of people that come up who have a lot of religious trauma and this is just a way for them psychologically to help move past some of that religious trauma. And you can actually see some people's demeanor change after an unbaptism.

And it's just we're basically giving you permission to be you, you know, under your terms. And so that that's a really fun part of the day in the event.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's beautiful. It's emotional. I mean, lots of hugs, a little bit of tears on occasion.

It's a wonderful thing to be able to provide for people. You don't have to be a Satanist. I don't care who you are, where you come from, or what it is that you're struggling with.

It's a way for you to get acknowledgement that you're fine exactly the way that you are and the judgment that's been cast on you for whatever reason. That's another individual's issue. You don't have to carry that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, definitely. And so, yeah, like I said, I can't rave enough about this event. Normally, it's a two day event, but we normally only show up on Saturdays because it is about a two hour drive for us, you know, plus loading and unloading and all that sort of stuff.

So it is a bit of a trek. So we normally show up on Saturdays, which I think probably gets the most traffic anyways.

[Lilin Lavin]
Both days are fun. And I know they do a lot of stuff the second day. And one of the it's on my agenda of things to actually stay for the full weekend.

It's just we have, you know, pets and obligations. So it's not always easy. And we do usually bring our own kids.

And, you know, they don't they don't necessarily want to hang out and camp for an entire weekend. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And when we say kids, again, they're, you know, 15 and 18. So they're not little kids.

[Lilin Lavin]
The event is so fun. There was costume contest this time. There was prizes for different contests.

There was a witch dance and walk. This was the first year they did that. There was just so much fun stuff.

They did movies, outdoor movies under the stars. They're just so many cool things that even the Girl Scouts were there. Yes, they usually are.

And we love the Girl Scouts. They have come up and given us cookies. And I absolutely adore them.

There's one in particular that will hang out with us. And me and her will go for walks. And she'll just talk to me about random things.

And she's just the sweetest, sweetest person. You know, it's just so fun.

[Tommy Lavin]
The first time we were there, remember the first event? Yes, we were getting massive. Yeah, we were getting a lot, a lot of protests.

And they came over and they were like, these people are being really mean to y'all. Have some Girl Scout cookies. And they gave us like two or three boxes of Girl Scout cookies for free just because the Christians are being such assholes that it was like, oh, wow, thank you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, there are some I cannot tell you enough. This community is a strong, beautiful, vibrant community full of tons of amazing people. So if you have a chance, they all bring really cool, unique things.

You've got crystals, you've got bath powders, bombs, swords, knives, wet mounts, dry mounts, you can imagine it. They've got it lots of handmade items, tons of fun.

[Tommy Lavin]
Holy shit. freeze, freeze dried candy, jolly ranchers, and freeze dried nerds that they they use a, you know, either liquid nitrogen or something to put these in and they they deconstruct to reconstruct them. And oh my gosh, insane.

That just I mean, they're like crack. You start you cannot just have one. Suffice it to say, don't do crack.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no, no, no, I don't condone that. You know, but it's suffice it to say it's a beautiful event. So that's the good part.

I've never had an issue with anybody there. There are people of every faith of every walk. We have great conversations with tons of people.

Some people share what it is that they believe we share if they ask what it is that we believe most of the time they do, because there's a lot of misinformation out there. So they like to hear it from the horse's mouth. And that's wonderful.

What gets a little weird is like you had mentioned, we had a group of folks who we've figured pretty quickly that they were from the protest group, every event we have, there's a group of protesters, they've got some rather interesting signs they line up. Yeah, they line up along the road to enter and they've got their megaphone. They try and block traffic.

They do and it's all illegal. It's funky because if they see a cop, if they see you with a camera, they quickly move off. They're very practiced at doing these protest events.

Because I did make a little bit of a stink, not in a rude way, I decided to go up and record them because they were in the road, like literally standing in the roads. I was like, fine. So I went up to the edge at the entry where the driveway was.

And I stood there and they decided to stay in the grass, which is fine. And then shout things about how I was going to hell and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They didn't do it this time.

