Ep.19: Personal Transformation Through Satanism

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.19: Personal Transformation Through Satanism

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome dear listeners to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today, as we talked about in the past, we have some guests with us. Some really good friends who are also part of our congregation, Lilibet and Nigel.

Hello.

[Lilibat]
Hello.

[Tommy Lavin]
Welcome guys. And we thought it would be a good episode to, you know, just kind of talk about their path into TST because it was a little, everybody's path is a little bit different and I thought theirs was kind of unique. And so, yeah, let's get started.

So, all right. Well, why don't you open it up? I mean, we've become pretty good friends over the last few years, or over the last year or so, I guess, maybe a few years because it was COVID time or not.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't know. Time is like sort of warped into itself. I definitely think over the last year, we've definitely gotten to know each other pretty well.

And yeah, yeah, definitely. And you know, your path was a little bit different. So maybe we can start out by saying, how did you find TST?

[Nigel Azathoth]
So yeah, so probably like a lot of people, I started kind of looking into TST and I can't exactly remember why, but it was during all the lockdowns and stuff and probably late 2020, early 2021. And I think I just, for whatever reason, started looking it up and read the the tenets. Like a lot of people have been atheist for 20 years, something like that, and never really found a good community around that.

And so we joined the, I guess at that point, it was the international organization in April of 21.

[Lilibat]
And I actually didn't know you were looking into it initially. I didn't hear about it from you until SoberFaction came up. Yeah.

And then that was my introduction to TST from you.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And that was a little bit after looking into the main organization. So in like February of 22, I joined the SoberFaction group, like the Facebook group.

And we got started with that and then started attending some meetings. I think our first one was after a Temple Tuesday service. And that kind of got us more interested in, and actually, so I guess to back up a little bit, we got sober in September of 2021.

And that was what then led us to look into SoberFaction once I somehow discovered that. And I don't know if it was just from the campaign page on the website or what. But once we got going in that, then part of the strategy for us to stay sober was to try and find some community and start getting involved in some stuff that was like outside of our normal sort of daily routine.

Because after the lockdowns and stuff, we were still a little bit isolated where we were living. So we thought, well, this would be an interesting way to sort of meet people and found out that Houston has a local congregation and started talking to you guys.

[Lilin Lavin]
Which was awesome. But a lot of people may not know, I mean, SoberFaction is one of my favorite campaigns. It does a lot of really amazing things.

But can you tell us a little bit about what SoberFaction is, what they do, kind of like what your experience has been?

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. So I guess I need to start out with a disclosure that I am modding for SoberFaction right now, which is basically that I moderate the chats in the meetings and that I can't speak for SoberFaction in any sort of official capacity. So this is basically just my personal experience.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. These are personal experiences. Yeah.

Yeah.

[Nigel Azathoth]
So yeah. So SoberFaction has been going for a few years now. Primarily, it's an online platform.

I think the private Facebook group. Dogs in the background. So primarily, the private Facebook group is the main point of contact for everybody.

And that's kind of where all of the meetings and things are scheduled. The meetings themselves are Zoom meetings. Like I said, they've got pretty much one every day.

Some days, I think like Sundays, they've got two. And they're always doing things like pop ups and whatnot, in addition to the regularly scheduled meetings. And so their general idea is that they are a peer support group that's alternative to sort of the supernaturalist groups like Alcohol Anonymous or AANA.

And they allow people who want to get sober, but don't want all of the superstition and things like that, that are involved with those groups. So they can just focus on their sobriety.

[Tommy Lavin]
And you don't have to be a Satanist to be part of SoberFaction, my understanding. Yeah, that's true.

[Nigel Azathoth]
There's a very diverse community. I don't know if I've ever seen any Christians necessarily in it. I think as long as they weren't proselytizing, I think nobody would have a problem with it.

They are very welcoming.

[Lilin Lavin]
Very nice. I know as a child growing up, my mom and some of her partners had alcoholism issues. And so I went to Al-Anon and AANA.

And then as my own personal journey, I've been involved in things like AA on and off. And it was interesting to me to see this come up. I know there are other organizations out there that sort of do a similar devoid of spiritualism sort of thing.

But this was cool because they kind of really focus on the personal empowerment and encourage people to build healthy relationships and really seek out their own real journey on this, but to support one another on that individually. Has that been your experience?

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, absolutely. They are very much against the idea that you have to submit yourself to a higher power. And this is part of the satanic sort of principles coming into it where you're responsible for your own recovery and you basically are your higher power.

And the group is there, SoberFaction as an entity is there to help facilitate you finding support with that. So either through, like for me, the Facebook group was sort of like a daily reminder where I could check it, people post if they have something going on, they can get feedback from people. But it's just sort of a way that like every day I can look through the feed from the Facebook group and sort of be reminded about why I'm still staying sober.

And like, it's just kind of like a little kick in the ass every day.

[Lilibat]
It feels more positive to me. My experience with AA and Al-Anon was a bit negative in that. I mean, they flat out said, you will fail if you don't have a higher power to get you through this.

So it's like, oh, great. Yeah, it didn't. I mean, I'm sure they also advocate for, you know, helping each other through it.

But otherwise, it was you're going to fail without this higher power. So SoberFaction to me feels more positive in that people are there for you if you need it. But they're also there to cheer you on is like, you, you can do this.

You've got this, you know, it's not you better get that, you know, whatever deity to help you or you're screwed. So I don't know, it seems less fear, fearful, fear based.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I would say less guilt based. Less guilt and shaming, because I know my experience with AA and NA also was, you know, it's almost like if you relapse, you're, you're shamed, you know, you, you've put in, let's say you put in 10 years, you know, and you've got your 10 year chip, you go out, you have a drink, you know, shit happens, you know, you know, and then you come back and they're like, oh, you got to start all over again from day one, you know, get your 24 hour chip.

