Ep.12: The Invisible Abortion Border

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.12: The Invisible Abortion Border

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Today we're going to touch on a subject we've talked about before, which is abortion. But with this one, there's some happenings here in Texas.

And so we thought we would dig in a little bit deeper to kind of discuss what they're trying to do here in Texas. And which I assume because Texas is kind of like the testing point for a lot of these things, what you may see coming to a state near you.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and it's important to notice that it's not just Texas. This same thing is going on in other states. There were mentioned specifically, I believe, I'm trying to remember now it was Iowa, I think.

There were some other states mentioned and I will find that information and clarify.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But definitely what they're doing here is an interesting model and a model that should concern everyone.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, very much so. You can actually find this entire bit of information on the Texas Tribune. There's an article called Texas Highways are the next anti-abortion target one town is resisting.

And yeah, so if I get that and if I've understood this wrong, let me know. But they're basically trying to build this invisible wall around these states so that if you drive down the highways and you cross into one of these counties while bringing somebody to leave the state for an abortion, then all of a sudden you can be on the hook.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So they have different jurisdictions that are border adjacent communities. And each of these towns are being approached by incredibly conservative individuals.

One in particular, who is leading the charge to ensure that there is essentially a telltale law, which would pit citizens against citizens so that when individuals who are seeking abortion care, who would go to states like New Mexico, where there is still opportunity for people to receive that care, they would if they stop or if people had a suspicion, or, you know, things like that, people could then take down their information and then attempt to civilly as individuals, just, you know, try to sue them personally, which takes the state off the hook in that they can't necessarily go after the state itself, it then makes the burden placed on the individuals, which leads to a lot of other concerning considerations.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, and, you know, this kind of one ups the tattletale law we already have here on the books in Texas, in the sense that, you know, Greg, the, you know, Greg Abbott, the, yeah, what do I want to call, nevermind, I won't even go into what I want to call Greg Abbott. The holey roller from hell? You know, he put in that whole tattletale sort of law with the abortion ban, but this takes it like that step further, where they're actually looking at any way that you can get out of a state, you know, you think you take normal highways, or there's junctions or things like that.

And if it passes through one of those counties, if one of those junctions or one of those highways, like I-10 in Texas, or something like that, if it passes through one of those counties, then they're like, oh, we need to target all these counties. And so it's either like an invisible border, or it's like, you know, this sort of invisible screen going down these highways that each one of these communities have passed. And yeah, it's civil right now, but it's concerning to me because I read the tea leaves on a lot of these things.

And I could see depending on the way politics goes in our Supreme Court and all that sort of shit, because these things turning from just civil, but even being civil, I mean, in Texas, you can't, the way that the law was set up in Texas is if somebody sues you for helping somebody with an abortion, and you win the case, you can't get your fees back.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. But the important thing is, you know, the individual seeking the abortive care cannot be pursued legally, period. This law and a lot of the other laws only allow pursuit of legal action by civil individuals, citizens like yourself and myself, against the people that are helping them.

And that means anybody that's driving a car, providing financial assistance, any kind of a support system that helps them to seek abortive care is then allowed to be sued by individuals who disagree. And I want to point out that there have not been any such suits brought. And I believe there are a lot of reasons behind this.

I'm not a legal expert. So I'm not going to pontificate about all of that. But I think it's important to know that there have not been.

And I think part of that is because there is not a real successful way forward when it really comes down to it. And I just don't know that there's more to it than trying to use a fear tactic to instill confusion, and just general fear of trying to do this. So it's a mental control.

[Tommy Lavin]
They're trying to, they know, okay, we've gone as far as we can with stopping the person from getting the abortion. So who do we target now? Well, now we target anybody that is pro-choice, or is trying to help a person.

So literally, the way that this reads is, if you were bringing somebody, say, out of state to New Mexico for an abortion, or even providing funding, I want to make sure that... Yeah, that's where it's going to get at. And I was going to say, hey, here's five bucks, would you give Susie, you know, would you stop at McDonald's and get Susie some lunch on the way?

Because I gave that five bucks to help feed Susie on the way. I'm on the hook now. Somebody could technically say, hey, you helped this happen because you gave Susie lunch when she was leaving to go get an abortion.

And that's fucked up.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. But this is creating essentially a private citizen watch group all along the border. And it's, again, not just Texas, but it's very strong in Texas.

They know they have a lot of conservative communities along these border towns. So they're utilizing that and the support for conservative ideals to help strengthen these very intimidating tactics that are meant to psychologically restrain people from seeking care.

