Ep.13: F*CK MAPS & Sympathizers - Sensitive Content

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.13: F*CK MAPS & Sympathizers - Sensitive Content

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Before we start this episode, I want to put a sensitive content warning on this one. If you are somebody that is bothered by the subject matter of sexual violence or the prevalence of what we've seen as a rise in pedophilia, this might not be the best episode for you.

We're going to be covering the subjects and our feelings on them. And so if this is an episode that could bother you, then I would say probably shut the podcast off now and we can always catch you on the next one. But we have some very strong feelings against what we're seeing out there, and we wanted to make those known.

[Lilin Lavin]
All right. So this really comes about because recently we were involved in a discussion panel where tons of different topics came up. All the rest of them are pretty good, but one individual decided to kind of go into the topic of pedophilia and how it is a misunderstood thing in society that people aren't accepting of the fact that those who struggle with pedophilia exist and they should be understood.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Plus a couple other things.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And then we saw some things on social media that were also around the same stuff, and it's not new. I mean, this conversation maybe made it a little more just relevant and just made it more obvious that this is a bigger situation.

It's not that it hasn't been a bigger problem. It's been a big problem. But we started looking and seeing, you know, there's the reports of all the assaults that are happening in religious institutions and educational institutions and within law enforcement.

And there's just been so much going on. And I think it gets lost that people are aware pedophilia is a problem. People are aware pedophiles exist.

But where we started to have an issue is when people start saying, well, think about the pedophile. Okay. I can't help but not know that they exist.

However, my care stops at the point that I feel for them. I'm sorry that they've been afflicted with this issue, but they are dangerous and they need help. And I do not want to invite them into any community, no matter what it is, religious, political.

There should definitely be boundaries because of safety situations. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
I mean, we've seen this sort of drumbeat from the Christian nationalists and evangelical side, which has, you know, they're always trying to push the narrative of the LGBTQIA community are pedophiles. Drag queens are pedophiles. Satanists are pedophiles.

I mean, Satanism has been fighting against being called a pedophile since like for 60 years. I mean, it was part of the satanic panic where there was all these false claims and shit like that. And, and so I am, you know, we have always been very vocal about this subject as well.

And so for, for me, whether it's online, whether it's on any sort of a discussion panel, whether it's a one-on-one conversation, I do not give a shit. There is no room, absolutely zero room for pedophiles or maps or NAMBLA in any sort of community. It's just not there.

And a little history, you know, this in the, in the eighties, late seventies, early eighties, actually, I would say all the way through the eighties, you know, they, they tried to attach, this isn't the first attempt to try and attach to the LGBTQIA community. There was an attempt by NAMBLA to try and attach with, with gay men and they were rejected. Rightfully so and forcefully so.

It didn't work. They rebranded as maps, minor attracted persons or something like that. You know, and again, rejected the LGBT community is very, very, very clear.

They are not a part of that community. As Satanists, we're very clear. They're not a part of our community, everything from the satanic Bible to where, where it says it straight in the 11 rules, do not harm children, to the Temple of Set, to TST with bodily autonomy and needing consent and all of that sort of stuff.

[Lilin Lavin]
There is no- You look at the seven tenets and a lot of them cover personal sovereignty, bodily autonomy and, and consent within them. So there is no room in the majority of things. I don't care if you're in any left hand path organization.

And I don't understand how any other religious beliefs make room for it, but that's not up to me. But most of these organizations that I'm aware of, most religious beliefs, they have a hard line and they should. And if they don't, well, that's another problem.

But yeah, like I said, it was a conversation that came up and then I saw all the other conversations that kind of went around it and the normalization of understanding that these are still people and they should get care and respect. And no, they should get care. They should get mental health care, which sucks because here in the United States, mental health care is not taken seriously.

There's not a lot of good care. There's a lot of concern around inappropriate practices for care. So I get that there are challenges.

That aside, the only place that these people need to be accepted is in care of professionals who are aware of the affliction that they suffer with and can help to protect the greater community at large, specifically children who are incredibly vulnerable, especially to adults because they're always told, listen to adults no matter what. And that brings up a lot of issues, you know, because child sexual abuse is the most under reported thing next to just violence of sexual violence. And that encompasses so many things.

Like men don't report violence because they're stigmatized. Women don't report violence because they're stigmatized. But children are essentially taught that they do not have a voice.

Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
And they're taught that adults are right. And then they're threatened, you know, if you do tell then this is going to happen or that's going to happen. And so, yeah, a lot of these do not get reported.

So, you know, there's people that will argue to the distinction between, you know, somebody who has acted out and somebody who hasn't. And to me, both people are a threat. Because you have not acted out yet does not make you not a threat to me because you have these intrusive thoughts that you are focusing on.

And, you know, again, I'm sorry for that, but it does not belong in any community and no community needs to be pointed at and said, you know, oh, this is what this community is about, because that's not that's just the furthest from the truth.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I want to be clear. And we've discussed this before. Everyone struggles with intrusive thoughts, things that they fixate on and stuff like that.

And most of that is just completely normal. You know, you get mad and your boss like does something really inappropriate. And you're like, man, I just wish I could punch them in the face.

That could be, you know, a very unhealthy thing to fixate on. But everyone has that thought and it comes and it goes. And that's, you know, fine.

You know, people get mad when they're driving, like, why does this idiot always want to cut me off? And, you know, you think about the guy that took your parking lot and parking spot in the parking lot, maybe you want to like ram into the back of their car. But these are quick fleeting thoughts.

Normal people have them. It's acting on those that does begin to create problems. I feel though, however, when it comes to obsessing about sexual interaction with children, now we've entered into a very different space.

Very much so.

[Tommy Lavin]
And to me, an action doesn't have to be a physical action. To me, an action is I downloaded a picture or a video or something like that. If you downloaded a picture, if you downloaded a video, you acted because behind that picture, behind that video is a victim.

And there is no ands, ifs or buts about that. There's no explaining it away. There's no, maybe it's okay, maybe it's not.

No, it is not okay. It should be not, it should not be accepted. And it should not be normalized.

And it should be not be welcomed into any community. Period.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I don't care if you pick up a, you know, clothing catalog that has kids in it, because you want to look at them in that way. It's still wrong.

And the reason why this conversation and this situation was so difficult for me, and it took me some time to really talk it over and think it out, was because, and I've mentioned this before, and I've shared a bit about it. I personally was affected by sexual violence as a child. I was a victim of sex trafficking as a young child.

And it colored a lot of my life from that moment to today. And it affected everything from, you know, relationships to being a parent myself. Every time my kids would be out of my sight, I would be afraid that something bad could happen to them, especially around that.

You know, we, when our kids would start to go play with other kids, and they'd be out a little longer than they were supposed to, you know, I would begin to panic. And, you know, you would often say, Hey, you know, this is normal. Kids are laid, you know, it's okay.

But it would be very traumatizing for me, because all I would do is fixate on, you know, the worst possible scenario. And, um, understandably, so, yeah, yeah. The negatives are things like that, you know, the way it affects my relationship with you, the way it affects my ability to engage in normal, healthy things, especially around sexuality, the fears I have around every time my kids are out of my sight, and the extreme anxiety I feel even for adult kids, you know, sometimes I'll just find myself thinking about, Oh, my gosh, what if, you know, and are they okay? And just the panic that will sometimes come from that. And I've done a lot of work to move through that.

And I feel like I'm in a really decent place in my life. I have a very good life that I'm very happy with, you know, I didn't know, younger me didn't realize that that would ever be possible. And so that's something I want to make sure people that have suffered from this understand, is that, you know, that horrible place that you might be in today, where it feels like it will never get better.

It does pass, it doesn't ever fully go away. But you can have normal, healthy life and relationships. And you can go on to do normal things.

You know, it just takes some work. And it takes a lot of understanding and it takes a lot of, you know, self care and kindness to yourself.

[Tommy Lavin]
And I would say it also takes not surrounding yourself or having people in your community that are either, you know, I hate to use this word, but it's a word that I've seen bouncing around online, you know, that maps is coming out as there is no coming out, right? So as a pedophile, it is not a sexual orientation.

[Lilin Lavin]
Pedophilia is not an orientation. It is an illness. People do suffer from it.

It is sometimes, you know, something that's forced on you, because you were assaulted, and then you go on to fixate on these kind of thoughts. And some people are just this way for whatever reason. I don't know.

It's got so many different aspects to it that one can't pinpoint any one specific thing. There's so many different reasons why people end up dealing with this. That said, those are things that those people have to deal in safe, constructive ways.

And it's very challenging for me, because I don't feel like people who suffer from pedophilic fixations will ever be safe. I want them to be able to live lives just like I want to be able to live a life, but I need to know that they're not in a space with kids or vulnerable people who they can go on to harm. And this goes for anyone with extreme violent sexual thoughts, regardless of who they're on and what they're about.