And it's like, it's almost like you throw away those 10 years, and you're kind of shamed into supposedly being sober again. And to me, that didn't work with my personality. I was like, well, fuck it, if I lost that time, then what's the point?

[Nigel Azathoth]
You know? Yeah. And I've actually heard too, from from people that like the the higher power thing, sort of worked in reverse, where they felt like they, like it wasn't their responsibility if they because like, oh, they have no power over it, you know, so they just go and do it.

And that sort of like gives them an out, right? Or whatever, too. But yeah, no, they're, they do have like chips, they do the time thing, but they're not.

[Lilibat]
There's no starting over, right?

[Nigel Azathoth]
There's no just say you can if you want. That's the thing.

[Lilibat]
It's up to you. Yeah.

[Nigel Azathoth]
It's like your sobriety is your sobriety. And so, you know, if you if you have a slip up, or you have a full blown, like you go out on a bender, sort of relapse, it's kind of up to you, if you want to start that clock over. Some people don't even do a clock, you know, I mean, it's, it's really across the board.

But it's, it's up to you. And nobody's going to shame you into starting that clock over. Like, I've heard sort of analogies of like, working out in a gym, you know, that if you go to the gym for six months, and then, you know, one day, you don't go to the gym, like you don't say, Oh, you know, the next day, if you go back, you don't say you've been going to the gym for one day.

You've been going for six months, and you took a break, you know, so you don't lose all of that sort of growth that you were doing as a person during your your sober time by having a relapse. And, you know, I think, I think the general idea now is that like relapse is sort of part of the recovery process. Yeah, most people do it at some point or another.

And it's like, you know, you pick yourself up, and you learn from it, and you keep going.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Well, there was a conversation we were having at one point, and you had said, one of the things you learned, and this might not have been from sober affection, but it was in your sobriety journey was that only an addict can understand an addict, you know, and that's, that's true. You know, most people in recovery will relapse at some point, some in some way, shape or form, right?

You know, it's, it's whether you're quitting smoking, whether you're quitting, whatever it is that you're addicted to, and you're quitting it, it's normally not first try out of the gate, cold turkey, and that's it. You know, I, if anybody has, congratulations. Hell, yeah, you know, if I can pat yourself on the back, but it is a journey, you know, and it just seems like sober fashion seems to understand that.

Yeah, I would better than the experiences I had when I was younger, and I went to things like AA or NA, you know, as part of my partying and journey and all that sort of thing in my life. Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
And not, and not to detract from some of the organized religious beliefs that go into other programs, because great, if it works for you, no, no problem there. But I think one of the differences being based in Satanism, and the fact that part of the tenants with TST specifically is that people are fallible instead of, oh, we're just human, fuck it. Like, we have human moments.

We know that. We understand we make mistakes. And it's not about blaming a higher power or expecting a higher power to fill that gap.

It's about learning how to find a way to fill that gap for ourselves. And I know sober faction utilizes skills like dialectic behavioral therapy, which I actually came to know about through working with depression and different, I have a traumatic brain injury I suffered with. And so I had learned those skills because I would deal with a lot of emotional issues.

And then part of that was coping with extreme anxiety as well. And the dialectic behavioral therapy was good, but then drinking was my other coping mechanism. And anytime I had to deal with the public, that was something that I would often go to.

And when I got involved with TST, it involved dealing with the public. And so that was something I would fall back on at first because it seemed to make everything normal and calm, even though realistically it doesn't make anything normal except for your personal perception of it, right? Because it seems like you're doing better even if maybe you're actually not.

So one of the things I loved about you guys joining our congregation, and I can't say that this is the way it is for everybody, but I feel like you brought this nice sense of stability to, like, it's okay not to drink. It's okay to have fun as people and just be people. And I don't think, because, well, okay, just disclaimer, TST has been growing a lot.

And I think before you guys joined, it was a lot more friend group-like. And so, you know, partying, hanging out, things like that. And then as you started to say, well, wait, this is a religion, we're offering an opportunity for people to join as a community.

And communities based on religion are supposed to help build and be healthy environments. And so it's like, well, we can't just hang out and get together at places and get drinks. And, I mean, that's great, but that shouldn't be a focus.

And I loved having you guys come in and bring some of that, the things you've learned and share that with us. And it's been helpful to me personally. So I appreciate that.

[Tommy Lavin]
So we shouldn't do every congregation meeting at a bar.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no. Like you said, Satanism is not a requirement. So sober faction has been great, but why move into Satanism?

What was it about that that was appealing to you guys?

[Nigel Azathoth]
I mean, I think, again, like part of us, or one of the things that we were really looking for was community. And it was just hard to find any sort of community in the area, really. Like I just didn't know where to look, you know.

And again, I don't exactly know why, how I stumbled on TST or whatnot when I did.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's a thing to do when there's a pandemic.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, yeah. You just start researching stuff. But yeah, that was what caused us to reach out to the local congregation, was looking for that community.

And we were sort of guarded at first because we didn't know if it was just going to be sort of a glorified drinking club, because it very well could have been.

[Lilibat]
Well, I had a lot of probably the same thoughts that your typical folks do about Satanism. I didn't know anything about it before you started looking into it and were wanting to join. And I was like, oh, Satan is safe.

So I really didn't know anything about it. And so I was a little unsure. But yeah, once you start looking into it, reading the tenants, it's like, oh, you know, seems pretty, pretty reasonable.