[Tommy Lavin]
Now, the one positive thing I found about this article was that I think and I truly believe they're starting to push this too far. They're pushing it far enough that even conservatives, even some anti-abortion advocates are like, whoa, whoa, hold on. This is like, look, we've already got the law in place that somebody can't.

Now you're, you know, you're going after people for trying to help a person, you know, and they use the terminology he uses in here. This asshole's name is Dickinson or Dickson. Yeah.

His last name's Dickson. And he uses the terminology trafficking. If you're abortion trafficking, which that's so beyond fucked up because you, you know, it gives a vision like you've kidnapped this person and you're trying because that's what trafficking is.

[Lilin Lavin]
You're, you know, taking someone against their will to, to participate in something they don't have any desire to participate in. And I have to be very clear when individuals are being brought to another state for abortion care. If someone is being pushed into that against their will, I am completely opposed to it.

Again, pro-choice means the choice of the person seeking the care. And if they don't want that care, then there's no reason anyone should be trying to force them to receive that care. However, if people are in a situation where they want that care, they have every right to seek it and to, um, utilize any resource that they're exposing, including or at their dispose, including individuals who are willing to help them to, to do that.

The cost of traveling outside of state is astronomical, especially when you look at the people that are typically affected by these bans. So you're talking about people that live in marginalized communities. You're talking about people that often don't have a lot of financial resources.

These are the people that are most affected by this. So time off work, child care for existing children, uh, gas money, the cost of the abortion itself, which usually there are some funds out there to help. But again, this is going to be impacted by these civil suits and, um, transportation funds that are provided will also.

So the person taking them is at risk. And Florida is doing something similar and you see it is affecting a community there. The, um, migrant community down there is being heavily affected because individuals who transport them are being held accountable for that transport and face legal, um, ramifications for that transport.

This is the same thing they're trying to do here with, um, pregnant individuals seeking abortive care.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. You know, and like you said, there's all sorts of costs that people don't think about, especially now that you have to travel out of state. I mean, likely Texas is a big state.

If, if you don't know, and you've never tried to drive through Texas, it's a huge state. You're likely going to have to stop for a hotel room, you know, you're sleeping.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm telling you, this is a traumatic situation for people. And not just in the state of Texas, but in particular, when you look at the rural communities where a lot of these individuals are really going to be struggling with the inaccessibility here, this is a heart like breaking situation that we're dealing with. These are people that, again, they already usually have children.

And if they don't, they also are dealing with other things with financial things. Work is not going to just let you off the hook for a week. And let's be honest, you have to get time to get there.

Oftentimes, because of additional burdens placed on individuals seeking this care, you have to receive a pre visit, you have to go through some kind of conversation, you have to wait on it sometimes 24 to 48 hours, depending on the state where you're able to get care. These burdens are put in place for a reason. It takes time, it takes energy, it takes money, you have to have somewhere to stay.

These individuals need time to recover. Abortion while it is a health care right that we should all have is a very demanding process. It is very physically and psychologically difficult, regardless what people might think for people who choose that care, they know it's the right thing for them.

Again, they should never be forced, never, never, never be in a situation where they're they're forced to do it knowing that it's not what they want. That's not okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
As somebody who's pro choice, I will fight just as hard for a woman that wants to keep her pregnancy. And somebody is trying to force her her to have an abortion, as I will for somebody who is pregnant and does not want that pregnancy. So pro choice means choice, you have the choice either way.

And that sometimes seems to get lost. Even on the pro choice side, I've seen people get upset, because we were following somebody on social media. And, you know, what they do is they kind of help bring people to different clinics.

And I think she was telling the story as one of the time the woman changed her mind. And, you know, she was like, okay, that's, that's okay. That's your choice.

That's part of pro choice, you can change your mind. And that's fine. I'll bring you back.

And if you change your mind again, or you want to And some people actually got upset at her. And it was like, and she was arguing, hold on, guys. Pro choice doesn't mean we're forcing abortions on people.

It means pro choice, the person has the choice, she changed her mind of her own will, and decided she wanted to keep it. And that's fine. And that's what we should be fighting for is allowing the person who is pregnant to make that choice.

That is the only person that matters, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
It is a very outspoken social account that does help people that want transportation to these appointments. And it's a, you know, they're not only providing the transportation, but they're a bit of moral support. Because you know, it is, it is a very demanding thing.

