Ep.2: Let's Talk Abortion

# Satanists Nextdoor Podcast
# Episode 2: Let's Talk Abortion

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today, we were originally going to cover another topic, but given that it is the weekend anniversary of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, we felt very strongly to move our abortion conversation up, and that is what we want to cover and talk about today, you know, from a secular and a satanic point of view.

Because as a satanist, to me, choice is very important. And this, this overturn in, you know, the Dobbs case took choice away from millions of women.

[Lilin Lavin]
Absolutely. And I think very importantly, it also when it comes to bodily autonomy and personal sovereignty, which are deeply held core values that many satanists have, it strips that from individuals who may find themselves in a situation where they have to seek abortive care. And it is in fact, healthcare, despite what you may hear repeated over and over.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, one, it's healthcare to it's been in place for about 50 years now. I mean, it was going on 50 years. In a sense, I kind of blame both parties, because within that 50 years, both parties had the opportunity with enough people and enough votes to codify this into law.

Absolutely. And they both neglected to do so one, because of extreme religious radicals that that support them. And, you know, it's a minority, but they're a very loud minority.

And, and the other one, because either they looked at it in an ID, you know, ideological way of, oh, it's, it's, it's already in place, it'll never be overturned, you know, the world's perfect, or they were afraid to, and to me, that pisses me off. I mean, I'm, I'm just both parties had an opportunity to do this, they didn't. And because of that, and because of choices that were made, SCOTUS, right, was able to overturn Roe v.

[Lilin Lavin]
Wade last year, which is very upsetting for multiple reasons, I think, well, for one, we as individuals do not vote these people in and they are, in fact, changing landmark law, or the stare decisis that was already in place that made this a law that people could depend on. And then they kind of passed it off to the states. And the other issue with that I have is that state constituents weren't given the opportunity to actually vote on any of it.

And in the cases where they were, they overwhelmingly disagreed that it should be something that is removed for people that would like to seek that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, so to me, Roe v. Wade has somewhat been the right wing conservative talking point for 50 years, you know, they've rallied their base up with it. You know, oh, yeah, we're working on this, we're working on this.

And I don't really think that all of them were truly working on it, because obviously, they didn't have a plan moving forward when it did happen. And again, the states, most states did not allow their constituents to actually vote on abortion. You know, most of the time the lawmakers in Texas, I never got the opportunity to vote on abortion, the lawmakers who were already in place, went ahead and made the laws and voted on it didn't give us choice where I think because I remember when this happened.

And I remember, I kind of got the feeling like Republicans were looking at each other like, shit, what do we do now? You know, it actually happened. What do we do?

And then somebody thought, you know what we'll do, we're going to let Kansas, one of the reddest states out there, we're going to let Kansas voters vote on this. And it will show everybody that, you know, the Republicans are behind this, our constituents are behind this, and they let Kansas vote. And what happened?

Overwhelmingly, Kansas said no, thank you. Kansas said no. And I think at that point, they looked and they said, oh, shit, we fucked up.

We really fucked up. And that was right before an election, a great big election. And I think there was a lot, a lot of reaction to it.

I still think there is a lot of reaction to it, because I think Roe v. Wade, or I'm sorry, the Dobbs decision goes way beyond just abortion and choice. When you look at the language in there, even when you look at the studies, I think, you know, we were talking about this earlier, there's, what is it like a single paragraph dedicated to post 1868 or 1869?

And there's eight pages dedicated to before 1868?

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, yeah, I mean, they quoted in that what Alito quoted, it was Hale, who we all know is, maybe we don't all know, who was involved in the witch trials, believed that marital rape was acceptable. I mean, this is an individual I would not personally put into this particular situation. And they were out of what the 17th century, there was, let's see, it was Bracton, Coke, Hale, and Blackstone, they were all quoted.

And Bracton, just so we're all aware, 13th century, why are we going back to the 13th century? Would any of these individuals be cool with medicine going back to the 13th century, open up a book on medical reference for that period of time and use that today? Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I see you're running a bit of a fever. Hold on, I'm going to get my book from the 13th or, you know what, we're going to go really modern. I'm going to take my book from the 18th century out.

And let's see, what does it say? Oh, we're going to bleed you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Because that's, that's how we get rid of disease. We're going to get some leeches.

And we're going to bleed you because this is what our 18th century, our 18th century literature tells us to do. When you think about it that way, it is so ridiculous that they even had the nerve to put that in there. But I think they were reaching because who was pushing this?

This was being pushed by the Christian nationalists, evangelicals, you know, a lot of religious. This was a lot of religious doctrine in these decisions and laws should never be based on religion.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. I would argue that it wasn't. But the fact is they quoted biblical text in many cases where they discussed this and maybe not necessarily the Supreme Court justices, but individuals that were happy about this were more than thrilled to associate it with aspects of religious doctrine.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, maybe the justices didn't necessarily quote the Bible, but the people pushing the justices, they, they were, you know, this, this whole Roe v. Wade has been steep in religious doctrine since, uh, you know, it kind of began and this has been the, the, the evangelical marching orders and, and all that sort of stuff.

And now we've got certain states where life begins at conception. We've, you know, it's all over the place and these are personal religious beliefs. These aren't scientific facts and you're making law based on religious beliefs and that should never ever, ever happen in America.

[Lilin Lavin]
No. And the issue being that it is definitely being made from a religious standpoint because you have people telling you the whole life begins at conception thing. Um, you, you do create a unique organism at that point.

I agree, but that organism is not guaranteed life period. Many people will actually have miscarriages before they even realize they're, they don't even know that that's what happening. They feel like I'm just having my normal menstruation and you know, they don't know they were even pregnant.

So it's such a logical fallacy. It's such a whole, and it's really philosophical. Why are we making laws about philosophical argument?

Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, so I, I can, and sometimes when I get in these disagreements on online, I actually make this sort of argument. I'm like, okay, if we're going to go the whole Bible route and, and God, you know, this, this child is a gift from God and, and all that sort of stuff. Well, if God is all knowing, um, then that would mean that God knew that this, this embryo or fetus that he placed in this person would be aborted because if he's all knowing, then he knows that's going to happen.