You don't belong around the people that you're you're fixating on doing those things to. The one exception that I will very clearly make, because I don't want to make people feel self-conscious, if you're involved in a healthy BDSM community with consenting adults, that's very different, provided that you're following safe, healthy sexual practices, and you're not harming people without their consent, and it's not a mutual relationship. If you're doing things that are intentionally designed to harm people, and that's not something that you guys are very clear about, that's not okay, regardless of the reason, regardless of why it's something you deal with.

Anything around children is never, ever, ever okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that's what I was going to say. Even in that community, there is a very strict, no minor, nobody, I mean, if you're a child, if you're under 18, you cannot consent, period. End of story.

There is no answer, there is no is, there is no buts. And so that is just not okay. And it's not okay to normalize it.

It's not okay to try and, you know, look, if you personally want to make it your mission, and to try and help people that have these intrusive thoughts that have not acted on them yet, I'm gonna put that out there, you know, you're talking to people that have not acted on them yet, that is your choice. But you have to do that without putting other people and the rest of your community, whatever community it is, at risk. So that means whether you're in the LGBTQIA community, whether you're a Satanist, whether you're a pagan, whether you're a Christian, whether you're a Catholic, whether you're a Jew, no matter what community you are a part of, you cannot just welcome these individuals in and believe that it will be okay, because Jimmy hasn't acted out yet.

No, Jimmy's a threat.

[Lilin Lavin]
And pedophilia isn't just limited to men. There are female pedophiles as well. So I don't want to sit there and pretend that there isn't.

But the issue is anyone that has a fixation, and it doesn't have to be intrusive thoughts, it could be any sexual fixation on minors, anyone under the age of 18 needs to be under some sort of supervision, honest with themselves, honest with others, and to do the right thing, which is to stay away from the temptation that they are struggling with. And I'm sure that's difficult. You know, society is very intermixed, ages and stuff, but sexual abuse on children has no boundaries.

It doesn't matter your, you know, gender. It doesn't matter your ethnicity. It doesn't matter your wealth bracket.

There's no boundary on sexual abuse and assault. And that's a problem. There's such a prevalence that there's literally no safe group of people from this issue.

Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And especially if the community is either practicing radical forgiveness, which you see in the Christian community, well, so-and-so did this, but that was five years ago, and they're better now. No, they're not better. They're still a threat.

And if you welcome them into your community and you make them a youth minister or something like that, you have put your entire community and all those children at risk, because there is not a day that goes by. Even though, you know, we see Christian nationalists point to and try and make it out that drag queens and members of the LGBTQI community or Satanists or whatever are groomers, or anybody that's an ally, they try and point the groomer factor over. There's not a day that goes by that I do not see the reports of Christian youth ministers, of Christian pastors, of teachers, of police officers.

In other words, people in the position of power that are arrested and convicted of something having to do with child sexual assault.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. We're not talking about accusations. We're talking about people that were actually found to have committed acts of violence on children.

And I want to make sure that distinction is clear. Accusing someone of something is not the same as them being guilty. We have to be very careful as individuals not to make assumptions about people without any actual clear evidence.

If you feel uncomfortable, make every possible move to separate yourself from those individuals and to protect people and be honest with people about your concerns. It is okay to say, I have these feelings. I'm uncomfortable.

It's not okay without evidence to make a claim about somebody because that could ruin their life. And it's a very dangerous game to play. So, I will put that out there.

One of the reasons why that is something I feel it's important to say is not too long ago, and I was very conflicted about this, the state of Florida decided to put the death penalty as an option for people who were deemed pedophiles. And I really went back and forth with this. I read a lot of stuff about it.

And what I found very concerning, aside from the fact that I don't really have a lot of faith in our judicial system and our legislative system, aside from all of that, there was the issue where they were starting to try and lump parents who were supportive of LGBTQ kids, parents who supported trans kids, trans kids, trans adults, people in the LGBTQ community. They were trying to lump all these people together as deviants and sexual predators. So, if you think that through, you realize, well, this is really unsafe.

And they're trying to lump all sorts of people together. I was conflicted because I don't know what the right thing to do is in the situation where someone has committed violent acts towards children. They're not safe for society.

