Ep.14: Just for the HELL of it!

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.14: Just for the HELL of it!

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist-seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Over the last couple of weeks, we've touched on some pretty serious, emotional, heavier topics. So we thought we'd just kind of do a bit of a, I don't know, kind of a bit of a bullshit, nothing serious, nothing, oh my gosh, drastic type of topic.

And I thought about, what is it? Because actually we get asked this a lot of times on our Thursday meetings, because like once a month, one Thursday a month, we have, you know, just kind of like an open Zoom with people that can join in, you know, sort of ask questions about TSD and what it's like to be a Satanist. And so, you know, a lot of the questions, what is it like to be a Satanist?

Because you say Satanist, and I can guarantee you, like, close your eyes, even if you're a Satanist, you know, kind of close your eyes. And what do you think of the first thing that somebody says you know, and it's normally this, somebody's wearing all black, you know, and you know, the stereotype, the total stereotype, you know, like tattoos and chains and, you know, black dyed hair and all that, which, hey, cool, love all that. But you could also be looking at the person that looks just like a pastor at a church.

[Lilin Lavin]
And that could be a Satanist too, or a successful business individual, or, you know, just your average everyday, you know, community member from every type of community you can think of.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, Satanists don't have this, this look, you know, I mean, yeah, we tend to, you know, gravitate a bit to sometimes like the darker side of things, but- It really, I think it depends case by case, right? Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
So if you're out and about just doing the regular stuff, a lot of folks wouldn't even know, glance in that, you know, it's necessarily someone that's involved with Satanism. And then sometimes, you know, myself, many other community members go out wearing, maybe you're part of TST, you wear TST specific stuff, you're associated with a specific congregation, you wear congregation stuff. Maybe you're going to an event and you stop in different places like the gas station or places on the way to that, and you're all decked out in all kinds of regalia.

I know I have some fun outfits I really like to wear to specific events. And you'd obviously know, you know, you're dealing with someone that's into some kind of a cult something, is what most people tell me it looks like. But, you know, not necessarily true because we're not technically a cult in that way.

But yeah, so folks have a lot of different expectations. And I think some folks would actually be disappointed.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I know. I mean, I kind of think about it in, you know, like us, we're walking around a store, we've got two of our kids with us, you know, now, a lot of times I'm wearing like a Hail Satan shirt, you know, so it kind of gives it away. But let's say I didn't wear a Hail Satan shirt that day.

And I just wore a, you know, that's Mr. Asshole T-shirt or, you know, one of those, you know, and you do like your loud shirts. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like loud, funny, comical shirts.

And, you know, quite often people will say, I love your shirt. It's cool. Thanks, you know, because they're there to make a message.

[Lilin Lavin]
And we've had a lot, I would like to say, I think we've had a lot more positive interactions when we are wearing like satanic specific stuff. And I don't want to just say TST, because there are so many types of satanists I interact with, of every kind of variety. So obviously, what you feel is your aesthetic is going to be different than maybe what I feel kind of like satanism is really dependent on your satanism may be different from my satanism.

And that's okay. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, satanism is an individualistic religion, you know, so you're able to have, you know, your own beliefs, feelings, things like that. I mean, as long as they, you know, are along the same lines, I mean, it would be hard to be like, yeah, I'm a Christian satanist, you know, but there's weirder combinations that exist.

Yeah, I'm sure it's probably out there. You know, so I know people have this mental image of, you know, what a satanist is. And, you know, people will also ask, when did you know you were satanist?

You know, what was that?

[Lilin Lavin]
That's a tricky question. Conversion like for you, right? Well, I mean, and that's very valid, because we have lots of community members who in the process of, you know, going through life, they realized they weren't a Methodist or a Lutheran or a Catholic or, you know, many different types of religions that they may have come up through.

And they have a lot of a lot of different things that they have to work through. And, and that's a process. It's a big process.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And sometimes some of them are, are, you know, I know, when they ask that question, a lot of times they're thinking is, oh, my gosh, you know, to have to, like, dye my hair black to become a, say, you know, do I have to go get a whole new wardrobe? You know, it's like that.

And the answer is no, you know, you are you, but you can, you can, if you want, if that, that's a beauty of satanism is it gives you the permission to be you, whatever that you is that you want to be, as long as you're not harming people or things, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
The basic things you have to still stick to.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But it gives you the permission to be you genuinely you now, because of the way the real world works. You know, a lot of people are not quote unquote out satanist that things like work or, or, you know, even family a lot of times, you know, I mean, it was funny, my family, again, I've been a satanist for almost 30 years, you know, and I've it's not like when I when I'm go out around family, it's not like I, you know, put on the Sunday best or any shit like that, you know, I'm, I'm wearing Hail Satan shirts, I'm wearing pentagrams, you know, I've got pentagram tattoos, or Baphomet tech tattoos, you know, so it's not really like, a guarded secret, you know, I remember even when I guess, you know, we confirmed it, they were like, last year, I guess. Oh, my God, you know, it's like this big shock. And I'm like, where the what the fuck planet Have y'all been living on?