And then once we started meeting people, you know, we started coming to the Zoom, the monthly Zoom meetings, and talking to folks. And I was like, these are cool people. And that was what got me interested to begin with was just, oh, these are the weirdos I've been looking for.

But I haven't ever found anywhere else.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, a lot of people say, you know, they don't become Satanists, they just discover that they've always kind of been a Satanist. Once they run into either some material, or they talk to somebody, or they meet another Satanist, and they explain what Satanism is, we're not like the boogeyman and stuff like that. And it's like, oh, shit.

It's like, when I met Lilana, I was already a Satanist. She wasn't. And it's like, oh, Satanists, those are bad people.

Those are, you know, it was like, no, no here. And, you know, and then she was like, oh, shit. Okay.

Yeah, this, this all makes sense.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, granted, back then, not to date myself too much. Yeah. There was really no options like TST. And so there were definitely stigmas attached that did have merit. There were aspects of COS Satanism, which is where I came in that I did not agree with. Which doesn't mean everyone that's in COS does just because they're there. But there's things that I personally couldn't align with.

And then when I learned what the real roots of the development of the Satanic Bible were, and then a lot of the personal issues I had with some of LeVay's stances, because eventually, it really became a religion of LeVay's philosophy. I just didn't feel like I fit in. And so when I kind of stumbled into TST, it fit with so many of the things that I felt were missing.

Not that we're political, but there are political aspects where we're actually out there trying to combat some of the ever encroaching theocratic stuff that we see all the time. But is it like, people will say, is it a cover for other devious things happening? I mean, what, in the few years you've been very involved, has it been any of the things that you were afraid it would be?

Or was it completely different from what you expected?

[Lilibat]
I mean, we can only speak to our congregation. But in our congregation, it's pretty chill. Nothing weird.

We like to play board games and watch weird movies.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And I'll say, too, kind of from what you were saying, like, if TST didn't exist, we probably wouldn't have aligned with Satanism. Definitely not Church of Satan.

I remember reading parts of the Satanic Bible when I was in high school, and I was just kind of like, oh, you know, it didn't really, I was a different person back then as well. But yeah, I really don't think, and especially if it was like a theistic thing, where people were actually believing in the devil and worshiping Satan, that would have been a no. So I think it's really just the sort of TST style of Satanism that really spoke to us.

And I think if, like I said, if it didn't exist, we probably wouldn't have looked any further into it. So yeah. So like I said, we were kind of guarded, you know, approaching the local congregation just to see what it was like.

And I think the sort of normalness of it is really kind of what was attractive, you know, that it's a bunch of, you know, people that are sort of misfits, but like, we've always felt like misfits as well. And so it was really fun to be able to meet these people, because we're like, where else would we ever have met some of the people? Like, we wouldn't have known where to go.

And like, we're all scattered across this large city, you know, different people in different suburbs. Like, it's a really large area. We all are in different, you know, there's lots of different age groups, there's lots of different, like, just people in general.

And so I feel like a lot of these people, like, we probably would never have even run into, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, everyone I've had the privilege of interacting with have been really interesting, unique people. I don't think any one person has been like another. I mean, there's similarities that we all share, but I love the difference in age, like you mentioned, the difference in mentality, the difference in philosophy, we all kind of get to grow with one another through these experiences and conversations, like our book clubs.

So that's been really fun. And then I know you guys are also parents. Does that bring something different to it for you?

Was that a challenge that you guys had to work through when you were thinking about it?

[Nigel Azathoth]
I think so. I mean, I think that sort of where we live, like, we don't, we don't disclose that we're Satanists really to anybody outside, you know, and part of that is to sort of protect ourselves and our kids.

[Lilibat]
I mean, I can only imagine a lot of parents would never let their kids talk to our kids if they...

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, like, you know, there's just a lot of sort of unfounded stigma around it. And so yeah, I think that that, that was part of it. And I mean, also, the idea that like, like I said, when we were getting sober, we, we wanted to find a community of people that we could start becoming involved in as a way to help us with our sobriety, in addition to just wanting to find cool people.

But it was like, we need to get active and like have things to do, you know, other than go to the bar, other than go to the bar or stay home and drink, you know, like, it was like, we need to have sort of a sort of be accountable for things, responsibilities, you know, things like that, outside of our just normal, like work day week and all that. And so that was a really kind of big part of it. And so we didn't really know if there would be other people with kids in the in the congregation, you know, so that was really cool to find out that there are and that there's like, sort of a whole, you get a whole lot of different perspectives just on parenting in general.

Yeah.

[Lilibat]
Well, it was the first time I ever met a group of people where everyone was like, we didn't do the Santa thing. I was like, wow, I'm not the only one. Because I've spent so many finally, my kids are they're in their teens, and I don't have to worry about the Santa thing anymore.

But that was so frustrating to me to have so many parents being like, your kid better not tell Mike, there's no Santa. People get so mad about it. And I was like, Oh, wow, everybody that I've met in our congregation didn't do the Santa thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilibat]
Again, it's just we're not drawn to the super superstitious kind of, I mean, I don't know.

[Lilin Lavin]
I know when our kids were very little, we actually did do like the Santa magic thing. But it was like this limited, they knew it was kind of a fairy tale thing. And we'd put out food for the reindeer, but it was really for the wild animals.

So we'd put like carrots and things that would disappear. And so the kids would know where it was going. But it was the ritual of doing a little night before Christmas poem and, you know, getting the see the cookies out and having cocoa together and baking.