They're not safe for themselves. But again, I don't know that just ending someone's life is going to make any difference of positive either. So, if you are someone that has committed these kinds of crimes, you have to be under a safe, secure supervision.

You can't be out in society, in my opinion, the end. But the death penalty thing, you know, now we're going down a road that is very, very, very concerning.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that's a slippery slope. And again, like you said, we talked about it a bit, because there is mixed feelings there for actual sexual predators. But the difference is what Florida was trying to do is what the Christian nationalists and the evangelicals are trying to do is they try and point at other communities, and they try and say that these communities or members in these communities are sexual deviants.

It happened in satanic panic, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
And to be very clear, this is not new rhetoric. It happened back in Germany. It happened in Poland.

It happened in a lot of other countries who began to separate out what they considered undesirable people. And every group that they considered undesirable, and it's not just the Nazis who did this. This is something that's happened even prior to that.

But it happened during that period, where they would say, Oh, these people are all sexual deviants, and they're a danger to society. And then they would start pushing them out and moving them into this other category. And it became very dangerous.

And that is what we're seeing again today. So yes, I do believe that people that struggle with thoughts of pedophilia are a danger, point blank. But that is a very different thing from normal, healthy individuals who are seeking healthy relationships in communities like the LGBTQ community.

That is not a sexual deviance. That is normal. If you as an adult or as a young person with people of your same age range are having those desires to seek out relationships, that's what normal healthy people do.

Nobody stops to say, Hey, why are you straight? Why do you want to date a boy if you're a girl? These are just normal things that people do.

It begins to become a problem when you're having a giant imbalance, where you're being dangerous to other people without their permission. You're trying to force yourself on people where you're trying to control people. And especially when you're an adult pursuing a child.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes, that is never, ever, ever, ever, ever. Okay. And again, like I go back to acting out is one single picture.

Acting out is one single video. It does not have to mean that there was a physical interaction because behind that one single picture is a victim. And so sometimes people get lost in that because they have this empathy or compassion for people that are struggling.

And again, I'm sorry if people are struggling, but yes, you are a threat. If you are a pedophile, if you're part of MAPS, NAMBA, whatever it is you want to call yourself. If you're a pedo-apologist, you're a threat because you are okay to normalize that behavior.

And that behavior should never, ever be normalized. It should never be looked at as, oh, okay, you know what? We're just going to help this person or they were struggling or having a hard time.

No, there is a child victim there. And at that point, they need to be removed, whether it's into a facility or something like that, from the general population of society. And therapy doesn't mean they go once a month and talk to somebody.

These people are extremely dangerous.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm not going to discuss the cadence at which people need to seek help because if you're at different points in your personal, whatever controls that you're putting in place to protect other people, that's not up to me. But if you're actively having persistent thoughts, obsessive thoughts, if you're struggling, you should be being seen on a routine basis because at that point you're at high risk to others. And I would argue even to yourselves because I know from what I've seen, a lot of these people that do go on to harm people, then it becomes a perpetual cycle that they suffer with some of the things they do, which does very little to the people that they've harmed and essentially killed at that point in their life.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I do believe, I truly do believe that there needs to be a lot more research put into this.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yes.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, there should be scientific research to try and figure out why, how, and is there a way to identify early and treat, you know, all of that sort of stuff. There needs to be research into it. So there needs to be an acknowledgment that this is an issue, but not an acceptance or not a, what was the word I was using?

Not a, you know, not making it so that it is acceptable or that it is just a normal thing, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I'm not going to do this whole, I'm coming out as a pedophile. Don't disgrace other people who have struggled and agonized over very normal, healthy feelings to pursue normal, healthy relationships.

You're not coming out. You're a danger. You have every obligation to yourself and to the community at large to alert people to these feelings.

That's a healthy, responsible thing to do. You do not have the right to seek acceptance in a community or pretend that you are part of a community. You are part of a group of people who suffer from an unfortunate illness.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And when you normalize the situation, then it becomes dangerous because then you get a group of people, like-minded individuals together, who then feed off of each other. And, you know, you brought up a movie.

I did. Now, you got to be careful. No, I know.

But the premise of what you were saying makes sense. And that was what I was trying to get at.

[Lilin Lavin]
Just like I don't want to lump other people together with very inappropriate, very harmful things, I don't want to mistakenly say I'm saying these things are the same, because they are not. There is a movie called Soft and Quiet. I'm going to warn you, if you choose to watch this, it is not a documentary.