It's like, well, we thought you dabbled in stuff, but we dabble didn't actually know. Okay, I'm sorry.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, and that's just, that's just, I want to make sure to clarify, there is no expectation for you to ever tell anybody that there are satanists that are fully 100% always satanist. And that's, that's fantastic. There are satanists who nobody would even know outside of the community that they involve themselves with in whatever capacity, and all of that, and everything in between is perfectly fine.

Yep.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I would say the the only time where you could possibly run into like a bit of an issue is like, if you're married, and you know, you, your wife is going to church on Sundays, and all of a sudden, you stop going to church, and you don't really give a reason. And you know, all of that, that might be a conversation may be worth having. I know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, for me, and I'm not telling people what to do in their private relationships. Yeah. However, I feel like honesty is so important.

If you're going to have a relationship, and if your partner isn't someone you can trust with something like that, you know, there may be other things. And then I'm going to say, counseling or something may be a good thing, because you're still the same person. And it's always boggled my brain, someone understands you in a different light.

And it seems to detract from the person that they've always known, it somehow changes things, even though nothing's actually changed. And it's things I mean, you've dealt with it, I've dealt with it, different people, you have this preconceived notion, and then something changes, and somehow you feel a little differently about it. And sometimes that's valid, maybe something came to light that is concerning, right?

And you should feel differently. But other times, it's this preconceived notion of what we what we think a person is in their private time. And we find out, you know, oh, so and so is not like that at all.

And I feel a little weird about it. And then I suggest and I'm not, again, telling you how to live your life. But that's a good time for you to digest why you feel that way.

And what is it about those reactions you're having? Why is that happening for you? Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, yeah, I mean, as a Satanist, there's no look that you have to, you know, adopt or anything like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
And, you know, like, are there stereotypes that Satanists kind of slide into a lot of times? I think so. Definitely.

There's stereotypes. Do I like metal? Yes, yes, I do.

Yeah. Do I like all metal? No.

No. But I also like a variety of other things from classical opera to folk music to all sorts of different types of music. So I have a variety of things I enjoy.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, you know, I go anywhere from metal to complicated by Avril Lavigne, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Is that really like a giant genre leap is like pop or some shit?

[Tommy Lavin]
I don't know. No.

[Lilin Lavin]
Every now and then we'll even catch him listening to Miley Cyrus.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes. A little bit of, you know, what is it? Something in the USA or whatnot.

Yeah. You know, and kids think it's funny, too, because it's like, you know, here's, you know, dad, like, dancing around the Miley Cyrus. Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
But that's just it. You're not bound to be one particular type of person to live in one particular type of role. And that's the fun part of life, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. But like what I was saying before, obviously, for obvious reasons, some a lot of people do not disclose that they're Satanist at work, you know, and it depends on your job position, too. You know, if you're a very public person, then unfortunately, just the way the world works is the natural discrimination is just going to come up.

And, you know, people could sometimes lose their jobs or whatever, you know, but sometimes it comes out anyways, and then your boss really doesn't give a fuck. But sometimes they do. And, you know, that's understandable.

Again, you never have to disclose that you're a Satanist to anyone other than yourself, you know, in that sense.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I know, with many of the changes we've all experienced socially, that things aren't as friendly as they maybe once would have been. So, you know, we know people that are involved, that are teachers, doctors, scientists in many different, you know, types of science fields, and we have psychiatrists, counselors, there are a lot of very, very different people, executives, people that work in, you know, public-facing roles and different things. So, I mean, you can't just look at and say, well, these Satanists, these are a bunch of degenerates.

They're probably still at home. They have a bunch of opinions. They probably don't have a job.

I mean, that is not...

[Tommy Lavin]
Live in their mom's basement at 35 years old and, you know, or whatnot.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Our goal with this, one of the goals we have with this podcast with the name is, yeah, we live next door to you. We probably live next door to you in many different capacities.

There's community members that live in apartments and in houses in different communities. We live in a very suburban community in a very conservative area of the outside of Houston. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, we are in, you know, somewhat Magaville in a sense. A little.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'll say it is a bit more flexible than some of the other communities. And we know people that live in incredibly red, incredibly rural areas that are at a much greater risk because of the community for a variety of reasons. We have people from all walks of life.