But last, the first time, and it was a lot of kids because it was a really nice day, a real windy, but it was a nice day. And it was just shouting all these grotesque things. And there are young children at these events.

And they talk about how, you know, awful it is. The pagans are bad and Satanists are bad. And meanwhile, the most vulgar things were honestly coming from these preachers, evangelist preachers.

And I mean, it was nasty stuff. I had walked up during the last event, and the preacher pretty much told me, you know, God hates me. And I was like, well, that's definitely not a, that's a pretty hard sell there, friend.

But, you know, this time, they didn't say those things. It was a different route. You know, they did tell a lot of people with kids in the car that came to just have some fun, that they were damning their kids, which is pretty shitty.

Darrell Bock Yeah, sending their kids to hell.

[Tommy Lavin]
But, you know, like you were saying, it was, we had a group of individuals walk up to our booth. And, you know, you can kind of tell who people are and their demeanor. Kirsten Well, it helps that they always look kind of pissed.

Darrell Bock Yeah. And, you know, the first questions are like, you know, they kind of give them away. What's with all the black?

You know, and it's, does this have meaning? Or no, dude, it's fashion. Kirsten Well, for some people, I have no doubt.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, it's like I said, there's probably a bit of symbolism. I mean, it was very popular. Gothic fashion had a lot of black to it.

You know, we're often seen as black sheep. So I guess you could say, you know, there's that aspect and the creatures of the night. So there's that aspect.

And then there's just the essential. People often, for whatever reason, associate the ad with the darker colors.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. And so yeah, then they started, you know, you could tell really quickly that these guys were from the protesters, which means they weren't supposed to be there. And they knew it too, because one of their questions they asked, again, somehow, this got translated into that this was our event, even though we have like a vendor booth.

It's kind of obvious. If you've got more than two brain cells in your brain, and they collide every once in a while, you can tell, hey, this is a vendor. But for some reason, they believe that we were putting on the entire event.

And they mentioned, I heard there's a list of banned people that aren't allowed to be in here. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Well, why would you all do that?

Well, we didn't do that. You need to talk to the person that is running this, Jason. And they still couldn't quite grasp that we weren't putting on this event, and that we didn't make the rules and you know, all of that sort of stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jason Blume Or have the ability to take any personal accountability for their behaviors that led to that happening in the first place.

[Tommy Lavin]
But the problem is, you know, you see things that happen now and more routinely in the world. You know, we just had Maine, what, last weekend. It hasn't even been a week since we had this mass shooting in Maine.

And unfortunately, a lot of the profiles seem to lean towards white, middle aged men, Christian evangelists, Christian nationalists, MAGA followers, you know, that seems to be a very prolific. It's not all of them. I granted there are mass shootings that are done by all manner of people, but there's a profile there, there's definitely a profile.

And the part that sucks is that we are now in a world in a society where when you see a group of five, white, middle aged, well, actually, there's there's two black individuals in there. So three white, middle aged men, two black individuals, and but they're evangelicals. They've been shouting really, really nasty stuff.

You know, they've got that, you know, that really stern, mean look on their face, like they are just looking for a fight. You know, you can tell when somebody wants to fight.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Vinas-Nelson Yeah, there is definitely a kind of, I don't know, there's just a demeanor about people. And so I wasn't sure. They did come up that there was, it was sort of leaned that way, especially once they got to that part of the conversation.

But it was, you know, well, what about these tenants? Like, what do you think about this? And how do you, you know, live your life this way, and yet say that you believe that?

What about the First Amendment? And I was like, well, actually, the First Amendment says that we can be here that all of these people can be here that you, you know, if you're following the rules, and you're supposed to be in a place that you can be here. And it was like, well, you know, would you care if Christians were in here and had a booth like yours?

And I said, well, you know, as long as they weren't prophesizing, because again, the event asked people not to do that. And you were being not hateful or ugly towards people, because again, that's just not polite. And nobody really wants that.

Pete Stephens And you weren't disturbing people. Jessica Vinas-Nelson Yeah, then I wouldn't care. If I was at a multi-faith event like this, where you had many people of different beliefs, and one of them were Christian, and they were next to us, you know, as long as they were being respectful of us, our boundaries, our space, and not being hateful towards people, I wouldn't care at all.