So that would mean that God approved that. And who are you then to change God's outcome? God's will.

I mean, either God was right or, or God is not all knowing. Um, you know, and they, they say when a child dies, I've, I've heard so many times that God just called them home early and I get the emotional part about that. I'm like, well, you know, God calls, called these ones home just a little bit earlier.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then you're getting into theological stuff. And again, yes, a lot of these things are being pushed out there. It's like, um, just completely lying to make a point.

There is a situation where, and we all know that we are on Twitter way too much. So this will come as a surprise, you know, and the house Republicans official Twitter account put out these so-called facts about life. Now it wasn't, you know, in my opinion, anything to put the word fact, and that's what really got me and irritated me about it.

And it reads as follows facts about life at six weeks, the unborn baby has a heartbeat by 10 weeks. The unborn baby is sucking his or her thumb by 15 weeks. The unborn baby can feel pain.

Now we have immediately the appeal to emotion that's being used. We had to make sure to say his or her thumb. These are actually just responses to stimuli.

These are things that we're doing as we're building motor skills and developing as we're supposed to during that fetal development stage. So of course, let's, let's look at the facts 12 to tweak 12 weeks. Fetuses do suck their thumbs.

As I just explained, it's developing motor skills, 17 to 20 weeks. Now think about that in terms of when we're putting abortion limitations in place, 17 to 20 weeks, the four chambers of the heart have developed. Why is that important?

Because at six weeks, one of the reasons why we're saying six weeks is the cutoff is there's a heartbeat. It was usually called heartbeat bills.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So the, the heartbeat is actually something that's created by the ultrasound machine. At that point, it is the electrical impulses of what will eventually be the heart.

And they are detectable on this Doppler by default because of the way that it picks up this stuff. So you're not actually seeing a heartbeat or hearing a heartbeat. You're hearing the impulses of a developing embryo.

And then they have the 24 to 25 weeks a fetus can feel pain. Now this is not crap science. This is a science conclusively established through research.

Every major medical organization that's examined this issue and peer reviewed studies on the matter have consistently reached the conclusion that abortion before this point does not result in the perception of pain in a fetus. So how do they do that? They do different testing to understand what kind of neurological development has is there.

And based on that neurological development, the strands from the brain that reach down through the spinal cord that allow you to reach out into the nervous system that actually provide pain stimulus are just not present usually before that point. So this is all done through very careful scientific exploration and understanding. So when you argue this pain thing, if you were to look at bacteria under a microscope and if you're moving different pieces to look or adjusting things of a living bacteria, it will move in response to something approaching it as a natural response.

And as I said, it is a unique organism. It is an organism that's developing. So of course, it's going to have these very natural responses.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. But it's not sentient. It hasn't gotten any level of consciousness.

Like you said, four changes versus a heart aren't there till later. You can't feel pain. And it comes back to and in six weeks is just ridiculous because most women do not know they're pregnant at six weeks.

It's just and the problem is, is a lot of these laws are being pushed by either men who let's be quite blunt. A lot of men do not understand the woman's body and they know even less about pregnancy. I mean, the things that I've heard men say is just beyond stupid, you know, like the baby's in the stomach and shit like that.

I mean, it's just seriously take anatomy 101 or sex ed 101 to actually, you know, learn something before you you speak.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that goes back to another area that has been unfortunately affected by religious doctrine, where we do not teach children, comprehensive sexual education appropriately by age to to them for a variety of reasons. There's plenty of parents that don't feel it's appropriate. And I find that to be a horrible disservice because how can you understand your body if you won't even educate them about their body?

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that that that kind of goes off into a different subject. And I'm sure we will cover sex ed and and all of that sort of stuff. But, you know, the other problem with Dobbs is when you read what they put into Dobbs and and what they said is it brings into question everything from gay marriage, interracial marriage, women's voting, even contraception.

I mean, it brings all that back into.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, like when they when they put into the decision things like Loving Be Virginia and Griswold Be Connecticut and the different pieces that they put in. That's weird.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that's what I'm referring to, you know. And so that that brings into all those sort of things can be brought into question. And of course, they're going to say, oh, well, we're not going after that.

But you know what? For 50 years, Roe v. Wade stood and Supreme Court members were confirmed on we're not going after Roe v.

Wade. But but you're asked the first real true ability to do it. They did.

You know, so you have to read the tea leaves on these sort of things. And, you know, it comes back to elections have consequences and, you know, we don't get to vote in Supreme Court members or they're put there by the president and confirmed in by the Congress and whoever owns that at the time. Well, that's how your Supreme Court is set up.

And unfortunately, ours is set up with a lot of religious extremists on it. And that brings us into a very dangerous territory, because when you start creating laws based on a religious doctrine, that's called a theocracy. And although some people might think, oh, a theocracy would be great to live under.

I would challenge that because go look at other theocracies and see just how wonderful they are to live under for the people of the same faith of that theocracy, because the theocracy has to continue to get more and more and more extreme in order to keep power.

[Lilin Lavin]
And you're basing something on interpretation and depending on who's in charge of the theocratic belief system at the time, because those will shift as well, even if it stays within the same religious grouping where maybe we're talking about Christians or Muslims or depending on who it is that is running this theocratic system, it will change the severity of certain things. So even if you consider yourself to be incredibly devout, that standard can shift and you really challenge your own beliefs in your own belief system.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, I look at this and I sort of read the tea leaves and the way that people talk, the way that they present their arguments. And I saw a, I think it was a tweet or a meme or something like that the other day.

And what stood out to me was, and I've been saying this since Dobbs came in and overturned Roe v. Wade, that this is actually a danger in some of these more extreme states like Texas, very, very extreme state, Florida, very, very extreme state. I mean, these states are, they're kind of in competition with each other to see who can be the worst.

It brings into question things like, oh, where was I going with that?