We have all different age ranges. So you have people that are from the LGBTQ community. You have people that are from, you know, just about anything you could think of.

There's people that represented there.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I would say like what's not represented is like, you know, the white supremacists, Nazis, things like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. We probably would never have that kind of involvement because it's sort of not, yeah, it's antithetical. The whole process of that would be, yeah, that's a no.

So those are good things. So we have areas that are not compatible by nature, things that are contrary to whether or not a person has the right to exist. If you're anti-Semitic, if you're anti-LGBTQ, if you don't believe people have the right to bodily autonomy, if you have extreme prejudices, you know, cutting holes in your sheets would not work out very well for us, period.

We have no space for it because there's nothing positive to gain. Those communities do not overlap, nor should they.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, yeah. Like you said, I mean, those things just don't fit.

I don't care how you try and crowbar them in.

[Lilin Lavin]
It's just, you know. We are a very diverse community. So if diversity is something that you feel intimidated by and don't agree with, you're probably not going to last.

And when you start expressing some of those incredibly prejudiced views, people are going to probably call you out. And it's one of the things I love about our community. You know, we have representation in the trans community.

We have people that are adamantly allies for a lot of these different groups and will not put up with a bull. This is not the place for it.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no, not at all. You know, I speak up as an ally for many different groups in the way that I can. Because again, you know, I'm not a woman, so I can only speak up so much to a point.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. As an ally. As an ally.

Right. And that's one of the things, you know, when you have the ability to exert certain privilege that you innately have for whatever reason, then you have the obligation in a way. And I'm not saying you have to do it, but you have a way to speak up for other people who can't.

And you have a way to help them in ways that other people can't. I mean, Texas, for example, we have a huge issue with immigration where people are being villainized and treated like the worst possible case scenario. People are killed, sterilized.

There are horrible things happening to that community. And if we don't speak up, then that's on us.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So yeah, I mean, so think Satanist and then kind of wipe everything from your mind and then realize that the person next door, Bob next door, who you've never really actually met, but you see Bob drive a minivan, has a wife, has kids, all of that sort of stuff. Bob could be a Satanist and, you know, you just wouldn't know.

And nor does it matter, you know, unless Bob's an asshole to you and, you know, starts.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and maybe you might have done some things to deserve being treated like an asshole. I don't know. You know, but the beauty is I've known a lot of people from this community.

And for the most part, they're great folks. It's not until you do something, you know, we're not a turn the other cheek kind of people for the most part. I'm sure there are.

But, you know, we treat you as you treat us. It's not treat people how you want to be treated, although many of us still do that. But if you treat us, we meet you, you start the interaction and you're already kind of being a dick.

Expect that to be what you get back.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. It's not, it's not turn the other cheek and it's not radical forgiveness. You know, I mean, that's the other thing with Satanism is, you know, the radical forgiveness that you see in Christianity where, you know, just whatever is forgiven, because through the blood of Jesus Christ, no statements, we're going to be like, look, you know, you got to show us something.

You got to show us shit. You got to actually put in effort. And I have to see that you are doing something in order before I even consider forgiving you.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I have no obligation to forgive you and personal accountability. You know, I'm not going to just talk about other people, how they should do this, that or the other. We have a personal accountability for what we do, how we act and the things that we might, you know, do to create issues.

We have to own all of that. And sometimes people are going to be pissed and it's their problem. Sometimes people are going to be pissed and it's because you actually did something wrong.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. As a Satanist. And that was one thing that really drove a lot of good things for me.

As I became a Satanist a long time ago was the personal accountability, you know, it's on me, there is no magic sky person. There's no book that's going to absolve me of the shitty thing that I did to so-and-so that's on me. So whether it's good or bad, you know, if something good happens in my life, it wasn't God that stepped in and intervene.

It was fucking me. I fucking did it, you know, and hell yeah. And praise me for that shit.

You know, I'm not going to hand that over to some invisible person. I'm going to take credit for it, but I'm also going to take credit if I fuck up and do something wrong.

[Lilin Lavin]
Is that credit or accountability? Accountability credit, which is, you know, maybe it turned out to be a good mistake. But I think it's important, you know, none of us have to champion a specific cause.

If some of us feel so compelled, like, I like to speak for marginalized communities because it matters to me. I like to speak for victims because I have been one, and being able to champion that voice, it matters to me. I like to speak up for reproductive rights because they affect myself and people I love.

And I like to speak for different communities because, again, it's something I feel impassioned to do in my way of expressing my beliefs. But it's not going to be the same for everyone. People have different strengths.