You know, there's room for everybody. And the beauty is people get to come up and ask questions and choose what they want to interact with. So why would that bother me?

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Stephens Yeah. But yet, these guys are of the mind that nobody else is allowed to have, and no other faiths are allowed to have events, except for theirs. I mean, you bet your ass if we showed up on their church parking lot on Sunday morning, trying to block traffic and got a megaphone and started yelling when we probably wouldn't make it out of the parking lot.

Somebody would probably literally shoot us, especially in these country areas.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Vinas-Nelson And not to in any way diminish the job that the Polk County Police did, because they did show up, they were there, they were incredibly helpful. But I feel like if we were to do something like that, because church property is private.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Stephens Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jessica Vinas-Nelson If we were to do something like that, I do feel like that it would be a bit of a different situation. I haven't done that. So this is all speculation.

But sometimes they'll do events, they'll have fall events, because they do a counter, what do you call it, Halloween event a lot of times where they do like a pumpkin patch and just fun things for the kids, which is great, you know, fine, do whatever. But if we were to go to this park where they're doing these pumpkin patch candy things, and we were to just do on baptisms in the corner off to ourself and do these things with a little megaphone and happen to just talk about some of the things we don't agree with, with Christianity, I have a feeling that they would take exception to that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Stephens Yeah, they would definitely take exception. And I have a feeling that the police would not be as friendly towards us. Again, that's speculation.

I am speculating. But definitely because, you know, the police let them off Jessica Vinas-Nelson Pretty easy. with many things, you know, because they got called multiple times during the day when they were breaking the rules.

[Lilin Lavin]
An officer actually watched two of these individuals come back into the property later on in the day after they'd even come up to our booth to confront us or whatever it is they thought they were doing. And the cops were like, you know, hey, if you happen to see them, if you can find them and point them out, they're going to jail, which that's great.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Stephens But here's my problem. Okay. If I ran into a church during a service, do you think the cops are going to tell the preacher?

Hey, by the way, if you find him, let us know. No, they're going to go in and they're going to look, but these they didn't. They just were like, well, if you find them, let us know and we'll arrest them.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then they left because it was shift change or something, you know, so it was Jessica Vinas-Nelson I'm not going to shit on it. There were aspects I didn't like, but I do appreciate that they didn't completely just not do anything.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, you know, I just, I wish the Polk County Police Department would take it a little bit more seriously when these people show up.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right, because of what you talked about, though, when I did go up to the road, because they were standing in the road and people are just trying to visit a fun event. We had trick or treating costume. Again, it was a very fun, family friendly event.

Didn't matter what you believed. Just have fun. Free entry.

Just have a good time. And they were just standing there being hateful. And so I went up there with one of the other congregation members and we were just standing up there.

I didn't talk to these folks. I'm just looking at the cars that are coming in. I'm waving.

I'm, you know, using the sign language, you know, for I love you and, you know, thanking them for coming in. And they were just happy and waved at us as they left or came in, you know, and it was fine. But they were mad because we stayed there and one of us had a camera.

And so they just continually got more and more angry. And at one point, I think some of their wives, or I assume wives, were sitting in the corner and they ended up coming up toward the road because, you know, both of us were women. And, you know, they're all scowling over there and all angry and talking, shouting about how Jesus and, you know, the one thing that really was interesting to me is they talked about how you're enslaved by Satan and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, so you want them to instead be enslaved by God? I mean, what is the difference really? And no, we don't actually believe in that.

So kind of have a conversation with us. And you did. And you know that's not true, but they don't believe it.

And they're the exact same folks that I have sometimes had nightmares about some of these folks coming into events that I'm at, especially when my kids are there, and something horrible happening to them. And it's something I actually have to weigh every time I think, like, do I want to bring – my kids will ask me, hey, you're doing this thing. Can we go with you?

And sometimes I'll say no. I'll say no because I feel uncomfortable or because I'm worried about the type of people that might show up and that'll put them at risk. And I'll warn our congregation members, you know, I'd love you to be able to attend.