It is a fictional movie. It is very, very disturbing. It's disturbing because it goes over topics of racial violence.

It goes over sexual violence. There is a lot of things happening in this movie that are, in fact, disturbing. And it's even more disturbing because it's not that unrealistic in today's society.

It is something I could absolutely see happening, which makes it that much more uncomfortable. And it's an incredibly dangerous thing. So, essentially, the premise of the movie is a group of individuals who identify as extremist white supremacist-type people create, essentially, a group where they want to bestow upon the world the virtues of their specific love for, you know, white supremacy.

And in this group, they begin to support one another and egg one another on. And it leads to exactly the worst places that you could imagine. And bad things absolutely happen.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. They normalize the feelings.

[Lilin Lavin]
They normalized it. They gave voice to it. They gave support to it.

And it led to them, you know, instigating one another and then engaging in harmful behavior that was just, it was insane. The reason why I drew the parallel, the only reason I drew the parallel, was because when I feel like things like NAMBLA, things like MAPS, are groups that encourage people to act on the worst impulses from the thoughts that they have. Thoughts alone aren't awful, although I'm going to question you if you tell me that I think that it's okay to engage in a relationship with children.

I think it's okay to be a racist. I think it's okay to be a bigot. I might really kind of wonder and be a little uncomfortable.

But, you know, I might also ask you, well, what do you mean by that? What exactly thoughts are you talking about?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But if you go on to tell me that I think it's not really that big of a deal, you know, for an adult, you know, because some kids seem mature. No, just stop right there. If they're under 18, and you are over 18, that is a no.

You know, people say, well, what about parents that, you know, talk to their kids about comprehensive sexual education? That's not grooming. That's not pedophilia.

That's called being responsible. You talk to kids at a very, very, very age-appropriate level about very specific things that have to do with it. As someone that survived sexual violence, as an example, you know, I would teach my kids from very early that they have spaces that are not okay for people to ever touch.

Or, you know, if people do act inappropriately or do things that you should talk to an adult. And then I would go on to, you know, well, what does that mean? Well, you know, if someone were to pat, you know, your bottom, and that made you uncomfortable, they shouldn't be doing that.

You should tell mom or dad that someone did that. And then we would talk to that adult. And they said, well, what if the adult says that, you know, something bad could happen if I do that?

Well, no one should ever tell you to lie. And if they try to make you feel uncomfortable about lying, then there's something wrong with that adult. Mom and dad are perfectly good at taking care of themselves.

Don't ever be afraid of that. And, you know, still let us know. You know, so you have very normal discussions with your kids about things, unfortunately, that could, you know, happen in their life.

You know, you have spaces that are private to you. These are your boundaries. It's okay to tell people not to hug you, not to touch you.

If, you know, uncle so and so that pops over once in a while, makes you uncomfortable, you have a right to say, hey, I don't want you to hug me, you know, or auntie so and so or grandma, grandpa, you know, they don't have a right into your space. And it's okay to say no. And I don't feel like it.

[Tommy Lavin]
As you have an absolute right to have a safe space. And that's why I, I cringe when I see these communities. And again, you know, it doesn't matter if it's Christian, Catholic, pagan, whatever community it is, if they start accepting either apologist, or they start accepting people that are, you know, have hate this term that come out as, as pedophiles, because to me, maybe we could just call it admit.

Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
Okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
Let's do that.

[Lilin Lavin]
Because yeah, I mean, that's coming out is something that healthy individuals that have normal sexual desires, and normal, like identity, thoughts, things like that, are being very vulnerable, and sharing with people something that they know society doesn't consider acceptable, when in fact it is. So it's very different.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And unfortunately, that's the language that they use. That's why I was struggling to write, you know, okay, what do I say?

Because it's not the same sort of thing. Yeah, you're not coming out, you're admitting, you're admitting. Yeah.

And so when you allow those, those individuals into your community, you are risking your community, you are putting trauma on people in your community that have been that are survivors of that as well. And, and it's, it shouldn't be and you're also normalizing and it should not be normalized. It is not okay.

It is not something that that should ever be normalized. No, I don't care how much compassion you try and have. Again, even with TST, they have the tenets of compassion and empathy at the end, it says within reason, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
Now, this is beyond reason. Every community has an obligation to responsibly discuss the fact that these individuals exist in society. They do exist.

They are real individuals and they are afflicted with this for a variety of reasons. And not my job to be responsible for that. As people in a society, we have a right to be safe.