People have different things they're working towards. And none of that is invalid unless it's taking away from others, unless it's harming others. Then it really doesn't fit in.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so just because, let's just say a congregation is deciding as a congregation that they're going to do some sort of event, just because you're a member of that congregation as a Satanist doesn't mean that you have to take on that event.

There's nobody forcing you to do that. And I think that's a common misconception with TST is that we force our members. No, the activism is a part of our religion, but it's not a, you don't have to, if it's not your thing, then it's not your thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I think another important thing is activism isn't even something that the congregations necessarily do as a congregation effort. A lot of times, let's just say, you know, in Texas, one of the things you might have seen Black Lives Matter do different events, right? Well, obviously, because that community already has enough crap being thrown on it, we would obviously not show up as a Satanist because that is detracting and it's negative.

And they might not even want that attention in their events. So if you choose to align yourself with an event, you should do that as an individual. And you could do it as a group of people that happen to also be TST members, but that's not your goal.

You're not there to promote anything related to TST. You're there as a person that feels compelled by the activism and the work that's happening for that and giving and lending your voice to it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, so be smart, you know, be responsible, be smart, be responsible, again, own your own shit, you know, and that is a major part of being a Satanist. And again, you know, like I said, we get questions all the time.

What was your conversion like? And I would say that's sort of different for everybody, you know. Jared If you converted at all.

Pete Yeah, if you converted. Some people are converting from, you know, a very religious, strict religious background. I mean, we've had Mormons that, you know, there was a lot of deconstruction that they had to personally go through.

And that's a journey they have to take kind of on their own. We, you know, we could support in a way, but there's only so much that we can do. That deconstruction has to happen at a personal level and at their own speed.

For somebody like me that was raised pretty much atheist, there wasn't really a conversion for me. It was like, you know, one day I picked up the Satanic Bible and I was like, huh, a lot of this shit I relate with. There's some shit I don't like and that I don't relate with, but a lot of this, you know, so sometimes when you talk to Satanists, you'll hear Satanists say, you know, I had always been a Satanist.

I just didn't realize I was a Satanist until I started researching it. It just was a fit.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jared Yeah. And another thing you'll hear a lot is, well, you only do that because you're mad at God. No, I promise you I'm not.

Because in my mind, for me, God's not real. It's a construct. And there you can't be mad at something imaginary.

That's not healthy. That's not normal to just sit there and be angry at something that doesn't truly exist. Now, if you believe God exists, that's something you'll have to process on your own way in your own time.

But for me, that was never something that I believed. So I didn't have any anger towards it, because it's the people that are acting certain ways under the guise of religion that I've only ever had an issue with. And not everybody.

I have friends that are very religious, that are fantastic people. And it's totally fine. Pete But they don't act like assholes.

That's sort of the difference. Jared Just like with Satanism, right? You probably meet some Satanists that are jerks, right?

Christians aren't all awful people. Unfortunately, there's just a whole lot of people right now that are using that label and acting in completely horrible ways. So it's hard to separate that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Yeah, it definitely is. But like you said, shit, where was I going with that? Christians, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Jared Okay, well, I'll move it along. The other thing that I often get asked, or told, sometimes told, is that you're not living by your tenants, or how do you live by your tenants? You know, you get into a disagreement with somebody, you're talking philosophically, and people will say, well, how do you make this fit into that when it says, you have to be compassionate and empathetic to everybody, and I'm somebody?

And I'm like, yeah, sure. No, that's true. That's true.

Uncompassionate empathy does matter to me based on those tenants, which are very open-ended. They're not commandments. But you have to add the other part within reason.

And reason means I can dictate whether or not you're a person that I feel like expending compassion and empathy towards. I'm not going to just outright do harmful things. But at the end of the day, I will choose to not even interact with you.

And I don't have to.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a really important thing as Satanists. I remember I went up to the gas station once near me, and I was wearing one of my Hail Satan shirts or something like that.

And the gas station attendant was like, can I ask you a question? I was like, sure. He's like, somebody told me that Satanists don't believe in love.

I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've got a family. I love my wife.

I love my children. Satanists believe that we don't believe in just giving love out freely. We choose who we love.

This idea that you love everybody out there is just asinine. Why would I love somebody that I've never met or somebody that's harmed me or done something harmful to people that I care about? You know, so we give our empathy and compassion to people that we believe deserve it.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, Jared You know, it's funny about that. It just popped in my head when you were talking about that. And when I did go to Bible studies, one of the fun conversations that I had with some folks was about the word love.

And it was interesting to me because biblically, the Latin root words for love came in multiple different types, you know, where you have family love and partner love and parent to child. There are so many different kinds of love. I think obviously, as we've changed over time, it's come together as this blurred notion of universal love.