[Lilin Lavin]
The birth control thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh yeah. Okay. So birth control, it brings into contraception.

It brings into question all sorts of choices that people make and taking away choice. Again, you're not pushing a religious agenda by giving people choice. You're pushing a religious agenda by taking away people's choice.

Just because you have a religious belief that you do not believe in abortion, that's fine. That's totally okay. And that is your right to have that belief, but it is not your right to force everybody else to live under your belief system.

That's just not okay to do. And that's not the way America was supposed to be set up.

[Lilin Lavin]
We are a pluralistic nation. You look at it, like you said, the contraception thing is a big deal, and Texas was where we are, and I know states like Florida deal with the same kind of thing. The way that they went after, the way that SCOTUS, the way that SCOTUS went after this situation is something they could do, let's say with Griswold v.

Connecticut from 1965, where the court found that a constitutional right to privacy protected women's ability to take birth control, right? Again, this is a thing that they're still going after, that right to privacy in the constitution is one of the things they did with abortion when they took that away, is they did put out a bill at one point that was to make sure that contraception would be available to everyone because family planning should be up to each family and the members of the family, and all Texas Republicans voted against that in 2022 when it was put to the House, every single one. That's scary.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, and again, why did they vote against it? They vote against it because of religious beliefs a lot of times. I mean, it's what they quote.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'll take it back, actually. One did not from Austin. The Republican from Austin just didn't vote.

[Tommy Lavin]
Did they abstain?

[Lilin Lavin]
They did not vote, yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
They just abstained, yeah. You know, and so again, that's fine if you have religious beliefs, but don't force those religious beliefs on other people, and giving choice is not pushing religious beliefs. It's giving people a choice to do one thing or another, and you don't know the circumstances around this person's life.

You don't know the circumstances around how they got pregnant. You don't know the circumstances. There's so many things that you don't know the circumstances around, and you're going to put a blanket no on something that should be choice and quite honestly affects women's rights and equality far more than just abortion.

I mean, again, I listen to the way people talk and the way that a lot of these either legislators talk or their constituents talk, and they talk about bringing back the family, and so not allowing women to have abortions kind of helps move women out of the workforce and forces them back into the house.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's the same sort of thing that they did with diversity, equality, and inclusion, where they didn't want to have biases that they said were automatically being put in place because of those programs. So it's just another way to chip away at that section, but I mean, it's alarming when you think about the fact that in 2021, when they did a study, the U.S. rate for maternal deaths per 100,000 live births was 32.9. When you look at the developed countries around us and what those rates were at that same time, I mean, you could look at France was 8.7, Canada was 8.6, UK 6.5. I mean, again, look at the numbers. We're in the double digits. Where were we again? We at that point in time for 2021, it was 32.9. And Canada was in the eights. France, Canada, and then it gets lower and lower and lower. We are in the double digits for mortality and maternal deaths. And that disproportionately affects people of color, black community, Hispanic community, definitely deal with that more for a lot of times socioeconomic disadvantage that those communities just inherently face.

But this is the same group of people who now, and I don't have statistics because it takes a while for these things to be compiled, what this picture looks like now that we've gotten rid of the ability to have abortions and those same communities are going to be disproportionately affected yet again. So I do unfortunately anticipate that that mortality rate will continue to increase. And it's interesting that it happens to be like a higher percentage when it comes to red states, which are the same states that actually have outlawed in most cases, abortion outright, if not limited it insanely to the point like six weeks.

Again, most people have just found out and you have no time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, some of these lawmakers, um, you know, people make an argument. Well, if you really want an abortion, you can travel.

Okay. Well, sure. If you have money and you have a really good job, maybe you can travel, but I'm going to put a bud in here.

There is legislation that they are trying to pass in a lot of these states that will punish women who leave a state, let's say like Texas or one of these other radical States, get an abortion somewhere else and come back and we'll punish those women because in the state that they reside, they committed a crime. Even if the crime, you know, that crime quote unquote was committed somewhere else. They were residing in that state.

They were pregnant. They left, they had an abortion. They came back.

Now only one of these I think has passed so far and it was for minors, but, but still that that's a big deal because why are some minors pregnant? Some minors are pregnant because they're raped at home. So you can't really go to mommy and daddy.

If mommy and daddy are the ones doing this to you and put you in this position and say, Hey, you know, while you were, while you were, you know, illegally raping me, um, I got pregnant and could you bring me to another state to get an abortion? I mean, that's just not the way it works. And a lot of these lawmakers, I just, it's like they don't use their brains when it comes to this stuff or maybe they do.

And that's even more screwed up. Right. Um, but I remembered what I was going to say.

Um, so it went back to reading the tea leaves and the way people say things. And it was originally a quote by Trump who said that women who get abortions, um, should be punished. And you know, he was talking about, at least at the time he said, women who get abortions should be punished.

So in other words, if they get it from that point forward, they should be punished. But this had been rewritten to say, women who have had abortions should be punished. And that brings up a question for me, which I've long thought that some of these more radicalized, um, lawmakers might try and put in.

And some States, some more radical States might actually try and put this in, which is if you've had an abortion in the past, are they going to try and retroactively go after you, whether it's legally or, you know, civilly. And, you know, there's a lot of people that will say, they can't do that. It's never been done.

Well, guess what? You know, that rule book is out the fucking window now because they, you know, for 50 years said they couldn't go against Roe v. Wade because it was set in stone.

It was already there, blah, blah, blah. You know, these, these things are out the window. Now we are in a new territory when it comes to America and the laws that are being passed because of how SCOTUS is set up and because of the lawmakers that are in power right now.

And they're in power right now because of a minority that is very loud.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, it's like South Carolina was a good example. They had recently put together a bill that would redefine person, which is what they've been doing, right? To include a fertilized egg.

And in that instance, I don't believe it passed. They would have in their penal code changed it so that abortion seekers who were able to do that would be applicable for the death penalty. And there are lawmakers that have discussed doing that retroactively.