I do want you to be aware that there are these kind of folks up front. I had to do it for book club for fuck's sake.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Slauson Yeah, we got a bomb threat.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then for this event, there was a few individuals that were – because I monitor the conversations around these things just for safety's sake – that were saying, take it by force. You know, we're going to kick these demon-possessed people's heads in and all this stuff. But you know, it is that those are threats of violence.

And it just takes one person that seriously believes that there's some kind of evil demonic warfare to come in and actually cause harm to people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah. And especially somebody that's a little unhinged. We have no gun laws in Texas, basically.

I mean, Texas got rid of – you used to have to have a license to conceal carry in Texas. You had to go take a course. You had to qualify by shooting, showing safety and all of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
It doesn't stop you from being crazy. Obviously, you know, look at Maine. That was a firearms instructor, you know, but it helps at least a little at times.

We have nothing here. Any yahoo can go buy a gun. You can open carry.

You can conceal carry. You could throw an AK-47 over your shoulder and walk up to a school door, not into the school, but you could walk up to the school door so you can be on school property– Evan Brand At the damn grocery store– Dr. Justin Marchegiani –with an AK-47 slung over your shoulder and the people in the office are trained to just look and say, are they trying to come in or are they just there to pick up their child? Now, I'm sorry, but at least when I was growing up, school zones– well, a little bit after– Evan Brand Gun-free zones, yeah. Dr. Justin Marchegiani We're gun-free zones. They took away– Texas has no gun-free zones as far as I know. Maybe somebody can correct me. Maybe like the post office or something is a gun-free zone, but– Evan Brand I think some of the government buildings do have stricter– especially like courthouses– Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, courthouses. Evan Brand And I imagine the post office because it is a government– Dr. Justin Marchegiani But if a post office– okay, let me try and put it this way. If a fucking courthouse is off-limits for guns because we don't want like the judges shot or something like that, shouldn't a school, too? What's our most precious– you know, what is the most precious things that we have?

It's our children, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
And far too many parents know exactly what that looks like because far too many parents have lost their children to gun violence. It's a fear that I have every day, you know, when I bring my kid to school and I drop them off and they've told me– we didn't bring it up. I've never had that discussion because it's my anxiety to carry, right?

And I'm afraid, you know, every time I drop them off, did I say I love you? Is that the last time I'll get to tell them I love you? Like why is that a thought process that has to even go through our head?

But the other day, our child was in the car with us on the way to school and they brought up how sometimes they're afraid that they won't see us after school, that they won't make it through a day of school.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, that's just– Dr. Justin Marchegiani What the fuck is that? Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, we are horribly traumatizing the children in our society because of all of this gun violence. And again, you know, we talked about the market and kind of led into this because of the events that happen at the market.

The pigging market is a really fun place to be and go and all that. But when you have these crazies across the street that show up, you know, bullhorn and all and, you know– Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, they've got a trailer and they have all their signs and their speakers and their stuff. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Husky, redneck looking people, you know, the thought definitely starts to go through your head. And we shouldn't have to have that thought in our society.

[Lilin Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani And I can't tell you I've ever, ever, ever thought about, you know, I really don't like what the First Assembly Church up the street's doing because I think what they're doing is dangerous and negative and it's ruining society. Do I sometimes feel that way about some churches?

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Oh, definitely.

[Lilin Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Sure, but would I ever, decide to go up to, outside of, inside of the building to say that, to make a stink about it, to prevent people from entering the building? No, that is not my right.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yeah, or is it your right or anybody else's right to harm people because they have a different ideology or belief? So these mass shootings that are happening, you know, when we have events, it's definitely in the back of our mind. And sometimes congregation members bring it up.

They're like, I don't know, I've seen a bit of hate about this one. You know, I'm worried to go where I was planning on bringing my kids to this because it sounded fun, but I don't know if I will this time around, you know, and that's, that's really sad and, and fucked up. I mean, it's, it's, I don't have any other words other than it's fucked up.