Pete Yeah, it's muddled together. Jared Right. But if you think about it, I mean, I have empathy and love towards the majority of people, right?

I'm not out there actively looking to be angry or hateful or upset. I don't live in that place. I'm not angry in general.

Though, when I meet people that are angry or aggressive or ugly, I will try actively to avoid you. And, you know, part of me will say, gosh, you know, I wonder what's wrong in their life. I wish, you know, them well, I hope they they move past whatever is making them so upset.

So it's not that I wish ill will on people. When I you know, when you talk about the idea of love, it's not we don't care about the greater community. It's that we are going to be very selective in the way we expend our efforts in that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Yeah. And again, that's different for for everybody. And like, we've probably joked about this before on here.

If not, I know we we joke about it in person all the time is, you know, I think we work really well together because yeah, you have a lot of empathy and a lot of for a lot of people, you know, people you don't even know. I have very little. So we like balance each other out because, you know, you can be like, hey, you're being a bit of an asshole.

And then I can be like, hey, you're kind of getting taken advantage of, you know, and you know, so I think we balance out really well in that way because we are on two opposite sides of the spectrum, but that's still okay, right? Because as Satanists, we get to make that choice, right? You know, how compassionate are we?

Who are we compassionate to? Do we have empathy for, you know, somebody that we we've never met, don't know or anything like that? Or do we save that empathy for somebody that is more involved in our life, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and that's up to each single person, right to decide, and you get to decide what love means to you and where you expend that energy or what you feel means you're compassionate or empathetic. These are, they're so specific to different aspects of someone's life. And so you get into this philosophical conversation, but these are subjective constructs that are very nuanced to how you were brought up, the community, the culture.

So it changes person to person. That's healthy because we grow, the more we talk, the more we understand different levels of whatever. So that's another thing I love about the Satanic community.

People share thoughts and ideas about their perspectives openly, and usually in the healthy environments, because again, there's negative and positive people in every single community. But when you share these constructive thoughts and feedback with one another, it helps you to grow as a person because you say, well, this makes sense. And you kind of adopt some of those things into what you do and how you practice going about your life and the efforts and energy that you expend daily.

You have different focuses as you grow in age, you're hopefully continuing to evolve all the way up until the day that you cease to exist.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, your hope as a Satanist, like you said, is that you're always evolving. You're always learning.

That's just the way that in the ideal world that you work as a Satanist, mistakes happen. I look at mistakes as learning opportunities. And when I manage teams of people, I've always told my team members, if you make a mistake, that's okay.

Use it as a learning opportunity. I'm only going to get pissed if, and we're only going to have an issue with me managing you, is if you make the same mistake over and over again, and you're not learning from it. But if you make a genuine mistake and you learn from that mistake, then the mistake was a good thing because it gave you the opportunity to learn.

And I think that's a good way to look at things for me anyways.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, I agree. I think those are good things. And the other beauty of a mistake is, how do you personally look at people who make mistakes?

How do you address them? How do you move through that? Do you believe that mistakes can be healthy?

And do you extend that same courtesy that you want to give to yourself or you want people to give to you to other people? So, it's helpful because it lets people that make mistakes grow and it helps the people who are involved with the individuals making the mistakes. With kids, we make lots of mistakes.

We make lots of mistakes. As parents, we make lots of mistakes with our kids. And so, the beauty of that is I get to grow with them through those encounters, through those experiences, through their mistakes, through the mistakes I make with them.

Helping to teach them to call me out on my mistakes helps them to recognize the value of mistakes and the importance of accountability.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And at some point, we'll do a podcast more on parenting. But our parenting style is likely different than a lot of other people's parenting style.

But we've always been open with our children in the sense that they feel safe to speak to us about just about anything. That doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be consequences, but they know that they can come to us for anything. And we're also going to talk to them like adults.

Mm-hmm.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or age appropriately.

[Tommy Lavin]
Age appropriately, yes. But we're not going to lie to them or anything like that about something the way that a lot of religious parents or people of other ideologies do to their children.

[Lilin Lavin]
And- Oh, yeah. And it's not limited to that. And that's another thing.

People always say, can you have families? Do you have relationships? Yep.

Do you have community? Yes. How do you have morality?

And how do you have these things without understanding where it comes from? The Bible is the ultimate source of morality. Nope.

There was an entire expanse of time prior to that being injected into society that people were still able to function through social contracts, through different philosophical understandings, through the basic understanding of this person looks sad or this person looks angry. What did I do? What did they do?

And what is a positive way for people to exist? So you can recognize when you cause harm. You can recognize when you do good.

The average person can see that in another person.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, good and bad, yes, they're subjective. There's certain things that aren't subjective.