So we would do that. But they knew as part of a ritualized story. So we never were like, Oh, this magic fat dude is gonna show up and touch his nose and pop into your, you know, room.

Yeah.

[Lilibat]
Well, I just let my kids think whatever they wanted, because they would sometimes come home and ask me like, is Santa real? And I'd be like, what do you think? And if they said yes, I'd be like, okay, and that's kind of where I would leave it.

But I was never writing Santa on gifts or anything like that.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, it was like with everything else. Like we didn't, we didn't care if other people wanted to do that. It only became an issue when they would start asking us to like, lie to their kids.

Yeah, like, you know, their thing up.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it's like, okay, now it's, now it's becoming uncomfortable, because you're asking me to actually lie to your child, right? You know, and we've always treated our children, you know, almost like adults with obviously, you know, age appropriate discussions, but we didn't treat them like we'd watch other parents with their children. And it was like, you know, why are you, you know, explaining it?

Like, why don't you just explain the truth of what, you know, whatever the situation was, and just bring the truth down to their level, you know, versus making up some lie or something like that, you know, it's just kind of always baffled me.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's the other cool thing I think about, like, sober faction people, even if they're not satanic, they have a satanic philosophy to a degree, right? Where they tend to be very honest about situations willing to work through things able to use their own cognitive skills and reasoning to sort of get to where they need to be. Is that been what your experience has been together?

Is that did you guys take turns getting into this? I mean, how has this evolved for you from sobriety to Satanism? And how has that been?

[Lilibat]
I, I guess I would say you, you have definitely done more with sober faction in the very beginning when we first got into it. I really liked it. It was I felt weird and Alan on I initially was going to Alan on because you had I thought you were the alcoholic.

And I just drank like a normal person, you know, I learned later on, I was also an alcoholic, we were just at different places on the journey, you were a little ahead than I was. But I always felt a little weird and Alan on. And then when I attended a couple sober faction meetings with you, I was like, Oh, I feel much more comfortable here.

Like I'm, I'm getting what people are saying. It's feeling more. So it's like, yeah, okay, that's.

So that was kind of cool to me kind of just helping me figure out what I was actually going through and what I needed to focus on for me. And it wasn't just, oh, I need to quit drinking, because I'm the wife of an alcoholic. It's like, I need to quit drinking, because I'm an alcoholic and the wife of an alcoholic.

And yeah, it's, you know, so. But after a little bit of time, I haven't really been as active in it as you.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And that's the, that's sort of the thing too, that, you know, like I was saying, your sobriety is your own, like, if you're good, you know, without going to meetings, and you don't necessarily need to go to meetings. You know, they also have the seven rituals that kind of dovetail with the seven tenants.

And that's getting get back to like the behavioral the dbt dbt. And, and but, but there's no requirement that you do the seven rituals, you know, you can if you if you want to, or need to, if it helps you, but you're not going to be kicked out or shamed if you don't. Again, it's another tool in the in sort of the toolbox.

And my experience first, when we first got sober, I started going to a meetings. And, and that was one of those things where I didn't really know what to expect. But it's like, you know, where I was going, where the meetings that I was going to where they met in a church, they open with the serenity prayer, they closed with everybody holding hands doing the Lord's Prayer.

And that was really surprisingly, I didn't expect that at all, like, because I had heard that, you know, a was supposed to be agnostic or whatever is when it came to specific religions. And so when everybody, you know, at the end started doing the Lord's Prayer, I was just kind of like, Welcome to the South.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that's not fair, because I will say when my mom would go, like, we lived on the east coast in New York, and they did still do. So it's not a sudden relative in California.

[Lilibat]
It's the same.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, yeah. And I don't know that it's all over the place. And I know that it's not like an official position of AA, but it seems to be pretty widespread.

And, you know, I don't know that they would necessarily I didn't, I didn't ever try to fight it. But I don't know that people would necessarily take kindly to you, asking that you don't do that, you know. But so, you know, at first, I remember telling a little about like, I'm going to, I'm going to try and overlook that, you know, I'm going to try and not make that a thing, because I need to get sober and I need to do this.

But for people that, you know, I didn't necessarily have, like, religious trauma, growing up, but for people who do, like, that's kind of a tall order to have them go, and they're trying to get sober. And now they're having to confront, you know, this, this stuff that ostensibly is not supposed to be a part of it. You know, you're like battling two fronts at once, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And a lot of people are struggling with situations like that, or other things they're working through. The drinking was the coping mechanism, and now you're trying to stop the drinking, but you're dealing with exactly what caused you to do that.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see it being a real, a real problem. And so when we started going to sober faction meetings, that was like a breath of fresh air.

Like, it was really nice not to have, like, they did what they said, you know, like, it was not going to have any sort of supernatural component, and it didn't have any sort of supernatural component. There wasn't like a gotcha at the end, you know. And so, so yeah, that really sort of drew us in, that just that they said it's sort of face value.

[Tommy Lavin]
And, and just to clarify, again, I know you can't officially speak for sober faction. But there, there's been a little bit of back and forth in news about, like, the supposed split. But TST still, I mean, sober faction is still part of TST. It was just some people left sober faction.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Right. That's correct. Yeah, there was an article recently.

And I think the way that the reporter worded it was that sober faction had splintered off from TST. And they just left it at that. Which I was that I definitely raised my eyebrows when I read that and then didn't see any clarification later on. So sober faction did not splinter off from TST. That makes it sound like the whole thing just left. And that's not what happened. There was a, there was a, a disagreement among some of sober factions leadership. And some of the leadership did leave sober faction and leave TST and started their own group.