Even if you know, it's the right choice for you. There's a lot that goes into it. Either way, it is a life changing decision.

You have a child or you choose to end end the pregnancy and not have a child. And that's so important to remember that either way, it is something that will be a life changing decision for you. And it should be something that you put a lot of consideration into because it is something that, you know, you have to consider how you're going to feel, you know, years down the road.

And the plus side is the majority of people who do this of their own volition are very happy with the decision that they made, because they knew it was the right thing for them at that point in their life. And they couldn't provide for whatever reason, the necessary environment to proceed forward with a pregnancy. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
And that's part of the problem that I have too. I mean, beyond where they've taken the minimum time down on some of these, it's just things that are unrealistic, like six weeks or four weeks. You don't need, most people don't even know they're pregnant at that point, you know.

But when you bring the time down, you also bring the time down that the person has to actually think about, do they want this or not? They're rushed into a judgment one way or the other. And somebody could make the wrong decision either way, right?

Because they are rushed. And it's like, I, you know, science is pretty clear. Unlike when a nervous system, you know, is in place, when the heartbeat, you know, the heartbeat laws are bullshit, because it's not actually the heart.

[Lilin Lavin]
No, it's a sound created by the machine. Recognizing electrical impulses. So yeah, there's electrical impulses happening, but it is not in the way that you or I understand a heart structure, an existing heart.

And I do want to make a clarification and a correction. It wasn't Iowa, it was Idaho. So the states that have laws like this, or have tried to push laws like this, was Missouri.

They would have allowed any private citizen to sue anyone who helped a Missouri resident secure an abortion, regardless of where the abortion occurred. And then the other one was Idaho, which became the first state to impose criminal penalties on anyone who helped a minor leave the state for an abortion without parental consent. That is troubling to me, because sometimes minors are seeking care for incest related abuse happening in a home, you're not very well going to get support from the people that are abusing you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, the person that raped you isn't going to be like, Oh, yeah, hey, this is a good idea. Yeah, I mean, and so that's, that's the problem. That's the other problem I have with these laws.

I know right now, a lot of these are civil. But if you look at the way that the Christian Nationalists and the anti-abortion folks have worked is over years, they don't go for the target that they have immediately. They do it in little tiny steps.

And so once you make it civil, then that's your first step that okay, we're on our way, we're on our way to eventually make it criminal. And civil is bad enough. But once we turn the corner and try and make something like this criminal, then holy shit, all bets are off.

[Lilin Lavin]
And the gentleman doing this, his name is Mark Lee Dixon. He is an anti-abortion activist. He's been working on a lot of the laws that you see coming out, including the ones that have passed very much hands on with all this stuff.

And they do have the wherewithal to understand chipping away at it over time is just as valuable as trying to do it in one sweeping motion.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I will give it to the Christian Nationalists, the GOP, you know, all of them. They're very good at just chipping away.

They know that they won't get the whole thing at once. And they have patience. And they'll just slowly chip away at these things.

They get one law, then get another, then another, and another, and another. And then you're 10 years down the road. And all of a sudden, you're like, holy shit, how did that happen?

It happened one little bitty law at a time.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. And I do have to hand it to the person in this story, because the one that they focus on is a very conservative individual who is still very open-minded. They sit on the council in that community that is being affected.

And they were opposed to enacting this because they felt like it was unfair for them to impose their particular viewpoints and ideology on people who may not hold the same thing. And I respect that. And what really bothered me is this individual also owns a consignment shop.

And I'm not going to say who they are. You can go read the story, because they don't necessarily want to be associated with us. I understand that.

But I do applaud what they're doing. But they own a consignment shop. And one of the things that the extreme conservatives within the community who disagreed with them not pushing this, were like, well, we know where you work, and we'll affect your business, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And that's another way that they enact this type of extreme... It's tyranny. It is tyranny.

Other communities went through this. And then the actual groups that were pushing back against it or people that sat on government boards were removed.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, imagine that. Oh, you didn't vote the way that we wanted? Okay, well, we're going to remove you.

We're slowly moving towards theocracy. One board at a time, one law at a time, just slowly kind of getting there. And everybody's like, fucking ignoring it.

And it's like, oh, no, it's not really that big of a deal. Okay, well, when it becomes that, then shut the fuck up, because you had your option, and you had your chance, and you didn't listen. Yeah, I mean, I applaud this individual, not the one trying to pass the law, but this individual that's on this board.