Murder, rape, things like that. Just about any culture, no matter the religion, those are bad. And you don't need a book or a pretend Skype person to tell you that those are wrong.

And I kind of always go back and challenge people on that, that if you need this book or you need the threat of damnation in order to know, like raping and killing people is wrong, then you really have bigger problems. The problem isn't with us where we can self-recognize that things are wrong. I'd hate to think what some of those people would do if they feel there was any sort of permission in there to do the things that they want to do.

And if they look hard enough, they can find that permission. And that's scary because they do sometimes.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. But it's just it's really interesting to me because we've begun to realize that a lot of different life experiences these same concepts. And so one of my kids, I was talking with my youngest, our youngest, we were talking together and they were like, did you know that monkeys have the same sort of ideas about loss and different experiences that we do?

And I was like, well, okay. I mean, I did, I was aware of that to a degree primates have a lot of the same sort of stuff emotionally that we do. They experience a lot of the same sort of things.

And I said, yeah, but it was really cool. There was this experiment where they had this very realistic looking monkey recording device. It was a camera essentially, but it looked like whichever species, and I don't know which species of monkey it was, but they had put it in a natural environment to observe them just doing things on their day-to-day life as part of the observational portion of this just fact finding.

And one of the monkeys accidentally did something and knocked this recording device over and then they went to check on it. It wasn't moving. They thought, oh my gosh, I've killed it.

So the entire troop, you know, collects around, they're clinging to their children, they're gathered around it together. They look obviously disturbed at the occurrence that's now happened with this poor, silent, quiet little monkey that usually sits off in the corner that, you know, monkey Joe just knocked over carelessly and they fell a great distance and now they've passed away. And so they really felt very, you could tell by their reactions, they were very disturbed by this entire experience.

And we're having this conversation like that's really just freaking amazing and intense to think about this is the same thing we're talking about. Compassion, empathy, recognizing, community, connection. These same things are not limited to us as a species.

And you see it with crows and ravens too. They experience the same sort of thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Jared Yeah. I mean, humans aren't all that special in the sense like, you know, there's a lot of people that believe that humans are the only thing that have emotions or...

[Lilin Lavin]
Pete The apex of, you know, evolution.

[Tommy Lavin]
Jared You know, and yes, obviously, we've built up the world and all of that sort of stuff, but we've destroyed it at the same time. I won't even go down that sort of...

[Lilin Lavin]
Teresa Different subject. But yeah, as far as being a Satanist, and what that encompasses and what it's like to live the life of a Satanist, it's different for every single one of us. I don't think there's a two of us that are exactly the same, just like every other community.

[Tommy Lavin]
Pete Yeah, you know, and again, you know, you have, there's a stereotype of what a Satanist is in people's minds. But, you know, if you like, got to know a different group of Satanists, you know, like, if you met 20 different Satanists, would probably blow you away with the differences between them, both in the way that they look, the way that they believe, their jobs, the way that they act, the way that they see the world, you know, I mean, it's just take that stereotype, you know, crumple it up and throw it in the trash, because that's all it is, is a stereotype.

[Lilin Lavin]
Teresa Then there are shared things that we do mostly hold together. One of the things I love, we'll have a book club that we meet regularly, and we discuss the book and the topics and the themes, and we balance different understandings off of one another. And the wonderful part is that everyone brings really different perspectives, everyone has something they're open and willing to share.

There's so much openness in the community to hearing one another, and acceptance is so huge. It's not to say that there's not things that will cause, you know, upset or difference of opinion. I mean, definitely that happens.

But then oftentimes the maturity of, you know, I felt this way about this thing, and here, this was my reaction, and I wanted to talk to you. And then that open dialogue that often happens. It's really nice, for the most part, not perfect, not utopian, like we still have all the same issues everyone else does.

But it's really nice, because I've often seen where we're just better at just being open people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. And I think that's again, because Satanism gives us the permission to be who we are, and to express who we are. And we don't have to hide behind some facade, you know, we don't have to hide behind this perfect sort of existence or anything like that, you know.

And are there asshole Satanists? There certainly are. I've met Satanists that I don't want to ever see or interact with again.

You know, there's people, but I'm not going to tell them they're not Satanists. If they're Satanists, they're Satanists. It doesn't mean that I want to have any interaction with them, you know, they could still just buck off for all I care, you know.

But, you know, then there's people that I really like. And, you know, the community is just diverse like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Chase Clymer It is insanely diverse. Again, you could think about just about any type of person. And there's probably someone in our community that's represented there.

And that's a great thing, because we live in a very diverse society. So it's wonderful to be able to have that. And another thing people don't realize, we have representation all over the world.