But other members of the leadership stayed with sober faction, and are they started rebuilding and getting meetings back up and running and everything. And now it's going strong again, like it was before all of that happened.

[Tommy Lavin]
And so it's, it's amazing how people take that and they sort of spin it in their own way, because that happens everywhere, whether it's a church, a business, you know, the CEO of a company leaves, they don't say Coca-Cola split, you know, it's like the CEO of the company left and they replaced it with a new CEO. Coca-Cola is still there.

[Lilin Lavin]
The nice thing was, honestly, they left, they're doing their own thing. People are still getting the help they need. There's still a group there, good for them.

And then TST is still doing what they were doing. And we're working to just make sure people are getting what they need, which is a group to help maintain their sobriety.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I was happy about that. There's not really competition.

[Lilibat]
No, we could use more.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah.

[Lilibat]
The more, the more non-religious groups, the better.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. It's like now there's another group that people can, can go to, to get the help that they need that doesn't embrace supernaturalism and all of that stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
And so, yeah, the more, the merrier. Yeah. But yeah, the, the, the article, the Atlantic article, which went into so many interesting things, as people are newer to Satanism, how have you personally felt about these kind of infighting conversations that tend to come up so often?

[Nigel Azathoth]
I mean, it's not unexpected.

[Lilibat]
Yeah.

[Nigel Azathoth]
You know, there's a lot of people with a lot of diverse viewpoints and TST seems to kind of embrace pluralism, which I, which is again, like one of the draws for me. But when you do that, you're going to have disagreements. And part of, I think the sort of maturing process is learning how to deal with those disagreements and not, I don't know, not have maybe as much drama as there's been in some of them.

Like I'm kind of looking forward to the, the, the organization itself, learning better how to deal with those things. So that again, sort of knowing ahead of time that like these things are going to come up, like there's no avoiding it. And especially when you've got, you know, so many people who, again, like, I mean, we're basically like a, what is it like a group of non-joiners, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
It's like you've got a lot of loners and stuff.

[Nigel Azathoth]
And, and that in itself is, is, is pluralistic, you know, that you have just all these people that are very focused on individualism and seeing things their own way, and now they have to work together and that requires compromise. And I don't know, that's, you know, it's a, it's a very young organization at only 10 years. And I think that it's definitely been impressive that it's weathered what it has weathered.

But yeah, I am looking forward to sort of the maturing, the maturing, getting kind of over the growing pains, you know?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I don't know that they ever fully go away. I know when we came into, when I came into COS back when, they had tried something similar to the congregation program.

Tommy and myself actually joined that program and tried, but it did not live very long at all. They couldn't deal with that. So I was very proud of the fact that despite the very diverse nature of TSD, every congregation I've interacted with is done differently.

The leadership is formed differently. The way that they go about their business is very different. And yet there's a very common undercurrent to it where the people are there to accomplish goals and those goals are to create a religious environment that's based on the tenets that provides a community that gives people support and a sounding board for life.

And that's, no matter where you go, that tends to be what's happening. And granted, some of the congregations have issues. We all have issues.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But we learn to work through it. And I think that's what's been nice. So there is a sign of maturity that I think is hopeful.

And then you guys decided to come in on leadership council and be part of that, even though you're still getting your feet under you in some ways. But you've been here for a while now. And so it was natural for you to move into that.

Was the impetus of that to kind of help shape things? Or what was your interest in being more involved at that level?

[Nigel Azathoth]
I mean, honestly, I think that a lot of it was, again, just wanting to have sort of responsibilities that we needed to be there for, just personally. And then also, yeah, just the idea that we could help sort of shape the congregation and sort of respond to what the congregants are looking for. You know, that's what's really interesting to me is to kind of make sure that we're doing things that they're interested in and that are benefiting the congregants.

So yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So during one of our other discussions, you brought up and I found this really interesting that sober faction, although maybe it's not in the charter, you know, again, we're not officially speaking for sober faction, but there's people in sober faction that aren't just drug or alcohol addicts, there's behavioral addicts, and they kind of treat everything the same. So like AA is specifically focused on alcohol and you get some drug addicts in there, but then for that, you've got NA, but somebody with say sex addiction or something like that wouldn't probably be welcomed there. Whereas in sober faction, it seems at least the impression that I've got is that if it's an addiction, then sober faction is there to help you through that addiction.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. That's been my experience as well. There is a very wide diversity as far as what addictions people are dealing with.

There's gambling, there's sex, there's porn, there's obviously alcohol and drugs. But yeah, I think that there's sort of an underlying common thread where an addiction is an addiction and it's usually born of something deeper. And so that's kind of the unifying thing.

And I'm not a therapist or anything like that, but this is just, again, just kind of what I'm gleaning from listening to people. And so yeah, so they're all involved. They're all involved in the meetings.

Sober faction has an allyship program where if you're reaching out on say the Facebook group, you put out a post and then you have to kind of wait for people to respond. And you don't necessarily know who's going to respond. It's kind of a group thing and you have to put all that out there sort of publicly.

I think you can post as an anonymous user, but it's still, it's not as personal. Whereas with the allyship program, you're sort of matched with somebody who is also undergoing sobriety or dealing with an addiction and they can kind of help you one-on-one. And there's not a student teacher sort of dichotomy of the sponsorship stuff.

[Tommy Lavin]
I was going to just say sponsorship with AA, but that's more of a, like you said, a student teacher.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And there's sort of a power dynamic there. And with this one, with the allyship thing, it's like everybody's on equal footing and you're just helping each other.