Because if everybody thought that same way, I don't have a right to push my ideology on other people. That's choice. That's the only thing that people are asking for, whether it's when it comes to abortion, gay marriage, anything like that.

They're just asking for choice.

[Lilin Lavin]
It comes down to, well, what about the choice of when it comes to abortion laws? What about the fetus? No, it's utilizing another human being to sustain it.

And that human being has a right to decide if their body is capable, and if they themselves are willing to expose themselves to all of the risks, which is stroke, diabetes, blood clots, heart conditions, pain, and discomfort, which, yeah, that's something, sure, you can mitigate to a degree. Loss of a sex life. Loss of your work.

A lot of people who become pregnant, if they're not working in certain positions, they will be fired, because pregnancy is seen as something that impedes their ability to actually do their job. They won't have child care. They won't have financial services.

They won't be able to afford health care. They can't already afford the life that they are living at this point. It puts them at an unnecessary additional strain.

A lot of the people voting to take away these rights are also not voting to provide additional health care, medical care, leave, child care, any of the necessary things, good education. I mean, here we are trying to recreate segregation politics by creating voucher programs, which we know are specifically designed to further segregate communities. When you start looking at the bigger picture, I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to go back to the 1950s.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, no, it's not. Leave it to fucking Beaver. We've kind of talked about that before.

In schools, they no longer, at least in many of the conservative states, they no longer teach sex ed. So that is a window into what they're trying to do nationally. And it's interesting to me that when they first overturned Roe v.

Wade, they were like, bring it to the states. It's states' rights. Well, now that they're losing at the state level, they've thrown this on the ballot.

And every time they've thrown it on the ballot at a state level, even in the most conservative states, they've lost. And so now they're like, we need a national, federal ban. Wait, hold on.

What the fuck? So in the very beginning, you were saying, bring it to the states, bring it to the states, bring it to the states. It's not working at the states.

Oh, let's bring it to the federal level. Right.

[Lilin Lavin]
And it just shows you the hypocritical nature. It's not about the fact that they thought it's what most people wanted. They thought they were going to win by pushing it and bullying people and trying to say, well, we're not saying that the government should decide.

We're just saying that at a state level, the states should decide what they will and won't allow. And when we're talking about the state, we shouldn't be talking about state legislators. We should be talking about the constituents, the people that put legislators in their positions.

Those are the places that should be allowed to vote. Those people, those individuals that build and make that community, that put these people in their seats, not, oh, I voted for so and so. And yeah, he has an abortion opinion, but really it was all the combination of things that I wanted them.

I knew they were pro-life and I voted for them. No, we're not doing that. We're not going to try to push the fact that you knew this person you voted for was pro-life.

So by default, you must hold a pro-life stance. That's wrong. Put it on the ballot independently and allow every community to vote what they want and watch what happens.

And if you don't like that, stop pretending. Tell everyone what you're really saying from the conservative standpoint. We want to force you to just date a pregnancy, whether or not you want that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, well, they basically want to force the theocracy down our throat, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Even if we take religion out of it, let's just pretend that that's not it. It's authoritarian.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
To sit there and impose on others based on what you, a small minority of people, and I know they're loud. I know they're aggressive. I know in a lot of ways that the rhetoric is scary, but these are still a minority group of people in this country.

And if we would like to maintain a healthy balance, the rest of us who have different opinions but can agree that this should be left up to the individual have to work together because it will not stop at abortion. I'm telling you right now, other things will begin to get affected when you start taking away people's right to privacy in their medical decisions. If you think the way insurance can influence your medical care now, think forward to what this means for the government stepping in for other things they do not agree with.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And the most hypocritical part to me, and this is where they get people and I'm like, do you not think like, does the brain in your head not work? They're like, the government, we should take it away from the government and give it to the state.

That's still the fucking government, right? It's the state government. And so you're not taking it away from the government and giving it to the people.

You're taking it away from the federal government and giving it to the state government. And then these, a lot of these people, you know, post themselves as libertarians. And I'm like, you cannot be, I don't give a fuck how you rebranded it or whatever.

You cannot be a libertarian and be against bodily autonomy. That is like the number one foundational belief of being a libertarian is the government cannot tell you what to or what not to do with your body. And like true libertarianism goes all the way like drug use and sex work and all of that.

[Lilin Lavin]
We're not touching on all that today.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. But what I'm saying is like, you know, these people, they're like, oh, I'm a libertarian, but I'm for making anti-abortion laws. You can't be a libertarian.