[Lilin Lavin]
Dr. Justin Marchegiani It's not to say that there haven't been crimes committed against churches. I mean, for sure, there have been hate crimes that were motivated to go in and kill people in a church. And that's wrong.

That should not be happening. So, you know, it's not just that we're dealing with it, but it definitely feels scary. And I have to imagine for synagogues and for, you know, different mosques and different faith centers that they also must be feeling that fear and anxiety, you know, because it feels like and maybe it's not a feeling, maybe it's a fact, but to me, it feels like these, these crimes have really gotten to be out of hand.

We've got, I feel like a shooting almost every damn day, definitely multiple a month. And, you know, it is horrifying to concept a way is this, is this event worth dying over?

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Jonathan Zittrain Right, right. And unfortunately, Christian nationalism is really exploding in the United States. And again, the type of people that seem to be drawn to that are they fit the profile, you know, tend to be middle aged, sometimes white, sometimes not, you know, there's people of color in there, too.

But middle aged, you know, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say some of these beliefs and their aggressive tactics, obviously, there's some questionable mental, you know, Dr. Angela Brennan Possibly. I mean, I'm not a mental health professional.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no, but they definitely make some, some, they say some things they act in ways that make me feel questionable towards their stability, for sure.

[Tommy Lavin]
Dr. Jonathan Zittrain And violence, you know, again, like I said, Dr. Angela Brennan Well, they're not preaching nice things. I'll tell you that. Dr. Jonathan Zittrain No. And, and yesterday, when they came up to the booth, I and I told I talked to you about this this morning, I really think it was quite obvious there was like one guy that was like the ringleader of these five people. They had respect for for some reason, you know, up to the booth, he was the one that started doing the talking. And he was asking questions in a way where you could tell, depending on how you answered that question, it could go one of two ways they were, they were definitely looking to agitate the situation.

And I got the sense by watching them. And, you know, because you can get a lot of information by people's body language, the way they present themselves, the way they stand and all that sort of stuff, you know, so there's, there's a lot with unsaid that you can get from people too. And you could tell that they were wanting some sort of a confrontation.

Luckily, the person who was talking seemed to have somewhat of an understanding, rudimentary of Satanism. And when he asked the questions, you did such an awesome job of deescalating, and just answering the questions in a way where it became very difficult for him to argue with, but doing it in a way where it wasn't confrontational, whereas like, I know, I answered a couple of those questions at first, and then I could tell what they were trying to do. And I was like, it's probably not a good idea for me to talk to these people, because I'm just going to wind up telling them to F off, or I'm going to answer it in a way, which is going to create confrontation.

So I just kind of stepped back, you took over.

[Lilin Lavin]
Enots was another congregation member of ours, Nigel, one of the other co-congregation heads, you know, all of us, the goal, whenever I have these kinds of situations, because they do come up more often than people probably think, is to be as straightforward and honest, because, you know, if you try to say something, you know, witty or sarcastic, it's just going to piss them off more. If you tried to say something semi confrontational, true though it may be, it's just going to piss them off more. So the strategy I always try is just be honest, answer the question simplistically and directly.

And just, you know, don't bring anything emotional into it, just be very flat and straightforward, because that's the only way that you're going to hopefully just answer what they need. And then they'll, they'll usually leave.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the way I read the situation, as I was standing back and watching, it was interesting because they showed up about 20 minutes before our first unbaptism. And that was one of the first questions they asked was about unbaptism, you know, when's it happening?

What is it all about? You know, and so, and as I watched them, I got the feeling that if the guy that was interacting with us would have made some sort of an aggressive, like move or said, you know, somewhere in his mind, I want to take this to a bad place. The other four were there to do that.

You know, they definitely seemed like they were there.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's hard to judge because I think a lot of what you see in their body language and their facial expressions and their tone of voice, I think, honestly, personally, this is just my personal read, is that there's so much hostility and hatred towards us just because we are seen as literally representing the most hateful evil thing that they can imagine. They see us as literal soldiers of Satan.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. In a world where they believe in spiritual warfare, they believe like demons and angels are all around people and they're battling these invisible battles. And we influence people just by our presence, because all of our demons are there with us.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, several of the posts that people put out where they're going to take children's souls, they're going to corrupt children's souls, they're destroying our community. A few people actually posted on Polk County's community board where they were just dismayed that this was even allowed to happen, which, I don't know, constitutionality says that we have the freedom of and the freedom from religion. And that means they get to have whatever religion they want, and they get to have churches and they get to have church events.