And again, it's, I think it goes back to more of this idea that sober faction is sort of there to help facilitate people helping themselves. You ultimately have to show up to the meetings, you have to post, you have to reach out for an ally, all that thing, all of that stuff. But that's what sober faction is there to at least help you with.

So you're not having to just white knuckle everything on your own. Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
I kind of like that because when you don't have that power dynamic shift, I think maybe it helps avoid some of the toxic things that you tend to see with that displaced, I've been doing this forever and I'm this mentor and I'm better than you essentially. And it's not, it's not geared that way.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. I spilled more wine on my shirt than you drink in your life. I've heard some horrible things like when I was a teenager and going to AA and NA and I was like, you really think that helps people?

And so the other thing, I mean, and I'm going to ask you more your personal opinion on this, things like harm reduction, because I remember when I went to AA and I think things might be a little bit different now, but it was like, you know, if you were an alcoholic or you were a drug addict, you were forever and ever and ever and ever and ever alcoholic and drug addict, you could never touch anything else again. So if you were an alcoholic and you smoked marijuana, you know, maybe to help you get past something, but it, marijuana never ruined your life.

It took over that, but they'd still consider that a relapse. Whereas I know in discussions with people some people consider that more harm reduction and it's not necessarily looked at as a relapse or something like that. And it's okay to do so long as marijuana again, doesn't take over your life, whatever it is that you're doing.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And that's been my understanding from talking with people as well, that I think that there are, there's a definitely a diversity of views regarding that particular thing. But I know that there are people who practice harm reduction and who advocate for it as sort of another tool to be used where like for some people, you know, they have to go completely nothing, you know, they can't use anything.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Nigel Azathoth]
It's like full on sobriety. And for other people, it's like, they, I think some of the stuff is, is viewed sort of like with drugs that people don't necessarily think of as drugs, like coffee and stuff, like you're still drinking coffee and still smoking, you know, nicotine and things like that. So things like marijuana are sort of used in that kind of capacity that like, this is something that helps people to not use the drug that's been ruining their lives.

Right. You know, it's like, so that's, that's sort of the dynamic or whatever with harm reduction.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I always, I always found that really ironic when somewhat hypocritical when I would go to AA and it's like, they would, you know, teach that whole, you can never touch anything else again. But it's a room full of people smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, drinking 12 cups of coffee and all that.

So it's like, well, those are all addictive substances too.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Right. Yeah. And that's right there is like a form of harm reduction, right?

Like you're smoking and drinking coffee so that you're not, you know, it helps you to not drink alcohol.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or you become like an exercise addict or you sex addict, you know, there's lots of ways people cope with one addiction gets changed out for another.

[Lilibat]
So something else that gives you that dopamine.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, exactly. So I think we all kind of use harm reduction to different degrees, you know, understanding that that just means reducing whatever was causing the massive amounts of harm or finding a more ethical way to kind of work through that. And, you know, there are positive ways like joining communities and creating connections and friendships and moving on in ways that are seen healthy.

And then there's finding ways to no longer drink, you know, every day, and maybe you're smoking marijuana on occasion. As long as you're not unable to live your life, I think, and you're doing things positive for yourself, for your family, and you're healthy. That's up to you, you know?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I think you need to be aware also of and you brought this up in a discussion we had where you considered yourself a high functioning alcoholic.

[Lilibat]
Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
So you can still be an alcoholic and not or drug addict or something and not have it destroying your life. But you're still, you know, addicted and doing things in a way that you shouldn't be doing them. But you're just high functioning at that point.

You haven't quite made it to the next level.

[Lilibat]
And it's really easy with alcohol, because so many people drink. And it's a really common thing at parties or get together social. So it's very easy to say, Oh, I don't think I drink more than Sally.

And she's fine. You know, so it's, it's pretty easy to talk yourself out of that, accepting that you are an alcoholic. But yeah, I definitely drink more than most.

And I learned through I had a counselor for a bit when we first quit drinking. And I went to her saying, Oh, I'm the wife of an alcoholic. And after I would tell her about my behaviors with alcohol, she was like, I think you might be.

So yeah, and just kind of it still is weird for me to say it. But I do realize it.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't think it ever stops being weird. You know, I grew up as a child of alcoholics, like, Oh, I'll never be like those people. And you know, that's awful.

And then you slowly start drinking and then adding more drinks and realizing you need drinks to cope with, you know, the drinks that you had. So yes, and then it just kind of spirals out of there. Because I know for a long time, I would do that, like I said, anxiety, social interaction was super stressful.

So of course, I'm going to coast through it by having a couple of drinks. And then before you know it, you're, you're doing that all the time. And then hey, you're an alcoholic, but you don't necessarily want to say it.

[Lilibat]
Yeah. When you're in your own bubble, it's hard to see yourself from the outside. So, you know, looking back now, I'm like, yeah, that I drank a lot because I drank so much to the point that we kind of couldn't go anywhere anymore.

Yeah, he drank more than me. But I also drank to the point where it's like, well, I know I'm going to get real drunk real fast. That's going to be my goal.

So I can't really even be around anybody because I don't want people to see me like that. So we would have to avoid family functions or get together with friends if it was like, too late in the day, we'll be like, well, we'll be too drunk by then. So we can't go to that.

So we were literally just slowly isolating ourselves more and more so that we could accommodate how much we needed to drink. So it's funny now to say that and be like, I'm not an alcoholic. But yeah, when you're in it, you just kind of can't quite see it for what it is.

And then like I said, I could look around and see other people that I thought were, that's an alcoholic, not me.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's hard because so much of our society is geared. I mean, there's work functions about drinking and there's social functions for drinking. And you go to a wedding and everybody's drinking.