Darrell Bock I was just about to bring that up is, you know, not only that, but then we have cultural differences. Chase Clymer Yeah, even within one another. So we will sometimes be talking about different understandings.

There's sometimes different committees that chitchat with one another or different congregations that share different tactics and things that they've learned. And you'll start talking about something like, what are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense.

Like, why would you do that? And then you realize, well, culturally, it's not necessary in that region where they live, or this thing is just completely off the rails. Like, I didn't realize the way that the, let's just say media, news and reporters treat people there is very different.

The gotcha questions and the toxic inappropriate behavior is not a thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock In parts of Europe.

[Lilin Lavin]
Chase Clymer In parts of Europe. It's just that's a huge no. You cannot treat people like Tucker Carlson treated people.

Like, you can't do that. It's just culturally, that's taboo. I have a very close friend who's from a Dutch country and, you know, pajamas in public in the grocery store.

Like, what are you talking about? That's bizarre. Why would you do that?

But here, you know, that's a thing that we do. I'm tired. It's been a long week.

I'm going to the store. But yeah, there's just differences that we can share that are just crazy amazing. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it's, it's cool to, you know, learn those. And, and, you know, sometimes what seems like might become an argument because of cultural differences, once people talk, all of a sudden they realize, okay, well, we're saying the same thing. It's just culturally different.

So you don't, you don't understand where I'm coming from because of the cultural differences. And here's the reason why. And most of the time, not every, most of the time, most Satanists are going to at least hear out and be like, oh, okay, that sort of makes sense because we strive to continue to learn and evolve.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I think that's a beautiful thing that I often see. And if you've ever been to any of our services, you'll hear people talking about different things. And one of the things that one of the leaders of ministry constantly talks about is, are you asking clarifying questions?

And that's a really good exercise for people, you know, hold on. I heard you say this. I heard it and it made me feel this way.

I understood it like this. Is that what you were trying to say? And I do try to utilize that in my day-to-day life because I will, you know, in work, for example, which is outside of my Satanism, right?

That's just me doing other things in my life. I bring my Satanism with me because again, it's a religious deeply held belief. So, I try to apply it all over.

So, when I'm at work and I'm working with maybe a developer or maybe a client and they tell me all these amazing things that this thing is going to do. And I'm like, wait, I have no idea what you're talking about. Let's step back a minute.

Could you break this down for me a little bit at a time and then kind of explain to me what that means? And that is one of the ways that stuff that I apply religiously has been working for me in parenting, at work, in my relationship. So, those are things that I really enjoy that I've grown through my religious beliefs in Satanism in the world.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah. I would say, you know, Satanism really, really helped me grow mature, you know, really helped me mature as, you know, because again, I got into Satanism as a late teenager, you know. So, I still had a lot of maturing to do and, you know, I was a dumb fuck back then with a lot of stuff, you know.

And I did a lot of stupid shit, you know. But because I was always striving to learn because that's sort of, you know, in a way a tenant, you know. And the difference with the tenants is, because this comes up too, you know, tenants are not commandments.

You know, people look at the tenants and then they're like, oh, you have, no, a tenant isn't a commandment. It is more of a, you know, a suggestion. Would suggestion be right?

Or what would you say?

[Lilin Lavin]
Chris It's probably a little stronger than a suggestion. I mean, the tenants are sort of words to apply to your everyday life. And they're pieces of an idea that when combined help to give you a basic structural foundation for how you live.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
Chris And it's really great because they're not limited. They're very open to interpretation. A lot of people would see that as a negative.

I see that as a huge positive because each interpretation brings a new depth of understanding to that simple portion. Like one of the tenants is to, you know, always use the best scientific understanding, but not to distort the science to fit your own personal understanding, you know, what you're trying to get out there. And I like that because if you look at our society today, whether it's social media, or on, you know, the news, or just different aspects of disseminating information, people will take a study or a poll, and they'll say, well, this definitively proves this thing is right.

It's always been right, and you're wrong. Okay, science, it doesn't really work that way. And I can find anything to just justify a point that I want to make.

When you do that, you're really destroying the whole value of the science. So it's important to say, you know, based on current understanding, these are the things I understand to listen to other people's interpretation than to say, okay, this makes sense here. That doesn't mean it's the only answer.

Darrell Bock And the tenants are made to evolve.

[Tommy Lavin]
I guess that would be the big difference between like tenants and commandments. Commandments are like, they're forever, you know, they're etched in stone and all of that sort of shit. But tenants are made to evolve, you know, and they have things like within reason inside of them.

And like you said, you know, to your best scientific understanding, and science is always changing, you know, or, you know, you can offend people, but you also have to accept responsibility for that offense. Yeah, if you offend people, it's likely they're gonna offend you back.