You're not a libertarian. You're a conservative who thought that libertarian sounded cool. And so you're using that name and that title.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I fully support anyone who doesn't want to participate in something that is legally available to a community. I fully support you. Don't do the thing.

And it sounds callous because I'm told, you know, well, but abortion does affect us, you know, our moral compass, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So what you're saying is you believe you have the right to push your morality onto other people's private, personal decisions. Can I do the same to you?

Would you be okay with that? I mean, for them, unfortunately, that would not mean a limitation on very much. But if you look at that, where are we going?

Who's deciding for who, which group? What about when things shift? Because folks, ideologically, in history, go ahead and look, things change.

And what may be in power, like holding the bigger portion of society today will shift. Will you be okay if another religious majority were to take over? Will you be okay if, you know, other types of ideology take over?

How will you navigate the environment where you've completely restricted your right to make independent individual decisions for your life?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, this is this to me goes all the way back to the First Amendment. You know, you're not supposed to be pushing religion in government. You're just you're not supposed to be basing laws off of religious doctrine.

And it's ironic because a lot of the people that push this, they argue so strongly for the Second Amendment. And if you understand math, one is the most important, you know, like when you make out a list of things, number one is like your most important. This is the thing that I definitely want to make sure happens.

So number two was the second important thing to the founders. Number one was that you are not using religion. The United States is not a theocracy.

They were so, so adamant about that.

[Lilin Lavin]
They left a tyrannical type of theocratic government. And they knew whatever might come for this country, the only way that it would remain free is to allow people to have pluralistic identities that aren't bound by one specific religious doctrine. And that's a healthy way to look at things.

We have more strength being different than we do by trying to cram everyone into a belief that they do not fall into. But, you know, we have freedom of and freedom from religion. And the Second Amendment is really jacked up for me.

And I'm not going to get into that here. But you know, you touch on that, the amendment that's being affected, I think, most in this instance is the 14th Amendment. And the 14th Amendment guarantees citizens the ability to travel from place to place.

That is a freedom that we are guaranteed in our constitutional rights to pit citizens against citizens and create tattletale groups is essentially just creating a constitutional violation without any remedy, because you cannot necessarily fault the state of Texas for encouraging this because it's being brought by individuals. Now, I will say the, you know, AG for the state of Texas is biased at best, a criminal, in fact, and they have no problem. I mean, doing the most horrible things.

We now have a law on the books where if a prosecutor chooses not to pursue an abortion claim as a legal issue, and not to pursue charges against it, where it can be forced by the AG, it was prior to that law, something that could happen. The subtle change in the language being that now it must happen, and it must happen within a certain period of time. And if they do not choose, again, where's the prosecutorial discretion, which is supposed to exist, there is no longer that.

Yeah, they took the they took that away from the DAs. Yeah, you know, so now the AG has has an ultimate obligation, not an opportunity, must, instead of can, must pursue charges against these people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, so, which now, all the doctors in Texas are scared, they'll basically let a woman go septic before they they help her because they're like, I'm not going to go to jail for the rest of my life, you know, and it's just, yeah, it's the domino effect.

[Lilin Lavin]
Every state needs to really think about what they're doing. Another state recently lost a child. Well, not just children, but a cardiology specialist who worked with children worked a lot One of the foremost cardiology specialists in the nation left a state because they had extreme anti-LGBTQ laws.

They didn't feel safe in that community, and they've left. And if you think about this, we're going to start losing medical minds, very important medical minds from states, and they will all move to states that have very different, more open minded laws, more safeties and security for them. And what will happen to these other states?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, businesses will leave. You know, I mean, it's got a it has a domino effect. There's a reason why you see Greg Abbott out there on on social media, begging businesses to move to Texas, lying, right?

He lies, but he's out there begging to get businesses to move to Texas. Well, you know what, if businesses were tripping over themselves to move to Texas, you wouldn't have the governor out there begging them to do it. You know why you're begging?

You're begging him because you've created basically a little theocracy with inside of the United States. You know, you've created the theocracy of Texas that is run by dominionists.

[Lilin Lavin]
This is very off topic, but a couple of days ago, actually, Abbott was out there saying, well, Texas educates more than one in 10 of the nation's public school students. Folks, go ahead and look at what Texas education rankings are. It's not too far behind health care, mental health, and those numbers are not good.

We're near the bottom. And the worst part about that is, and I think everyone around the nation needs to understand this, Texas is one of the largest states. And as one of the largest states, they set the precedence of what educational material is out there for the nation.