And so, you know, and then you're not supposed to drink and drive, but you got to get to the bar and then you got to leave the bar. It's like a whole lot of weird stuff where drinking we all I mean, unquestionably is bad for our bodies and for our minds. And yet it's so ingrained in everything we do.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, I was definitely a very high functioning because I always, even when I was a teenager and going through my, I'm going to do every single drug in the book in as much quantity as I can, I still held a job. I still always showed up for work and all of that sort of stuff. You know, but you know, if there was four bottles of wine in the house, I'm drinking all four bottles of those wine that night.

If I start drinking, I could get days without drinking, but if I pop one of those open, they're all getting done. It's like, that was just the type of personality that I had. It was like, well, we're going to do this and we're going to put everything into it.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. And that's, you know, looking back for me, it's like, I think I was getting to the point where I was becoming not high functioning. You know, I was getting to the point where like, I think my job would have been in trouble.

You know, it was hard to get through the day without drinking. And I never did. I didn't, I never drank at work, but I probably would have started pretty soon after, you know, had I not stopped, like that was, that's just how it goes.

You know, it's a progressive thing and yeah, it was getting, it was getting bad, you know? And then when you, like I said, when you look back on it, you're just like, man, I can't believe like, it's such like obvious red flags, you know, but when you're in it, you're like, eh, it's not so bad, you know?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I used to tell Ellen, I was like, you know, there's, there was times where I was like, I never knew the personality that would come out when she'd get drunk. It was like, flip a coin, you know, are you going to be the really fun drunk?

Or are you going to be the, you know, not so fun drunk and, and you just never really knew. And that was, you know, one of those things that has, we talked about things and I got sober for, well, I had a medical reason. So, you know, I kind of didn't have a choice.

Well, I had a choice. I just didn't want to die. So that made it easier to quit alcohol anyways.

You know, because alcohol was the one that I continued to do because when she got pregnant with our first child, I quit all hard drugs. It was like, okay, cool. I'm quitting the hard drugs because it was my choice what to do to my body and all of that sort of stuff.

But it wasn't my choice for a child to have dad drooling on himself on the floor or something like that and not able to make them breakfast or anything, you know. But alcohol, well, that's okay. Like, you know, it's everywhere.

That's, you know, and, and so I just kind of switched and kept escalating and escalating and escalating. And then, yeah, I got a medical condition and then it made it easy to, to stop that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, having kids was good for that because we both were away from all that stuff.

And we met because I was hanging out at a club on occasion and couldn't always afford to go. So I'd wait for everybody to get out of the club and then we'd go and drink or whatever after. And then you happened to show up at this, this IHOP where I like to hang out.

We'd always meet there.

[Tommy Lavin]
About three in the morning.

[Lilin Lavin]
And yeah. And we, we partied really hard. We met, we hung out and then it was just pretty much it.

Like three months later we were married, but it was always like drinking party, have fun, drinking party, have fun. He'd go to work and, you know, I do my thing. And then that was kind of the way it worked.

Drinking party, have fun. I got pregnant. It was like, well, if you drink, I'm going to really be pissed at you because I can't drink.

So then you're like, fine, I won't do it around you. And then you're like, okay, I won't do it at all. And then, you know, it just seemed stupid.

And all the people we would drink and party, have fun with were like, oh yeah, kids are not fun. And now you're married and we don't like you. And so we kind of had to start looking at different kind of friend groups and stuff.

[Tommy Lavin]
So it was, I think that's, that's the harder thing too, is depending on your age, you know, like I would have never been able to quit drinking. Um, I shouldn't say that. It would have been a lot harder for me to quit drinking in my twenties or thirties because it's like, well, what else are you going to do?

Right. You know, it's Friday night. Where the hell else are you going to go?

But the bar, why aren't you going to bar? What's wrong? Are you sick?

Do you not feel well? Um, and then y'all brought up, and by this time I had already started, stopped drinking. So I didn't really actually experience it.

But during the lockdown where they deliver alcohol to you now, and it's like, I was like, holy shit, that would have got me in so much trouble.

[Nigel Azathoth]
I remember buying like three handles of vodka or something because there was like a threshold you had to meet, you know, you're going to order. And it was just like, oh man, this is, and they wouldn't last very long.

[Lilin Lavin]
They wouldn't last very long. You'd have thought they would have, but no, no. I went through that phase where I would have like the bottle, the big bottle of in the freezer.

And I'm the only one in my house that would drink the vodka. And I'd have my little bottle of zing zang, you know, for my little tiny splash of flavor and go through it like in a couple of days, that would be the whole thing. And you know, again, you're trying to cope with your own issues that you're not necessarily dealing with.

And that's, as a Satanist for a long time, you know, you have to be accountable. You don't want to be accountable? Well then avoid it.

And then realize it's just a lot more crap you stepped in. Now you have to wash the crap off and still be accountable. So it was, yeah, that process kind of over and over again for a while.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, so how, how long now are y'all sober?

[Nigel Azathoth]
I think we recently had you had an anniversary. Yeah. We, so we got sober and after labor day of 2021.

And so that's about two years. We're at, I think like 25 months.

[Lilin Lavin]
That's awesome.

[Nigel Azathoth]
That's cool.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Nigel Azathoth]
It's been good.

[Lilin Lavin]
I was going to say, is this one of the best experiences you've had on that process personally?

[Lilibat]
Or I've never, I had never even tried to quit drinking before. Really? I mean, I had to quit drinking twice when I was pregnant.