Like you said, I don't know that any bills I I'll have to look, but I don't know that any bills specifically have been presented to do that. But the fact that they're changing it is laying the foundation for those kind of things to, to happen.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. These, these things take time. So, you know, Roe v.

Wade wasn't defeated overnight. They started working on defeating Roe v. Wade 50 years ago, you know, and they chipped away and chipped away and chipped away and chipped away at it.

And these sorts of things, when I see these statements, when I see these sort of legislative bills, a lot of times they're testing the water, you know, they're, they're going to put a bill out there. That's, you know, just kind of like, Holy shit, the death penalty, but they want to see what, what, what does that vote look like? How close are they?

Okay. We're, we're, we're a little bit off on that, but if we tweak this language a little bit, we can get to the next step. Oh, okay.

Now we've gotten to the next step. We get people used to it. We give them a few years with that.

We start, you know, riling up the base all over again with some, you know, the more extreme version, and then we continue to move in that direction. And that is the really scary part about this. And again, as a Satanist, this is all about choice.

This is about bodily autonomy. But is that you pushing your beliefs on other people? Choice isn't me pushing beliefs.

[Lilin Lavin]
I ask because it's a question I get when I, when I present things like, well, personally, I believe in bodily autonomy and protecting each individual's right. Well, you're pushing your hell, right? I'm not pushing my beliefs.

If my beliefs are whether or not you want to have a baby, you should be the person to decide that. So if you want to terminate a pregnancy before you have a baby, that's your choice. If you want to have a pregnancy, gestate, and give birth to a baby, then great.

Do that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I'll take, I'll take it one step further than that. When it comes to choice, I will be the first person to stand next to somebody who does not want to have an abortion, but somebody is trying to force them to have an abortion and say, no, this is her choice.

I don't give a shit what you want. She wants to have this baby. That is her choice to do.

And so it works both ways. Choice works both ways. Just because we say you should have choice doesn't mean that we're looking to go out there and have everybody have mass abortions and shit like that.

You know, or if, if there was a law that was trying to be passed that said, if you had more than two kids, because, you know, let's say we're, we're worried about, um, you know, population explosion. If you have more than two kids, you have to have an abortion. I would be completely against that.

I would be fighting that tooth and nail because again, you're taking away people's choice.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we've seen that actually play out in other countries where they've enacted that. And it disproportionately affected, um, females that were being born because people wanted male years. And so horrific things would happen.

Um, and these people did not often have a choice. A woman would give birth to a child. The child would be the, the, you know, illegal, right?

It was one more than they were supposed to, or then you would have, you know, the instance where the didn't want that particular sex. And so I read horrific things, um, about what they did to, to deal with that situation. And it was just, it was horrific.

And I don't ever want to see that. Do I believe that there are population issues for the human species? Sure.

Uh, but I would never, ever be the one to say that like, because of that, you get to now only have one or two kids and then you're cut off.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, again, I just, I keep coming back to, to choice and the fact that they're setting the groundwork, they set it in their ruling. This brings into question everything from gay marriage to contraception.

We've already seen a couple of contraception bills try to pass.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it was bizarre. I think one, um, one representative even may have said something along the lines of it. It's forced on couple of married couples.

And I was like, what, what happened in your state? Do you get married? And then with your certificate, you get your first, um, packet of birth control pills.

And now you have to take that until told otherwise. I mean, where is it forced on anyone?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. They, they, this whole rewriting of the definition of words really bothers the hell out of me. It pisses me off.

Choice is not force again, what they're doing now with not allowing abortions that is forcing people to be pregnant. They are forcing it. And then they'll go, Oh, well, they didn't have to have sex.

Well, sex isn't always a choice. You know, there are instances where it is a choice, but just because you enjoy sex, just because you have sex does not mean that you are obligated to get pregnant.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And, and there are a lot of, again, you're right. When people are in a situation where they're forced, especially when, you know, rape incest, things like this, that, that shouldn't even be a debate whether or not you have to, you don't have to have your rapist child.

That that's not appropriate. You don't get to traumatize people for your own selfish conscience. But, you know, even if you, you do want to eventually have kids, no one should tell you how many kids or when you should have kids or, and sex is a very important relationship.

Screw the marriage part. If you want to have a healthy relationship, sex is a very important thing to be able to do it. It brings closeness.

It provides, you know, healthy endorphins. It helps with a lot of health benefits, but it also brings two people closer together. And it's not at all to pick on people that are asexual because obviously they exist too.

Um, so this is just not applied to those particular individuals, but those that are sexual beings, um, it's natural to want to enjoy sex and you shouldn't say, well, a consequence of that is pregnancy and you're just going to have to cope with it. That's not fair. Plenty of people do not want kids and that's okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
Sex is not for procreation. And the only instances of people that I've heard use that they use a, a religious, you know, doctrine.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm sure it exists outside of that, but you're right. I don't know that I hear it.

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't hear it outside of the religious community. And again, keep your religion to yourself. If you do not want to have sex until marriage and you look at sex as only for procreation, good luck.

Cool. Might be a little bit of a boring marriage. Um, you know, but that is again, your choice to do.

You have that choice when you take choice away and you take that choice away based on religious dogma or doctrine or whatever you want to call it. You are entering into a theocracy and that gets very dangerous very quickly. And you know, I mean, you could go down all sorts of paths with that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or it's like stupid things. Again, let's go back to Texas for a minute. In 1973, they added an obscenity statute where you, you could only have so many sex toys.

So it's not just dildos. I know often people just say dildos.

[Tommy Lavin]
They call it the dildo law.

[Lilin Lavin]
The dildo law. And which is funny, right? If dildos are banned or more than, I think it's sex toys.

I'm not sure. Six or seven sex toys, sex toys, all, all toys. But if, you know, we could count Ted Cruz as a giant mass of dildos and he would have to leave the state.

So, um, but, uh, you know, it was, it was never formally repealed, which is interesting. Um, there was a 2008 district judge who released a report declaring it to be, uh, unconstitutional and unenforceable. But at the same time, they just didn't think enough of it to take it off the books.