We are, again, near the bottom. We're enforcing religious crap in our education. We're removing important educational aspects, which, you know, that's what I thought education was for.

And then the material that's being put out because of the changes and because of the mentality here will affect our entire nation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it'll eventually it'll have a domino effect. And that's when I see laws like this, you know, the one that we were we were talking about, you know, these like invisible anti abortion borders, borders, and when they start using terminology, like abortion, trafficking, trafficking, you know, that is really disturbing. And sure, if it was only isolated to Texas, then okay, yeah, those of us in Texas, we'd have to deal with it and figure out do we want to stay here.

But the problem that we're running into is you see shit in Texas, you see shit in Florida, it's like Santa's and Abbott have this ongoing contest between each other about who can be the biggest dictator of their state. But then you see the other states start to follow because they see, okay, this is what worked, this is what didn't work. And so we become like the testing ground for what will pass in other states that are not as conservative or don't have dominion is running them where we don't even have the chance.

As a citizen, we have never had an opportunity in Texas to vote on abortion, the legislators did it for us, you know, so they never even put it on the ballot. And they'll say, Oh, well, we put it on the ballot by putting the legislators on the ballot. And that kind of goes back to your, that's a bullshit argument, right?

No, put it on, put it on the ballot, if you want us to be able to vote on it and see where it falls, it'll lose, you know?

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, it should be up to the constituents regardless. And if the constituents don't agree, and overwhelmingly, again, and again, granted that the timetable for when they believe abortion should be limited varies from wildly in all circles. But the fact is, everyone agrees that it should be up to the individual for the most part, there are always outliers.

And that's something that they're going to have to wrestle with themselves. Why do you feel like it's okay for you to push your personal beliefs on other people? And I don't just mean religious, if morally, you just feel that it's repugnant for people to, to have an abortion, that's, that's your right to have that opinion.

But why do you feel like it's okay to then decide for someone who's not you, what they will and will not have to deal with in their life, when you're not going to deal with it financially, you're not going to deal with it physically, and you're not going to deal with it psychologically at any point in your life?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean, they don't even want to, they go against raising taxes to help out schools. Where the fuck do you think these children wind up going?

[Lilin Lavin]
We have such an underserved system from top to bottom education, healthcare, mental health stuff, should be umbrella'd in it, but it's usually not even part of the healthcare conversation for whatever the fuck reason. Then you've got social programs, people trying to take away lunch programs for kids, you want starving kids to learn? Can you explain to me how that's going to work?

We don't have living wages. How are people supposed to supply the needs for their kids, food, all that stuff? We don't want to provide childcare.

Again, how are people supposed to work? And when these states do this, it's easy for some of us from a point of privilege to say, well, I'm just going to move. The majority of people can't just up and move.

House prices are ridiculous. Interest rates are ridiculous. Many people who could have qualified for a home before cannot qualify for a home now.

So what do you want people to realistically do? We are all dealing with this in different ways, and it is going to impact people across the nation. And we have to think about what kind of a nation do we want to live in as a whole?

Because it's not just Texas, it's not just Florida or Oklahoma or all the freaking southern states that are still fighting the same war from a different front. It's all of us together who suffer.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And like you said, even if, let's say, take our situation. Let's say we could move to a different state.

Can our children move? And do we want to leave our children? So it's not just, oh, well, if you don't like it, move.

Because it's not just, oh, okay, well, we'll just pack our house up and hopefully we can qualify for another house or something like that. But if you can, what about the rest of your family? It's like leaving your children behind the lines in a war zone.

It's just...

[Lilin Lavin]
That's not realistic. And I would never want to leave them. And we've had those discussions in our home, like many of you probably have in yours.

And what is the right thing to do? We are well past the point in our lives where we can just up and move everybody and it's fine, and we'll just start over again. That's disturbing for kids, regardless.

Even if you can do it. They have to restart their entire life. And it's at integral points in development where they're learning about friendships and community.

And you're really affecting them if you have to do that. It's a good thing if it's dangerous. It's worth the risk if you know that they're going to be put at risk.

I definitely feel for trans individuals and parents of trans children because they will not be allowed to have care in many places. And that does mandate you finding another way to live in another place where you get support because this is not a safe place for them anymore.

[Tommy Lavin]
Texas is not. Florida is not. There's many states that are not.

And they're just falling like dominoes. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
And so in those cases, I do hope that there are programs to help individuals. I know there are some, but when you're forced, because you cannot get the care you as an individual need, when you are forced to leave, there is really not an option. It's either take care of your loved one or suffer whatever consequences may come.