And that was just, I guess it was easy for me. I just didn't drink, but my husband's still drink. All of my friends still drink and it did suck.

It felt weird to me, just the sober pregnant lady going like, Ooh, okay, well this isn't fun. But by the time we quit this time, like I was really ready. I had actually wanted to quit and sort of tried a few times and felt like I couldn't.

And I was, that's when I was starting to get a little worried. Like that's weird. That's interesting.

I can't quit. What's up with that? And so when we finally did, I was really relieved and it's just, it's been great for us personally.

For me, it's like, I think I didn't realize for me how much I was toning down all of my experiences. I thought drinking made things more fun. I didn't drink to cope.

At least it wasn't why I thought I was drinking. I thought I was drinking because it made everything more fun. And, but it doesn't, I don't remember things.

I am half experiencing things because I'm groggy and trashed. And so it's been really interesting over the past two years to realize, wow, it's actually really fun to fully experience a concert, to really hear it and take it in or a movie or to go to an event and you're actually, you can remember it the next day. I mean, it's, I'm just really enjoying that aspect and all my anxiety.

I used to have a lot of troubles with anxiety and that seems to be gone. So that was something that I guess alcohol was causing. I didn't realize.

And it was different for everyone. This is just my experience to feel. It feels much better to me being sober.

So I have zero, zero desire to drink anymore at this point. So I'm really enjoying this.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's cool. I was much the same way as you. I drink, I didn't think I was drinking to cope with anything.

I drank because I thought it enhanced everything. But I look back now and I'm like, I know I went to like fucking 20 or 30 concerts between the age of 15 and 30 something. I might remember two of them.

And it's like, okay, I'm sure it was fun, but I have no memories of them. Whereas now I've gotten to a few concerts and I remember every single concert. It's a totally different experience.

I can actually immerse myself into what I'm doing and get pleasure from that because I'm actually able to immerse myself. I'm not like, whoa, yeah. And then the next day waking up, what the fuck did we do last night?

[Lilin Lavin]
Or the eternal porcelain promise where you're like, I'm never going to do this again if I could just get through this horrible hangover.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, my experience was much like you've described. Yeah.

[Lilibat]
Every night doesn't have to be like the movie The Hangover where you wake up and look at the pictures and go, what the fuck?

[Lilin Lavin]
Hey, I was there.

[Lilibat]
I remember it all.

[Lilin Lavin]
And in today's very digital world, that's like a horrible nightmare.

[Tommy Lavin]
That would have been really bad when I was a teenager. So what advice would you give? I know we're kind of coming up on an hour.

So I don't want to run too much longer. But what advice would you give people that are either exploring sobriety and maybe, like you said, apprehensive about Sober Faction being attached to TSDO? That's a satanic organization versus AA.

But then I have to go to a higher power. So would you give any advice to people?

[Nigel Azathoth]
Well, I think I would say don't discount it. So keep an open mind and read the tenets if you're apprehensive about the TST connection and kind of look into what TST does. And then there's no harm in joining the Facebook group and checking it out.

There's no harm in going to a meeting and checking that out. So yeah, if worse comes to worse and you don't like it, you don't have to do it. So that's what I guess I would say.

But just keep in mind that it's definitely an option. And like we said earlier, there are some other groups out there as well. So maybe that would spur someone to check out some of the other groups that might be a better fit for them if they have never heard of Sober Faction and want to check it out and then branch out.

Just try and find something that works for you.

[Lilin Lavin]
So there's no weird rituals involved, no Satan involved.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah, no, no. It's much like with TST where Satan is a metaphor and it's about self-empowerment and it's about a literary Satan drawn from, you guys have talked about this before on the podcast. So yeah, so even with the seven rituals, they're non-theistic rituals and they are really meant to sort of focus you and give you a purpose to kind of focus your mind and your intent on what it is that you want to get done.

Awesome.

[Lilibat]
Yeah. And as far as just tips on sobriety in general, I'm no expert, but for me, I did have to find other ways to get that dopamine because just removing it and then expecting to still be cool didn't really work. So I did start exercise.

I started lifting weights and I started drinking a little bit more caffeine. I would have a caffeine buzz that I would enjoy instead of an alcohol buzz. Did eat a lot of sugar at first.

I had to get myself weaned off of that after a while because too much sugar doesn't do well for me either. But yeah, finding healthy ways to get dopamine was what really helped me deal with that because you train your brain to get all that dopamine from that alcohol. So I needed some other ways.

So one random thing that maybe helps somebody, I don't know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Nice. So get out there and find things that bring you happy, healthy enjoyment and maybe even a community that supports what you're trying to accomplish.

[Lilibat]
Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
And just remember, if you, if you do relapse, it's part of the process, you know, don't let anybody shame you into, oh, you know, like, I love the gym analogy.

[Nigel Azathoth]
Yeah. That was a good one.

[Tommy Lavin]
That's a perfect analogy. You know, you don't go back and say, Oh, I'm starting all over. You know, I never went to the gym.

This is my first day at the gym. It's like, no, it went for six months and I missed a day. Okay.

[Lilibat]
Yeah. You could say I'm on day 106 of my sobriety journey, where maybe on day 25, there was a blip, but you're still on day 106 of the journey, if that's how you would look at it.

[Lilin Lavin]
And again, we're all fallible. So we accept our mistakes, we recognize our mistakes, and then we do what we need to move forward from that. And every mistake is really a learning opportunity if you take advantage of it.

So awesome.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, with that, I think we can, we can wrap and thank you all for coming on the podcast. Appreciate hanging out with you guys. Thank you for having us.

Pleasure. All right. Well, hell Satan.