And this is the same statute that talks about things like, um, anal sex and stuff like that being immoral.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, um, yeah, they, they equate, um, anal sex, oral sex to, um, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
I have normal, I have normal sex.

[Tommy Lavin]
I think they call it sex is what they call it in the bill.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, okay. Again, you have very boring marriage. I'm, I'm very sorry about that, but because you have a boring marriage doesn't mean that you get to force everybody else to have a boring marriage.

[Lilin Lavin]
But this goes back to what we were talking about, where if you try and tell people how they can have, if they have to have families, right, no one has to have a family, you know, when they can have children, maybe they are a lot of people that seek abortions are actually married people. Um, and it's just because some of them didn't want kids in the first place. And they made that very clear.

Um, some of them did, but they weren't ready yet. Some of them just, you know, had kids and didn't plan on having additional ones because they just didn't have the resources. So there's a lot of different things that happen in those situations.

And I think that people miss the reality for people. If you are in a socioeconomically disadvantaged situation, you know, if you were to become pregnant, you can't necessarily have that child. Or if you're, you know, someone that was in the process of, you know, um, you were transgender male, and you were in the process of going through transition, there have been instances, I actually know someone that they became pregnant, it shouldn't have happened.

Um, and so we have this trans male that ends up pregnant, they weighed their options, and then they decided to go ahead and have the pregnancy, they decided to gestate their pregnancy. And it in that process, they had to reduce hormones and things like that. They went through a lot of gender identity issues, because it was very offsetting to the things that they saw themselves as and the fact that they in in all and for all intents and purposes are a male.

And to go through that was incredibly just disorienting and upsetting. And you know, they did that, that was their choice. But for other individuals that are in that process, that find themselves in that situation, nobody should be able to say, well, now you have to do it, you know, you had the sex, now you have to have the baby.

And that's, that's such crap, that individual chose that. But that's just it, that was their choice. And then they were able to, you know, complete their transition process.

And then now, you know, have their their kid and all that. And they were happy with that. But other people shouldn't be forced into that.

[Tommy Lavin]
And some people don't have have children, because they they carry, you know, some sort of a gene that they don't want to pass down to their children, you know, so they they make a choice not to have children, and they get on birth control.

[Lilin Lavin]
And sometimes birth control doesn't work with even a like, there's some antibiotics that you can take that will nullify the effects of your birth control. And I honestly, I can't tell you that I've been warned about that. Maybe if I would have read like the little pamphlet that comes from the pharmacist, but I know people don't generally just sit down and and pile through that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So you know, they don't say, Oh, here's your here's your bottle of penicillin. And oh, I see you're on the pill.

By the way, if you take this while you're on the pill, you might get pregnant, because it's going to nullify the, you know, they generally don't do that. So maybe if you have a really good pharmacist or a really good doctor, they will, but I'm going to say the majority of them do not do that. And again, it all comes back to to choice and up, you know, again, and I've been reading a lot of this, this sort of noise, I call it noise, it's really bullshit lately.

And it is being pushed by again, the evangelicals, which is where spousal rape is, okay, where they believe that as and they're teaching, it's women teaching women this sort of shit, that if you're married to a man, you are his property, and it is your duty to have sex with him whenever he wants, whether you want to or not. And if there was one story, it was reading something, it was somebody's experience. And she said no, she went to sleep, and she woke up and he was having sex with her.

And the answer to it from these evangelical women was like, it was her fault. And it's like, no, that is rape. Now, if she would have gotten pregnant, then they would have also, you know, pushed on her how that's a gift from God.

And she should she should have that child. Well, maybe she didn't want to have a child. Maybe she's made it very clear, even before getting married that she didn't want children.

And this man thought, well, I take ownership of you when we get married, and I want children. So I am going to force that on you. Right?

That's not right. Again, you're removing people's choice. And as a Satanist, choice is so important.

It's fundamental. And I take it as far as to say, when I see other Satanists that are against choice, I somewhat question, you know, are you are you truly a Satanist? Because that's like, so fundamental.

It's almost like I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in Jesus.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, I mean, I mean, yeah, again, I think I've been pretty vocal, even pretty vocal, none of us get to decide other people's Satanism, we don't know. But you're right, there are things that it makes it very hard. If you don't believe in consent, that's not going to work.

If you don't believe in bodily autonomy, it's probably not going to work. Because the individual is one of the most important things to consider in everything you do. And then you get into well, if you believe in individuals, then how can you be against, you know, the right for a child to be born?

Let me tell you how that fetus relies on the individual that is giving it all the nutrients that is providing their body at risk to their life at the end of the day, in order for it to come into the world. And it's not individual, it is it is not an individual until after it has been born. And so then you get the other folks that like to come at you and say, well, you know, one year olds are very, they're very needy, they need their parents, they can't live on their own.

Right. But I'm not telling you to go on and harm your child, you are now obligated, you you had a child, and you take care of it. If you cannot take care of it, then you are obligated to then put it up for adoption or something like that.

This is a living person. You're right, they are dependent. They're not technically fully autonomous at this point.

But they are an individual.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But once they're born, right, they're, they're not like their entire essence isn't isn't sucking your, you know, all your nutrients out of your body.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, it's like, I'm sorry, nobody talks to you about the realities of pregnancy, I will tell you as a person who has been pregnant and heard all the crap about Oh, it's so wonderful. You're gonna Oh, you're just gonna love it. It's just it's amazing.

Let me tell you, there's great parts about it. But for the most part, it sucked. I mean, my experience, my experience, like I was morning sickness for like, freaking five months, it was miserable.

And it's, I was glad for it. I like the end result. I love my kids with all my heart.

Um, but it's not easy. And awful things happen. Like, you know, the defecating on yourself in front of like random strangers in the hospital, not cool, would like zero out of 10 do not recommend.

But these are the things that they don't talk to you about. Why? Why would some individuals want to do that?