That's not realistic. So when you're forced to leave, that's different. But when you can stay or when you're obligated because you have other loved ones who you don't want to leave behind, like you mentioned, what are you supposed to do?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. According to them, you're just supposed to suck it up and deal with their ideology. And they're allowed to just push their ideology.

And you brought up a good point about other ideology because I've actually asked Christian nationalists this question. I was like, okay, the demographics in the United States are changing. And so you right now are okay pushing your religious ideology on people.

Let's say 10 years down the road, the demographics in this country have changed. And now there's a new majority religion that let's say outlaws alcohol. Are you going to be okay with that?

Because you set the standard, you set the standard with this. And their answer is, oh, that won't happen. Okay.

Well, when you come out of Never Neverland, and actually enter the real world, it can and eventually will every country has has changed, you know? Oh, yeah, historically.

[Lilin Lavin]
But there are other countries that used to have a lot of freedoms that we today still have. There were a lot of other countries that no longer have them. And it happened swiftly, and abruptly.

And then it was a long claw for those that could regain some of them. And others went even further backwards, to the point where people who once thought it was a great idea are now like, holy crap, what did I do?

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, that that's the point I try and make to is, you know, you think it's going to be this great utopia that Oh, well, we'll live under the laws and ideologies that I have. Yeah, you'll start out that way. But in order to keep these things, they get more and more extreme.

And you can just look through history, it is a pattern, it's the way that they hold power. And then eventually people you love, maybe even maybe it's not you, maybe it's your children, maybe it's your wife, maybe it's your brother, your sister, your parents, somebody steps over one of those new radical, more radical ideology, you know, for you, it's now become radical. And then they're suffering because of it.

And then you're looking around saying, holy shit, this isn't what I signed up for. Yes, it is. It's exactly what you signed up for.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. So I mean, it's upsetting and on a lot of different fronts, it's concerning, you know, as we end this legislative session and begin to move into another one, you know, we have to think about where we are heading as a society. And even though we all may have differences, and we should, I think differences allow us to grow as people recognizing why we feel a certain way about those differences, challenging our own preconceived notions, and looking at how we can benefit one another, regardless of how we might feel, I can still respect someone who is completely on the polar opposite of me, unless it comes down to things like a person's right to exist, that's non negotiable, a person's right to their own bodily autonomy and decisions about their body, non negotiable, okay, those things are not going like, I'm not open to debate on that, I will not have respect for you, because you've shown respect for no one else other than yourself,

[Tommy Lavin]
the minute you start pushing your ideology on me, like as enforcing it, or anyone, or anyone else, yeah, then then I'm done, you know, I can respect and I can have and I love having conversations about theological conversations and all that sort of stuff, I could literally sit on a Bible study, and I would have no problem, as long as there was an understanding that you can't push the shit through laws, that's when then I'm going to start having some pretty vicious arguments with

[Lilin Lavin]
you live your beliefs that you've chosen for your life yourself do that I support you 100% do not try to make me or other people live by your faith. That's your faith.

That's your business. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So yeah, I mean, we we thought we thought we taught I know we talked about abortion before, and we'll talk about it again. Because you know, it's it's something that you know, we're we're dealing with, but these invisible sort of borders when we saw this article, you know, when you read it to me yesterday, I was like, Oh, shit, we have got to talk about this. I mean, because this is like, this is fucking scary.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But as someone that has personally received abortive care, it's something that everyone has a right to pursue, for whatever the hell reason, you don't have to have a freaking normal reason that according to society, people are like, well, if it was healthy, and you're no, nobody's obligated to bring a life into the world, whatever your freakin thoughts might be around it, no one is obligated. There's so much more to it.

And that's up to each person individually to decide for themselves. So that's something I'm passionate about, because it's something I personally have experienced. And it's something I support.

I have all daughters, every one of them has that same right, I will bring them wherever they need to go, I will do whatever I need to do. If they choose to enact that right for their body, that's what's going to happen. Hell or high water, I will help them get whatever care they need.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, well, and it's sad, because right now a corpse has more rights to their body than a woman, you know, because in order to remove organs from a corpse, you have to have permission from that, that person. And you know, of course, they can't give permission when they're dead. So you have to have the permission, you know, on their driver's license or something like that.