We have a right to not have our personal boundaries violated and we have a right to be respected regardless of who you are, how old you are. This goes absolutely against all of that. So we as a community have an obligation to discuss the fact that it exists and to encourage people to be honest.

To be honest with that without necessarily assuming the worst, but then to make very clear boundaries about those individuals and to encourage them to get help. I'm not discussing any kind of harm coming to them or vigilante justice sort of situations or, you know, assuming that you know what that means in their life. I'm telling you, that's a point where you say, thank you for being honest.

I encourage you to seek help. And then to be very clear with them. If you have a family, you have an obligation to your family to protect them.

You have an obligation to your community to protect them. Nobody wants to or should be exposed to this individual without being fully aware of the reality of the things that they struggle with. And if that's too much for them, I'm sorry.

That's an obligation you have to people when you have this problem.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so when I see either people admitting to this or I see people pushing the propaganda, they're apologists, they're trying to normalize it. Maybe in their mind, they think they're trying to do a good thing and help people be accepted.

But no, this is nowhere close, nowhere even on the same page as the struggles that the LGBTQIA community have gone through to have normal relationships. Again, normal relationships. You might not like those relationships, but they are normal relationships in no way, shape or form.

Is pedophilia a sexual orientation?

[Lilin Lavin]
No.

[Tommy Lavin]
It is a threat. And so the person, whether they have acted out or not, is a threat. And I would even say people pushing the propaganda are a threat for me.

I mean, I want to be aware if you're pushing that. I want to know that's how you think because our levels of, you know, our fear indicators or danger indicators are way different. And I need to understand that about the people that I'm around.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. Yeah. There's not a world in which I'm going to tell you that it's okay to normalize this.

And it's not just pedophilia. If you're someone that has a sexual deviance that leans any kind of, whether that's, I saw something earlier today, which was very disturbing for zoophiles. That's another like yuck, gross thing where you're, you know, condoning the assault of animals.

That's also gross. That's not acceptable. If you're someone that's fine with like necrophiles, again, not okay.

Like these are things that go, again, when you are breaching consent and when you are imposing your desires on other people, when you're using people instead of engaging in healthy reciprocal relationships, there is a problem.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And as part of this, you know, because again, we see this, we see this propaganda. We see this stuff on online, on social media all the time.

We hear it occasionally in groups as, you know, in discussion groups and things like that. And so I was kind of curious, so I talked to our children who are teenagers, and one of them is an adult, you know, you know, I wanted to see because Gen Z and all of that, you know, they are more of a open minded group. So I wanted to see, is your generation actually looking at this in this way?

So I sort of asked the same sort of questions. Do you see pedophilia as a sexual orientation? Do you see these people as a threat, whether they've acted out or not?

And do you think it's okay to add individuals like this to a community in order, whether you're trying to help them or not? And it was amazing that both of them asked independently, they were nowhere near each other. It was totally different days.

They gave the same exact answer, which is no, is not a sexual orientation. Yes, they are always a threat. And no, they should never be added into a community.

Because by doing that, you're normalizing it, you're making them feel like it's okay. And you're starting to give them confidence. And they should not have confidence that these feelings are okay.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah, I've seen lots of different arguments about why it's damaging to treat people who struggle with this in certain ways. I saw some really not good comparatives drawn about this was exactly how people used to talk about the LGBTQ community.

No, no, no. Nope. Or immigrants.

Oh my gosh, yeah. And I have to be very clear, that's another community that's been very harmed by this crappy narrative that people try to say, well, you know, these people come over here and do these horrible crimes. No.

Every single group in human existence has people that have sexual deviancies. And among them will always be a portion of pedophiles. Doesn't matter what the group is.

Doesn't matter the gender. Doesn't matter any of the socio-political, socio-economical. It's not a barrier for people that struggle with this.

But they don't belong to any of those groups. They are their own group of people with this issue. They're not a society.

They're not a community. They are a group of people who share the same affliction and should be treated with caution. And they should be treated.

We need better medical care. We need better access to medical care. We need better screening processes in prisons, screening processes in different portions of our society.

We need better options for people that struggle with the unhoused community, because there are people that have these issues that are not able to function. We need to be able to recognize that these people are dealing with that and to find safe ways to help ensure that they're getting the help they need and they're not a threat to other individuals.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the one thing that I've always been able to hang my hat on, well, I shouldn't say always, because since I've become, in the 30 or so years that I've become a Satanist, that I've been able to hang my hat on, is that in no way, shape or form has Satanism or Satanists ever accepted pedophilia, whether NAMBLA, MAPS, whatever acronym rebranding they want to call themselves. And it's always been very clear from the very start, no, this is not okay.

