Ep.37: Frontlines of Freedom - Battling Anti-Satanic Legislation

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.37: Frontlines of Freedom - Battling Anti-Satanic Legislation

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome dear listeners to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or a fellow satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. So today we have a whole bunch of people on the phone to talk about all of this fuckery going on with anti-satanic laws and shit like that. The revival of the satanic panic.

The revival of the satanic panic. Yeah, definitely. Since we have a bunch of people on and I don't want to mess up anybody's name, we should do introductions.

So why don't we go around the virtual room? Who wants to start?

[Nooki Sailhatan]
I'll go first. I am Nooki Sailhatan and I am the resident weed expert and I'm gonna pass it to Murphy.

[Murphy Fawkes]
I'm Murphy Fox and I am a professional cunt and I will pass it to Lilith. Thank you all.

[Lilith Starr]
I'm Lilith Starr. I've been involved with PSD for 10 years now and I started the fifth chapter.

[Lucien Greaves]
And I'm Lucian Greaves, co-founder and spokesperson for the Satanic Temple.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hey Lucian, welcome back. So actually welcome back to everybody because we've had like everybody on this call on the podcast at different times.

[Lilin Lavin]
And everyone knows who the fuck we are.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, everybody knows who the fuck we are. They listened to the intro. So, all right, well, we've done a couple of these already.

Like when the Arizona bill hit we did one on that and then during that I was like, hey watch another one's going to come out and then I was planning another podcast episode, but then the Iowa one came out the next weekend. So we went ahead and did that then we kind of skipped. We did some other subjects.

And then Lucian, I've seen you post on it, you know, I've seen some people be vocal, but I've seen a lot of silence too.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I think everyone here has been really outspoken, but I think we need to encourage more.

[Lucien Greaves]
And just to add, now Mississippi has joined the party and they've also proposed a respect bill for resisting escalating Satanism. And I don't remember what the rest of the acronym is. It's a pretty strange one if I remember, but obviously it's the same verbiage.

It's the same acronym. It's likely coming from the same source. So this is probably going to be a persistent problem despite the fact that the Iowa and Arizona bills have died so far.

They could be reintroduced.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, it looked like the Mississippi one when I looked at it was almost a carbon copy of the Iowa one. I think it was like word for word. It looked like they just copied sent the text file over.

[Lucien Greaves]
This is model legislation. This is coming from some kind of central organization that's trying to act in the same way as organizations like the Congressional Prayer Caucus have in the past, but our suspicion is it's new players who are even stupider than the Congressional Prayer Caucus because at least the Congressional Prayer Caucus when they were trying to create model legislation, Congressional Prayer Caucus or whomever else, when they're trying to create model legislation or something that's flagrantly unconstitutional, they at least tried to have some kind of legal theory embedded inside where they would lean their arguments into to try to make it sound legal or try to give a judge some kind of facile and unconvincing rationale for ruling in their favor. These don't even attempt that. These are bottom of the barrel stupid bills, just stupid bills made for stupid people who don't understand the law, don't understand the value in a democratic constitutional system, and they are just completely ignorant.

And these are the people sponsoring these bills now. They don't even write these things. They just put their name to them and then the public will have to pay the legal expense if it passes.

[Murphy Fawkes]
And just to reiterate the types of bills that these are, there are display and monument bills, there's also ten commandment bills, and there's chaplain bills, right?

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah, I mean I was speaking specifically about the anti-Satanist bills, but there's a whole new wave of model legislation now at the fore and it's a real theocratic push and it is definitely and obviously a threat.

[Lilin Lavin]
And the last one I think 1906 or 196 House, but it goes into ritual abuse, which is really insidious to me because it utilized a lot of very very satanic panic language where it's going into what is it? The repressed memory crap.

[Tommy Lavin]
So that was the Utah one. They looked like they kind of took a different sort of attack vector.

[Lilin Lavin]
That one was pretty insidious. And I know with the gray faction that that stuff is definitely top of mind. Holy shit.

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah, that's a that's a whole topic on its own. But yeah, Utah has advanced a anti-ritual abuse bill, which we were hard-pressed to figure out what exactly they were trying to outlaw in this bill. It doesn't really matter because really what they're codifying is this notion that these claims are true, right?

Conspiracy theorists love this. In lieu of evidence, they can present official documentation as evidence and they love to do that. And so you will see in conspiracist camps sometimes they will post affidavits from people claiming gang stalking or government mind control or, you know, official reports that they wrote up or things they tried to litigate and then they offer those things in and of themselves as evidence for their claims regardless of the fact that they don't have evidence to support those claims on the paperwork to begin with. The litigation goes nowhere. But when you have people this stupid in public office, what we're dealing with now, the types of people who will sign these anti-satanist bills, you also have people in office stupid enough to take these conspiracy theories seriously and this is just straight up 1980s satanic panic bullshit.

[Tommy Lavin]
Oh, it's straight from Geraldo.

[Lucien Greaves]
Like you were saying. Yeah, and they trotted out victims, you know, and the thinking there is that, you know, nobody can say that somebody wasn't victimized if they say they were regardless of how ludicrous the claims are. And they like to accuse gray faction of just doubting all claims of abuse.