Some people don't want to do that. And that is okay. Um, you know, I've also I'm an individual that's had abortions, I know what that process is like, I can speak on that, because I have been through it.

And it is not something that you just do willy nilly, you think it through you decide, is this something that's going to do I need to do this? Is this what I need for myself and my life and need being my mental health is affected, my my life is affected, then, you know, not just the base stuff, like truly affects your life. And so when you weigh those things, you you've made a very well thought out decision, for the most part, you know, you don't just rush into that.

And it is a process, but it is a process that you afterward you go, okay, I feel okay with it. I know why I did it. And it was what I needed him, you know, for myself.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I use this, this statement a lot. And I think it comes into play here as well, because you see so many lies told about pregnancy and abortion and things like that.

And, again, if you have to lie, to make your political or religious point, you are on the wrong side of that argument. And you know, it and it, you know, you hear these outlandish stories, like, you know, Planned Parenthood went onto the street and grabbed a pregnant person and dragged them in and force. Nobody was forced into an abortion.

[Lilin Lavin]
I will say that there is there is psychological coercion that does happen. And it leads those who have had the abortion under those pretenses to feel extreme resentment. And I get that I am not in any way taking away from people that have had that experience, where a partner or an individual in their life made it very clear that with without doing that, I'm leaving you, I'm, you know, the things that people will say in an abusive situation on to put you in a situation like that.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's not the doctor. No, the doctors didn't run out into the street, say, Oh, my God, that that lady looks like she's about four months pregnant, go grab her, go grab her and bring her in here. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna do an abortion on her when she doesn't want one.

Again, if you went there, you went there, generally through a group of people that were yelling and screaming and shouting at you the whole time, calling you horrible names, you went in now they, you know, most of these make you listen to the you know, they try and do everything possible because these lawmakers have made these bills to make you feel as bad as absolute possible, right? In order to make your decision. So if you've made that decision, it is a consensual decision.

Now, whether a partner has forced you into that, that's a whole different thing. And I go back to, I would stand with that person and say, No, that's her body, her choice. She wants to have the baby.

Get the fuck out of here.

[Lilin Lavin]
When I'll make it very clear, there are places where abortions are forced on individuals. I know there's a situation in Nigeria, the Nigerian army would do Yeah, I mean, we're talking America, but let's talk America. Actually, let's talk about some of the camps that they have people in at the borders, and the sterilization that happens to individuals on on requested on being honest to them, the things that folks look this stuff up.

I'm not talking conspiracy craziness. There are people that have tried to legally come into this country and illegally. And I hate that term.

But there are people that have tried to come here for the chance at a better life, and been put in a situation where they were forced sterilized. And this is not only done to people that are immigrating here. There were situations where communities of color were put in in situations where they too were forced sterilized.

There was a program I believe in them. And don't quote me on this. But I know there was a program, I think it was in the 80s, where people that were going through like needing assistance programs where they had limits, and they they did, after so many births, forced sterilize, they did not get the chance to decide that I actually, I actually saw somebody go through that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Now, I didn't know this person, they were a roommate in the hospital where this person had a child. So they were the next bed. And it was like her fourth or fifth kid or something like that.

And during that process, they forced sterilized her, you know, so and yet a lot of times, these are the same lawmakers. These are the same lawmakers passing all these pro-life anti-abortion laws. But yet, well, hold on, if you're of a different nationality, or a certain skin color, or something like that, then all of a sudden, it's okay to force sterilize you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Wait, what? Right? No, that's the same kind of twisted mentality that there was a list at one point for care providers for abortion services, it was like a blacklist, where people would have it.

And it did actually result in the death of individuals that were care providers for abortion clinics. You know, you can't sit here and scream at me how life is precious and important if you are willing to, to kill individuals to prove your point. And their justification is, well, it stopped, you know, the babies from being killed.

No, you killed people, you killed people, you murdered people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, like actual living, breathing, walking, talking people. Yeah, not not an embryo, not a fetus, you killed people, right? You know, and it's just, this subject, I can, I can literally go on and on forever, because it just, it pisses me off so much.

It infuriates me that we as a country allowed this to happen. We allowed this country to move backwards 50 years at the least. And again, they're not done.

And and religious liberty, all of this sort of stuff is on the line, right? And, you know, to to people that say, Well, you know, as as a satanist, you you shouldn't, you shouldn't take a political stance. You know, what happens when people are fighting a war, and you sit by passively, they walk right over you, and they take over.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, inaction is still an action. Yeah, it's still a choice. And all of us that have a strong feeling about this, I encourage you to educate yourself on the where people stand, and whether or not they align with with where you stand.

And if you want that for yourself, or if you're a parent for your children, you know, I, we have four daughters, all of them are affected by this. And the fact that we live in Texas, or, you know, we have kids here in Texas, I have a married daughter, who at one point may decide they would like to have a family. And if there are complications, there's so many risks.

And that is terrifying, because you just don't know what kind of care they're truly going to receive because of these laws.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I can tell you it is it is very scary to be a father to daughters in in this country, period. Right. But especially in states like Texas, you know, where it is just so much of our laws are are based off of religion, our lawmakers, for the most part in Texas, a geo Texas GOP are dominionist.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And if you don't know what that is, please do look it up. It's kind of wackadoodly doo.

But a lot of the leaders in our state are definitely are definitely dominionist. And they have a thing called a seven mountain mandate. And what that comes down to is they want religion to be the de facto law here on earth that God's kingdom lives here on earth.

And it should be like everything we do based on God's laws. Right.

[Tommy Lavin]
And so you know, you Alright, let me let me I'm gonna kind of go a little philosophical. I'm gonna go a little bit religious here. Okay.

So if you are, if your entire argument against abortion is that every child is is a gift from God, no matter the circumstances that it was, you know, conceived, every child is a gift from God. Well, wouldn't that then also mean that we need to make things like IVF illegal? Because that wasn't a gift from God.