And we also get to do that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, but that's where they miss it. So they read the First Amendment as they have a right to their religion and nobody else does. I mean, that's the way they look at it.

It's pretty obvious when you read it, that's not what it says, but that is honestly the way that they look at it.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I think it doesn't help that a lot of political leaders, a lot of religious leaders have definitely pushed this narrative and convinced a lot of people, because, you know, people don't want to do research. They don't want to learn more than what they're told. And so they've told people that the Constitution protects Christianity.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, well, and the Republicans just, you know, they just put the House Speaker in who is an extremist. He's a Christian nationalist, super person, you know, hates gays, hates abortion, you know, women hates women.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you read through this stuff that that man says, he hates women. So he sees them as people that he should be able to just subjugate and forced to live to serve men.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, I mean, this has become, you know, it's really taken over a single party. So yes, these people feel more emboldened now, because they have politicians, they have, you know, legislatures, lawmakers, backing them, telling them this is the right way. This is America is a Christian nation.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, it's not freaky. I mean, there's congregation heads in other states, because we do talk to one another, we have a community where we speak about things and things that we go through. And all across the United States.

I don't know that it happens often in a lot of the other countries, because they have very different stances on religion and a lot of this stuff. But all across the United States, they're, they definitely feel the same fear, stress, just weigh on them. I know one of the other people that I've talked to, and I've seen them say this a lot publicly, Dex Dargenas, who does a lot of spokesman work.

And he literally has said, I think there's a very good chance I may die doing this job. And I guess that's just something I've accepted as a reality for what I've done what I've chosen. And I too, have been in enough situations where I'm like, well, I guess you know, if it happens, it happens.

I don't want it to happen. But I mean, I love being part of this community. I love being able to, to get out and speak to people.

I love what I do. And I'm not going to let that fear shrink me.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no. And I mean, Satanism 101 is, you know, you love life, you love the experiences of life, you I mean, indulgence, that is what we're supposed to be about. So yes, accepting the fact that it is possible that something negative could happen, but you don't stop living because of that.

Well, I mean, something negative could happen any day. Yeah, we could go to the movies. You know, in our society, in our culture now, yeah, you know, you see a lot of these mass shootings, what are people doing?

They were fucking bowling on youth night in Maine.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, But even take that aside, right? Like we have some of the worst drivers, I'm sorry, Texas. But it's true.

And especially in the Houston area, driving is something I'm not fond of at all. But it's because I don't trust the other people behind the cars. So there's, you know, anything could happen for any stupid reason.

So yeah, I don't let it eat me alive. But it's just sucks to love doing things like this so much. And to just know that maybe if I can make one person's day, if I can give one person having a hard time something positive to take away, that that makes me very happy.

I'm overjoyed when I can do things like that. And to know that I'm like, okay, well, today I can do something really awesome, but I might die. That's that just sucks.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, you know, when we talk about these, when we're talking about guns, and these, you know, these deranged people that do these shootings, because they are deranged, if you're going to go out, and the weapons of their choice, which tend to be AR-15s, or something like that. You know, I, to be clear, I am a gun owner. I am, I believe in the Second Amendment, right.

But I believe in it, within reality, you know, I believe in common sense gun laws. If you have mental health issues, you should not own a gun. If you have domestic violence, or any sort of violent past, you should not own a gun.

If you're a stalker, you shouldn't, you know, the what is it called where it's, it protects battered women, it's one of the gun, common sense gun laws that, you know, protects battered women that if, if somebody's

[Lilin Lavin]
talking about an order of protection, because I mean, any woman or other people that have put them out will tell you point blank that while it's nice to have, and it definitely it's a piece of paper, it aids in court things, if it continues to escalate.