It's not accepted. If anybody in the community finds out about somebody, they're ejected from the community. And I've always been able to feel very safe in the Satanic community, because I know that it is like a core, one of those core sort of things.

Whereas when I look at the Christian community, I see a lot of the opposite. I see radical forgiveness. I see them move, and I include Catholics in this.

So when I say Christian, I go everything from Catholic all the way down to evangelicals. I see them move a person that they know did something to some children from one location to another. They ignore it.

Everybody deserves forgiveness sort of bullshit through that. And no, I'm not okay with that. And it is a threat.

And that is when it becomes dangerous.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, if you have people in an organization that you feel are valuable in that organization, and you want to find a safer space for them, make sure it's a space that people are aware of their affliction, and where they won't be exposed to, you know, people that are vulnerable to that affliction. I mean, there's tons of places where you can have people doing things that they won't be around kids. And if you as an individual are so impassioned to aid these people, then find programs that work with them and help to provide the support they need to not be offenders.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, all of those is assuming the person has not offended yet. Now, the minute you offend, and again, I'm going to redefine this because I want to be crystal, crystal clear.

Offending is one picture, one video, it does not necessarily mean you went out and did something physical. It is one picture, one video, anything like that, because there is a victim behind this. The minute you offend, at that point, then yes, they need to be some sort of a legal option.

However, you know, whatever punishment is doled out needs to happen. And then whatever treatment and stuff like that. But it is pretty well documented that once people offend, they tend to re-offend.

[Lilin Lavin]
The rate of recidivism. God damn it. Yes, that thing.

The rate of recidivism. Fuck my life.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yes. Yes. And so yeah, once that line's been crossed, all bets are off for me.

Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
If you have an image, you're more likely to get more emboldened to find more images to feed more desires to then go on to something more and something more. And then it just becomes a kind of a snowball effect where you're just trying to constantly chase that feeling.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And again, having a group of people together, a group of people that are apologetic or overly sympathetic only normalizes, only enforces that those feelings are okay.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, I'm not talking about support groups that are led by care facilitators that know what they're doing, where they help each other to move past these thoughts and recognize that people in this group are suffering from it and encourage each other not to do the bad things, not shitting on those. I'm talking about groups of people like these other ones that are self-led, you know, and that includes some of the groups that say that they're anti-contact groups. It's something that I've seen within the pedo Burt community where they're supposedly encouraging one another to not do the thing.

I just feel very uncomfortable with that without some kind of intervention or observation from someone that is aware and able to kind of be on top of whether or not there's risks.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And one thing I do want to say is, I know you've been public about things that have happened to you in your past, but I want to thank you because you were more public in this than I think you have in other episodes. And you have done an extreme amount of work and you have done a wonderful job of, you know, moving through the things that you need to do in order to, you know, kind of live a more normal life.

But I know, you know, forever, you were changed and you were still a wonderful mother, still a wonderful wife. And I just wanted to appreciate you for being so open with the rest of the community, because I think it's helpful for people to see that there is life afterwards.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. I hope it is helpful. It's not to say it's not without its challenges and difficulties, but there are so many people that are struggling right now that may be even still going through abusive situations and they are afraid to speak or they cannot speak or, you know, people that never want to actually share that this is something that happened to them.

And that's their right. They hopefully are getting help from someone and able to unload that burden somewhere safe, because it's a lot to carry. But whatever your process, wherever you are in that process, you have every right to it, as long as you're not harming yourself in a way to try and cope, because that's when things can get really ugly.

But, you know, my hope is that by speaking out that I can help people recognize that they're not alone and that there is a future. And, you know, years ago when I was starting on this, I didn't know that there would ever be a positive later. You know, it was always the horrible things happening now, and there would never be a different option.

I would always be looked at like this person that I saw myself as at that point. And, you know, it does get better. It doesn't go away ever fully.

But, you know, you can lead a normal, healthy, productive life. Normal being, you know, being able to have enjoyable, healthy relationships with people and to enjoy your life.

[Tommy Lavin]
So, I don't think there's anything that we need to add to that. So, I think that is a perfect place to end this difficult, but necessary conversation. So, with that being said, Hail Satan.