That was something that was, again, it's sort of the reverse of an abortion, right? You know, they implanted embryos into a woman. Well, if abortion wasn't sanctioned by God, why is IVF?

[Lilin Lavin]
Right?

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, so they kind of want to play both sides of this field. And it's like, no, if if every child is truly a gift from God, you know, and, and, and life happens at conception, then, you know, and if the only reason for sex is pre procreation, then IVF should be out the door. Viagra, sorry, out the door, your little wee wee doesn't work anymore.

[Lilin Lavin]
It was God's choice that at the age of whatever that happened, you are now sorry, you know, when we want to make embryos living, like individual people that count as people who makes decisions for those embryos, you know, that are the frozen ones, you know, they want to be frozen. I mean, we don't even know.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, and another so if life happens at conception, does that mean a woman on on the way home from a club where she had sex with a guy and could possibly be pregnant? Can she take the HOV lane?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, I mean, because someone did actually argue that. So yeah, I may have been here in Texas as well.

[Tommy Lavin]
But according to Texas law, there's two people in that car.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, based on that anyone that had a uterus, feel free to then say, I don't know, who know, I can't, you know, definitively say so.

[Tommy Lavin]
So then I also see the arguments that anybody without a uterus isn't a woman. Okay. So does that mean your mother who had a hysterectomy is no longer a woman?

Have you told your mom? She's no longer a woman. Yeah, you know, it goes into this really sick sort of, you know, women are vessels for creating children, you know, yeah, women that the purpose of women is that they are a vessel for creating life today on patriarchal misogynistic things, we should not say no shit.

I mean, but this is this isn't shit that's being like, you know, talked about, like, secretly whispered in the corners and stuff. This is out loud ships shouted out loud at churches and not at like little bitty. Oh, those are the really weirdo sort of churches.

These are like your mainstream evangelical big churches that shout this stuff from the rooftop shout many things I didn't think people should be out there able to say from a pulpit.

[Lilin Lavin]
But that is neither here nor there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
I challenge people that have religious basis for these things to be taken away. What are you doing to promote reproductive awareness? What are you doing to help with comprehensive health care?

What are you doing to help with ensuring that people have access to service to prevent pregnancy if your goal is to prevent abortion in the first place? What programs are you helping to support to ensure that individuals who become pregnant that you feel should be forced to have children as far as social service? And I'm not saying social services, like the I'm saying social food programs and food programs.

I mean, there are legislators who have literally said, I'm sorry, but kids do not deserve lunch programs.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that's why this they're forced birthers. This this whole term of pro-life is bullshit. Yeah.

Because if you're pro-life, that doesn't end when the fetus is born and becomes a child. Pro-life means, okay, there is now life here. And we are obligated to care for it obligated as a state because we as a state, we obligated this person to have this child.

You know, we're now obligated if they don't have enough money to to help with food stamps or, or something like that, or school programs. I mean, they're taking in Texas, they're trying to take away school lunches.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I believe one of the Dakotas that may have in North Dakota, they have the legislators have a program where they get food. But they did not want to provide that for school kids. And I'll be the first to tell you, when I was a child, not as an adult, when I was a child, I grew up on welfare programs, I had a very shitty home life.

And we had like shit for money. So we would have actually received care boxes that were like put at our apartment complex so that we could eat and the stuff in there is not great, but it's better than nothing at all. And I ate food from school lunch program, school breakfast program.

And I grew up on the East Coast, I grew up in New York. So they have very different social programs there. And they do advocate for a lot more than southern states and other extreme conservative states do.

But it wasn't for those things, I would not have eaten, I'll be very honest, there was there was months I would not have eaten my what do you want to call her the birth giver person, who, you know, was not a mother, but that person would disappear. And I'm not talking like, Oh, I'm 15 years old, and I have no parental supervision, like seven, eight, there was a point in time where she had just had a child. And I think summer vacation showed up.

And that my my now sister was probably a few months old at that point. And she just left. And I had the whole summer to take care of a new baby.

And I was eight years old.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, and again, this is this is why these these programs where you force people one way or the other is is just wrong. You know, and you cannot use religious doctrine to push law. I know I say this over and over and over and over and over again.

But it's true. The minute you start using religious doctrine to push laws, that becomes a very slippery slope. And you start entering into theocracy.

And then where does it go next after that, and it really depends on who gets elected, and who continues to get elected, and how loud is that minority crowd, extreme minority, because they're very loud. So they make it sound like there's more and you mean the Marjorie Taylor's and the Bober to the world? Yeah.

And there's too many Americans that just they don't speak up. They don't agree with them.

[Lilin Lavin]
But they don't speak up. And by freaking gosh, you guys do that. You don't have to be on social media to do it, talk to your friends and share your opinion.

And maybe if you're so inclined, get get out there and vote. I know that sounds so stupid and superfluous. But voting still at this point in time does actually accomplish some things.

And until it doesn't, I say we try and ride that all the way down.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no, I would. I would agree with that. I think, you know, everybody should talk about it on the last podcast.

I really, truly believe that, you know, the the conservative right is very much afraid of Gen Z.

[Lilin Lavin]
They should be.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I think Gen Z will do a lot more voting wise than then, you know, we saw with millennials. Yeah, I truly do believe that Gen Z is the type of generation that is like no screw this shit. You're taking rights from me and other people.

And that's not okay. And we're gonna we're gonna vote your ass out of office. I do really hope that in some way, shape or form, we are able to bring back either Roe v.

Wade or or something like it and actually codify it. It shouldn't be different in all the states. You know, I totally I you know, these people they they they claim this is the other one that's really funny to me is they claim to be libertarians.

And if you're claiming to be a libertarian, and at the same time, at the same time, you're looking to take away people's bodily autonomy, you need to go to the dictionary and read the definition of a libertarian because you are going against the very fundamental thing that libertarians are against. And especially if you're using the government to do that. You are not a libertarian.