But the point is, it continues to escalate. So yeah, it's great to have that and documentation wise, but there are times where just getting the court order can actually create other, other issues. Yeah, but I mean, you know, yeah, do it, though, keep that record, you want that record of things happening, but understand that there, yeah, it's a piece of paper.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So yes, I'm, I am okay with guns in general, especially if you're using them for let's say, you, you shoot to you go hunting to eat. Yeah, I am.

I'm not for trophy hunting. I do not believe in that. But we are meat eaters.

So I am okay with hunting for food. But you don't need an AR 15 for that. If you are that bad of a hunter that you need 20 or 30 rounds to hit a deer, you should take your hunting license, rip it up, put it in the fireplace and burn it, dismantle your gun, because that those guns are not built for hunting.

They are built for one reason only, and that is mass casualties. And, you know, so yeah, I have no problem with people owning shotguns, guns, all of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I do believe that you in states where it's legal, and I have their thoughts about the other stuff. But in states where it's legal, I do think you have every right to protect your home and your family. I'm not necessarily going to kill someone taking my car.

You know, I don't want that to happen. But I'm not, I'm not going to let someone come in and risk my my life or my family's life. So that's kind of like the line for me.

Yeah, you're not coming in to gift me something.

[Tommy Lavin]
No. And in Texas, I mean, this is how, you know, kind of wacky the laws are here is I could shoot somebody through my door. They don't have to be in my house down the block.

Yeah, I can shoot him in my driveway. If they turn there, there's been people that have been shot turning around in people's driveway. So it is kind of a little bit like the wild wild west, which is what makes events like when we go to these events, a little bit more scary, sometimes concerning, I would say maybe not scary.

I'm not scared when I go there.

[Lilin Lavin]
But it's just Yeah, it's definitely crappy that that's a back of the mind reality that you have to even think about the only thing that happened at the event, and I'm still a little angry about it. And a little like, you know, is some people stole some things from the vendors, these people work really freaking hard. And they travel and this is something that they do.

This is their livelihood and just steal things from people is just low. That is the lowest of low. So whoever did that crap, consider turning things back in because that is just ridiculous.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I mean, yeah, we wanted that we thought after yesterday, we had such a good time. I mean, take the protesters, I don't give a shit. And I kind of look at it now.

Like, I'm not going there to play with Christians, especially crazy Christians. I do get concerned about them.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and the worst part about those folks is they did just continue to come in. And, you know, there's one individual there, their kid had wandered off and all of us like hold our breath a little bit because there's just this stupid level of fear, you know, that one of these idiots thought they were saving somewhere. I don't know.

Yeah, it did enter my mind when she came up. She's like, because they had come up earlier. You know, did you did you see my kid?

And they had just wandered off to chat with somebody else. But, you know, kids do that from time to time. And but the first thought I had was, oh, my gosh, you know, what if one of these crazy people come take a kid?

[Tommy Lavin]
And they were fine.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we found them quickly their soul. Yeah. But this is like, this is a level of concern that these individuals bring with them.

It's not the event still went on. Everyone still had a great time. The only people that didn't know these people that took hours out of their Saturday to stand there and scream at people.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I don't care how you whether you believe in God or not, or Jesus or any that never had a lot of the Bible. And Jesus's message was not stand across with a bullhorn and say horrible things to people and and become violent. His message was more of accepting love, peace.

So yes, I do not believe in God. I do not believe in that. Maybe there was a person named Jesus.

Maybe it was the story of many people.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, history dictates that there was most likely Jesus, just not the Son of God.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But the message that he preached, and this is the problem that I have with Christian national message, it's easy to just get stuck in. And again, none of this was written at the time the guy was talking. None of this is a firsthand account from even his disciples, if they were, in fact, even people.

But, you know, it's they weren't all it wasn't all peachy. But at the end of the day, the purpose was to try to get people out there to stand up against the horrible oppression that Jesus and people of his region were suffering from the kingdom of that time and the starvation and the poverty and the things that they were suffering through. So if you take that message forward to today, what you should be doing is getting out there and helping people and actively doing things.