[Lilin Lavin]
And you know, guess what you offended people, and maybe today, there's seven, and maybe in 10 years, there's, you know, 14. I don't know. But the thing is, we're always open to evolving with what we learn.

And that's what makes it it's a living religion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it's it's it is there in order to evolve. And, and so that's, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, like I said, I just, I thought it would be fun to do this sort of just kind of throw shit at the wall episode, because there are so many stereotypes of what a satanist is, you know, what does a satanist look like?

What does a satanist listen to, you know, and it's always the same sort of, you know, heavy metal blasting in the background, and, you know, black spikes, mascara, I don't know, you know, but sometimes that's true.

[Lilin Lavin]
Sometimes it's true.

[Tommy Lavin]
Sometimes that is absolutely true.

[Lilin Lavin]
And sometimes they're the most colorful people in the room. And sometimes they're the most ordinary people in the room. And it's just that diversity that makes it wonderful.

And, you know, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I wanted to get across. And if you don't necessarily, if you're not a TST satanist, and you have different things that you base standards and foundational living understanding on, that's fine, too. It's just important that you have some kind of root of foundation that you're building upon.

And that's, I think, one of the important things about satanism, we're always trying to grow and learn and do the best we can.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it that's, that's sort of the core, you know, it's been the core of my life for for close to 30 years. And it has helped me personally, professionally, all of that, you know, it's just, you know, that that ability to, to adjust and to look at my surroundings and be mindful.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, yeah, yeah. And we said we wouldn't really cover heavy things. But the other thing that's something I often get brought up, you know, what about the end of life?

What about all that stuff? That's another one that people really can't put their head around. And I'm not going to speak for anybody other than myself here.

But for me, it actually drives me to make the most of every single day and to let people I love or people that matter know that every single day that I'm interacting with them. In every moment, I try to make the best of that because I fully believe personally, that this is what I have this today and tomorrow and until the end of my days, those are it. And all I will have at the end of that is what I've experienced.

And I hopefully have left good things for other people to look back on and carry with them of my experience.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, in a sense, you live on through people's memories, and their experiences with you, or the things that I've taught them or the, you know, the hope is that something of me continues forward and people use that to build other good things.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, and so that is, again, we don't have anybody else to blame. No, we don't have anybody else to give credit to. And we don't have this preconceived notion that we're more important, you know, like that we're going to continue to live on.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or that we're a selected group of people that some deific figure favors. I mean, the important thing is, do we think about the same gravity of the end of our existence like everyone else? Yeah, absolutely.

That is something that we constantly have out there, just like everyone else. And is it sad for us when people have gone on and are no longer actively part of our life? Absolutely.

We feel that pain and sadness and loss, just like everyone else, we just deal with it differently. Definitely. Well, I think that's probably a good one to end on.

Let's go with the saddest one.

[Tommy Lavin]
Let's go with the heaviest. We're gonna go with the heavy at the end.

[Lilin Lavin]
I hope that it wasn't really sad. Because the point is, every day is your opportunity to impact your life and the life of people around you, the environment around you. And as a satanist, you can carry that with you in everything that you do.

Even if you don't acknowledge that it is satanism in places where you can't.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And selfish doesn't mean bad. Yeah.

Selfish doesn't mean bad. I can be selfish that I might me personally, I want a world that isn't filled with garbage. And you know that we're not destroying the world.

Now that can help things, but it's my selfish desire. But that doesn't that doesn't make it bad, because it's selfish. So there there's, we should probably do an episode on selfishness, selfishness, and how selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think the place we often sell ourselves short is we'll often want to do for others and do for change and do for activism or whatever it is that drives us right. But then we forget what about ourselves? If we have no energy for these other things, then you know, what good are we doing?

We have to remember ourselves in our list of things that matter, and in things that we make time for.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, you know, so our own birthdays are sort of like the biggest holiday of the year, because that's when we came in to creation. So for a satanist, that's the most important day.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, you know, our family's weird like that. We've decided that a month for each person is great. And we've been lucky that all of our kids have their own month.

And we have our own months. So we just go with that. And the main week, obviously, is the biggest celebration.

And then the weekend that's closest to the day. Yeah, we tend to do the most together when we can, because you know, a few of our kids are adults, and they have their own lives. But we do still try to make that the pivotal focal point is that we're celebrating you and what you brought into our lives and what you bring just in general.

And that's a wonderful thing.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, absolutely. So all right. Well, on that note, because that is not as heavy.

Yes, that's it. That's a happy note. I think we can we can end there.

And yeah, I hope y'all have a wonderful day, night, morning, wherever you're at in the world and hail Satan.