You are an extreme religious fanatic that is playing with a word and you're trying to make yourself look cool by using a term that is the exact opposite of what it actually stands for.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm gonna I'm gonna take this moment to shamelessly plug a TST service. Yes, I do know that there are controversies and I'll address that but TST health provides free religious telehealth medication, abortion care, that is courtesy of the satanic temple, you can absolutely provide financial assistance to that they do have TST health.org. This service is provided for those who have deeply held religious beliefs that feel that abortion is the correct thing for them and their body.

There is a ritual that goes along with that ministers are able to and happy to go over that with you. The ritual has nothing to do with the killing of said fetus. The ritual is for the individual seeking the abortive care to ensure that they are supported in that know that they have that right as an autonomous individual to to do that.

And so it is not about joyfully doing the abortion because you want to harm infants. It is about celebrating the individual and helping support them in their choice.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And that's what the ritual is about. It's about choice has nothing to do with I know Christians will spin it up as Oh, look, it's saying this child sacrifice bubble and it has nothing to do with any of that.

It's about choice. And that's what it's reaffirming is your choice.

[Lilin Lavin]
I will also make a fun reference to the fact that it comes out of Sam sack and it is Samuel Edels mom virtual abortion clinic. You know, in honor of Samuel Alito, who was the big douche that decided that this was a good thing to to go after.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So you know, sometimes sometimes there's consequences to things that you do. And those consequences could be having an abortion center named after you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I applaud it. I think it was fantastic. If you want to know more about it.

I'm not going to go into all the details here because it is not my program. But tst health dot org has all the answers. I have a great FAQ section.

And there are people that are more than happy to assist you with more information on that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So I know we're we're running up on an hour I I knew when we we hit this I I said, you know, I was like, we're gonna struggle to keep this one at 45 minutes, or something like that, just because there's so much here. There's so many things to, to cover.

And, you know, it's such a, it's such a, it's such an emotional subject, right? It really is an emotional subject because of that. There's a lot there.

I mean, our notes were like eight pages long, there was a lot to consider.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I did want to make sure to make it clear we weren't here trying to tell people that this is like something as a Satanist, you have to be willing to do or anything. The pro choice part, though, I feel like that makes a lot of sense. And it really means choice.

And it means supporting people who want to have pregnancies and who don't want to have pregnancies. And it means supporting individuals regardless of of that decision. So as a community, I feel like we have the right to draw lines and say that we will not allow you to push us back into a place where we don't have choices.

And you know, one of the reasons we have that metaphorical literary character of Satan is because they were willing to push against the authority of the time, based on whatever you want to look at, that maybe it's God or whomever, they were fine to challenge that authority and say, well, wait, don't you have a don't you have things you have to consider? You know, what about rights? Well, choice is one of the most fundamental rights.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it really is. And it's supposed to be the right for every person in America, you know, and again, I know other countries, they there's problems in other places in the world. But do we want America to be run by a religious theocratic?

You know, look at Afghanistan being run by the Taliban? Is that what we want? Do we want to hear in America?

Yeah, no, you know, just on the Christian side? No, we don't want that. There are people that do there are people that think they do.

They don't quite realize the ramifications of that. And so I am very passionate about this point. And I'm, I'm very passionate about the abortion.

You know, the change in abortion laws, especially with the other laws and rights that are on the line, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
I do personally, I'm going to be the positive person here and say, I do not believe that this will stand. I do feel that at some point, this will roll back and people will again, have the right to choose what is right for them, their lives, their bodies. But we we just right now we have to keep the pressure on and ensure that those who are making these laws know that we as people are unhappy.

And it's we as people who are the ones that make up this country.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, and we have to be just as loud if not louder than our opposition. For so long, we the for so long, people were quiet, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
They were comfortable. And it believed a lot of people on the other side of things are often very into decorum and how you treat people. I'm incredibly cognizant of treating people the way that they choose to treat me not treat them how you want to be treated.

That is a more of a different group of beliefs. I believe in treating people the way they treat others. And so I treat people in a way that I definitely would want to be treated.

But it's just these people are telling me did they want other people deciding what their private health care decision should be? Is this the precedence that they truly want to set? If I don't agree with you being able to have a medical procedure?

Is that my right? If I don't think like if I'm going to hold you to Well, God made me perfect. Well, then no contacts, no glasses, no breast implants.

No. Yeah, you're not doing I'm sorry, you're already perfect. You already said so and no extra help for you.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And if you have cancer, that's perfect cancer, because it came from God.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's so painful.

[Tommy Lavin]
Okay.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, no, I understand what you're saying. That's what you're saying.

[Tommy Lavin]
But that's the that's what I mean is sometimes you just have to be like, you have to just say it the way it is.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, I know. Does this make sense to you? Are you okay with what God gave it to you?

I mean, yeah, unfortunately, Jim Henson, you know, I grew up love Jim Henson died because of Christian science. That shit is an oxymoron. I don't I don't give a shit.

If that's the name of the fucking religion. Christian science really pisses me off. But that's a different that's a different network.

[Tommy Lavin]
So all right, well, you know, I think, again, this is our second episode. So we're gonna continue to work get better at these. Hopefully.

We knew this would be a long one. You know, if you listened all the way through, thank you. Thank you.

You you deserve, you know, hit us up on on Twitter and tell us Hey, I listened to the whole thing. I will give you a thumbs up and I'll give you a little congratulation emoji and all sorts of shit. I'll be like, holy shit.

Thank you. So yeah, no, if you honestly listened to the whole thing, if you didn't, and you only caught parts of it, cool. I hope the parts that you caught were meaningful, and helped you understand, you know, kind of as a satanic couple, how we look at these types of subjects, and how passionate we are about that as well.

[Lilin Lavin]
Someone that loves feedback. If you think of something that we discussed, and we could have discussed it in a way that would be more helpful to you, let us know that too. I'm love feedback.

And I'm always happy to hear from everybody.

[Tommy Lavin]
All right. Well, with that, we will definitely cut it at that point. And I wish you a Hail Satan.

Hail Satan. And have a great day, morning, night, wherever you're at in your journey.