And if they're so overwhelmed by what you've shown them, that they want to be part of what you're doing, then they join your church and they become part of your faith. And that's great. Do that.

Do that every day all day. Get people into it because you've been so loving and passionate and helpful and done so much for the community that they fall in love with you as a person and want to be like that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, but yeah, yelling, scouting, shouting, screaming, saying obscene things to people is not the way to and that's the problem that I have with evangelicalism. That's problem I have with Christian nationalism is they're kind of, and I even see Christians say this, they're fake Christians. They do not, you know, the Bible is just another weapon.

Yeah, they've weaponized it the same way that the Taliban and ISIS weaponized Islam. It's the same thing. Our domestic terrorists are Christian nationalists.

And it's unfortunate, like you said, they're even in the government now, which well, you look at some other countries that have gone that way.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. But I give props to Tanner, the guy that reached out to talk to us thinking we were in charge of the event.

We weren't, you know, that guy did end up moving it to somewhere else because he spoke to the park and they said, you have to have insurance and you have to reserve things. And then that wasn't going to work. So he did change venues.

They did still do a prayerful event gathering. And good for them. That's fine.

That's their right all day long. That's your right to do. But the folks that showed up to just stand there with red angry faces and hateful, scornful looks, that is not the way to win hearts and minds, folks.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no. And I mean, I give props out to Jason. Oh, for sure.

He puts up with a brunt of crap. He puts this together, you know, every couple months. He puts up with so much hatred.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think he even got a radio station and it was vandalized. Someone broke in, stole things, busted stuff up, spray painted. For what?

Because he lives a different faith. Good Christian behavior. You know, that's just shit.

[Tommy Lavin]
But that's what I mean. So it is sad that we have all of these gun violence issues. It is sad that when you go to events, you have to think, huh, is this a day?

You know, are these people that I know are going to be there that I know are, you know, unstable? Is this the day that they're going to do something? We shouldn't have that, especially when it comes to freedom.

America is supposed to be a pluralistic society.

[Lilin Lavin]
It makes our country beautiful that we have so many different people. Why can't we look at that and be proud of it instead of saying, but it's not fair that my faith isn't a predominant faith?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So anyways, we wanted to talk about yesterday because yesterday was so awesome. And every time we've gone to the Polk County Pagan Market, it has been unbelievably great.

Our experience, all the vendors are so welcoming. Lots of good stuff, cool stuff, fun stuff, unique stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. And we're going to continue to go to it because it is...

[Lilin Lavin]
As long as Jason wants us there, we're going to keep coming back because we love supporting the community. We love participating in the events and just being part of what he's put together, he should be so proud to have put together. And if you're in the area or if you're a vendor and you're curious, check out that Polk County Pagan Market.

I believe it's polkcountypagan.com. And come out and hang out with us and have a good time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And Houston TST posts all of its events on its website. So when we're going to do things like that, it'll be up on the website and you can see it.

And we do want people to come out and interact with us in a positive manner and talk to us and ask questions.

[Lilin Lavin]
And if you are a Christian that wants to just come out and learn more, do it, but make sure you're following the rules and having that respect that I'm going to have for you. If you're going to be disrespectful, it's probably not a good place for you to go. Yeah, probably not.

[Tommy Lavin]
So with that, yeah, again, I think we can probably wrap unless... I don't know if you had anything else to add on this. Again, I want to give Jason props.

[Lilin Lavin]
I want to give the festival props and it was just... All the vendors. I mean, we were very...

My daughter had a really cool costume and she won a 3D printer, which is amazing. They did, like I said, the costume contest were fun. The witch dances were fun.

There's so many cool things that these folks have done and I'm proud to be a part of it. So I look forward to doing that more and whatever people want to do. I guess the prayers worked because it was a beautiful, wonderful day.

So I appreciate that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Thank you, God, for making today wonderful and beautiful. I don't think that's what the Christians wanted, but...

[Lilin Lavin]
I appreciate your support. Thank you for the prayers of support. I appreciate you.

Yeah. But yeah, I guess on that note, good morning, good afternoon and good night, wherever you may be.