But without that permission, a corpse has more control and more say over their body than a woman who is pregnant right now. Yeah, I should rephrase that than a person person who is pregnant, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm sorry, y'all can cry about it if you don't agree. But trans men are men, trans men can absolutely get pregnant. And they do not have any obligation any more than anyone else to to follow that through if they want to go for it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And every once in a while I slip and I'll, I'll say when it's just years of habit in the way that I've argued this, but I do try and be conscious now and catch myself. And if I do say something, I will normally try and catch myself and say person.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I appreciate that. Because all individuals that have the ability to become pregnant have the same rights. And I've had this conversation before.

True feminism is about challenging things when it comes to gender norms and, and expectations that inhibit people's rights. That's what I stand for, it will always be what I stand for. And it will be what I will, until my last breath.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
But this is just so huge, because there are long standing ramifications. We're essentially enacting a private citizen army to to monitor people's travel, and to attempt to, you know, just stop people from having the right to decide what's right, you know, their personal body.

[Tommy Lavin]
So I remember when Roe v. Wade fell, there was a couple videos that started to go out. And, you know, they were going off of the tea leaves that had been written that were touching on this subject, you know, somebody traveling, them getting pulled over, because they're trying to leave the state.

And people were like, Oh, that's extreme. That's, that would never happen. Guess what?

[Lilin Lavin]
Here we are.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's happening.

[Lilin Lavin]
Now, maybe it's not right now, the police, maybe it's not right now, you know, a border checkpoint between states, but look at what they're saying. They said, Oh, if we get abortion off the books, we would never take away contraception, right? We believe that, you know, each family has the right to their own reproductive decisions, each individual has the right to their own reproductive choices, you know, just not abortion.

That's just, it's not fair. Okay, so what are they talking about now, folks? Take a look around.

IUDs are evil and horrible. And birth control is horrible. And, you know, condoms are a good option.

But, you know, at the end of the day, there's there's things about that, that are concerning. And then they go on to talk about procreation.

[Tommy Lavin]
Screw you.

[Lilin Lavin]
I'm sorry, but sex is normal is beneficial to your health, to your, you know, well being to your relationship. It's a bonding exercise, it helps with your heart, you know, stress.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's fun.

[Lilin Lavin]
And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. You're not a slut or a horrible person because you enjoy having sex and you don't have to be in a committed relationship to have healthy consensual sex.

Yeah. So yeah, they're attacking all manners of different ways of life. And your way of life is yours.

If you respect other individuals and you're using consent, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own life.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yep. As long as you're an adult, and there's consent there, I don't care. And on the flip side of that, if you're somebody who, you know, is, doesn't enjoy sex, that's fine too.

That is your choice. You don't have to ever have sex. Yep.

And that's what we talk about when we talk about choice, is it is each individual's choice, what they want to do, how they want to do it. And as long as they are consenting adults. Yeah.

[Lilin Lavin]
It always cracks me up because people are like, well, you're pushing your personal ideology on people when you do these things. Okay. My personal ideology being do what you want, as long as you're not harming another human being, you know, and invading their individual rights as a person.

Oh no, that's awful. So you can do whatever you want, literally whatever you want, as long as you're not harming another individual and breaching their consent. So choice is a bad thing.

And you know, I go out there, you go out there, there's a lot of things we think should just be legal and have the same legal protections. I'm one of those people, you're one of those people, sex work is work. They should have legal protections.

They should be able to actually hold a business license and have a job and have all the safeties around that. There's so many things that come down to personal choice that I just do your thing. It's your life to live.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, well, I mean, I think we've, I think we've covered this one. Yeah, I think we beat this one, but it's an important one to really acknowledge and see what's happening.

You have to open your eyes and sitting in the corner. I say it all the time, sitting in the corner with your thumb up your ass, doing nothing is doing nothing. That is still an action.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and you know, at the time of recording, we're coming up on yet another large, you know, election year. I'm not telling you how to vote. I will never tell you how to vote.

What I will tell you is go vote and think about, again, what is your vote for? And I wish we were in a country that had two parties. I really do.

I wish we had a lot more representation and a lot more choices, but I want you to consider, you know, choosing not to participate is giving the vote to somebody else. And it may be somebody else that you wouldn't want to live under. So you have an obligation to yourself, to the future that you're creating, to go out there and learn about who's, who's up for election, what they stand for.

And it's tricky because we have people that keep flipping sides, but do the best you can and just vote for a future that you can actually be proud of.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I think that's a perfect note to leave this on. So thank y'all for your time.

Hail Satan.