But no, really the question is claims that are recovered memories of abuse, which is where we get these claims of not only satanic ritual abuse, but also extraterrestrial abductions, past lives, you know, hypnotic regression has never been something that's accurately brought forth. Any claims with any historical veracity behind them? But now, of course, we're going to have this conspiracy conspiracy scene again, kind of emboldened by the fact that you have people in public office at all taking this stuff seriously.

Now they have this testimony. They're going to have these transcripts and they're going to claim that this is evidence of this phenomenon because to them any you know, supposed eyewitness testimony, any anecdotal testimony, they don't seem to realize that that's the weakest type of evidence that is possible. They think it's the strongest.

And now we're going to have to deal with that. Yeah, I mean, what were they making illegal, right? It's already illegal to kill people.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lucien Greaves]
Ritual murder was ever was ever something you were allowed to do. And we're also seeing bills, you know, unrelated to us where you just see idiotic bills being written where people are literally trying to illegalize what they already define as illegal immigration. Yeah.

So this gives you some sense of just what's the state of disrepair American politics is in right now.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I did appreciate with the Arizona bill where we got to call out one of the other Senators said that Hoffman was anti-erection. So oh, yeah, I did appreciate that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah She she she one of the senators that was like, well, we know he's against erections because he changed the language from displaying satanic to erecting to erecting I guess it was something with the language that display didn't work. So he tried erecting and then one of the senators Yeah, well, we know how much he's against erections but you know, this still doesn't work

[Lucien Greaves]
Well, there are ways to shame guys like him in ways that could actually hurt his reputation more broadly and those are the kinds of things we might want to work on if we have the time and inclination to you know, just go on the attack, but the the fact that you know, general media in Arizona We're covering this and even the ones who didn't have any sympathy for us were skeptical of the vague words Of the bill and its broader ramifications to the point where you know One of the primary universities in Arizona has as its mascot a devil And the thinking was is you know, due to the language of the bill this mascot this Arizona devil would be illegal and anything publicly funded or any public spaces so that put people on edge and that kind of thoughtlessness that kind of Irresponsibility and putting forward a bill that obviously has those kinds of negative ramifications Even if you don't care about satanists Those are the kinds of things you can hammer on to show that this guy is an irresponsible Asshole who has no business being in in public office

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and the part that I keep hammering people on is it doesn't matter if you're a satanist or not if they deem you're a satanist you're a satanist and we actually saw that with the Arizona bill because The one senator for the first committee that no no the one that was against it.

I forgot his name. Oh, yes No, you're right That was speaking up against it Then they put a smear campaign out on him saying that he was sympathetic to satanism or he was a say, you know They basically did to him what we were saying. Hey, look, you don't have to be a satanist To be labeled a satanist, you know, look at fucking taylor swift.

She's a satanist now, you know I mean everybody that they don't like is a satanist and that's how why it's so dangerous To have these types of bills out there

[Lucien Greaves]
well, there's a real gray area too when it comes to religious belief because when they say That satan is universally recognized as the enemy of god immediately I think of the research I did into a cult in the 1960s called the process church of the final judgment.

They venerated equally christ satan jehovah and lucifer and you know, they saw them as being equal opposites and It seemed like their their theology kind of changed by convenience when they were kind of trying to market themselves and figure out who they were and they never really at least You know in some segments say they were never quite clear as to whether they were Entirely theistic or if they viewed these things as these kinds of psychological paradigms that exist within each of us and we need to kind of reconcile these opposites and realize these uh, You know this the satan and the christ within ourself and they started out as this kind of psychotherapy cult But in any case without getting into too much background about them, you could say okay this is the religious conception that doesn't agree that satan is the uh, Is is recognized as the enemy of god, but is an equal opposite component in the universe that banalizes things out And you know other other religious concept other people of a religious mindset can can take that point of view, too But they're you know, like the process they were often called satanists Because of this because they utilize satan and lucifer And often you'll see the conspiracy theorists completely ignore The christ element the christian cross that they use the jehovah that they venerated And all that type of thing and I think we would see that happening if a bill like this came through by convenience They would say well the process doesn't count They were satanists too And I think they would say that of any sect that just didn't agree with this notion That satan is the universe is universally recognized as the enemy of god and that to venerate satan Is by definition to venerate cruelty and all that, you know and to reject everything That's good and moral in the world and that's that is not the territory The government should be in that was never the territory The government was supposed to be in and to even see people thinking along those lines shows a real lack of public Education. I mean that a politician can even Even put their name to this bill that they didn't write and try to advance it without being publicly ridiculed into public Non-existence is a sad state of affairs

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, it was really sad to watch the initial vote because everyone except that one senator that tommy mentioned was in support of it and they gave their reasons why and they were Explicitly rude to satanists that showed up to tell them why they were wrong

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, if it wasn't for mendez, it's who the senator Um was at the time that was actually speaking up. I remember when he said is it because it's insulting to your religion?

I mean he did do well to redirect the points, but everyone that tried to speak up that wasn't confident in what they were trying to express they uh hoffman made special attention to trying to rip them apart and to Intentionally shake them just to make them look bad.

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah, and i've been on twitter uh, and i've tried to provoke hoffman i i've uh tagged him and things and you know, I uh, replied to some of the things he posted and I uh I publicly stated that it's questionable whether he's literate and he hasn't engaged with me And I just want people to know you can do this You can also call these guys assholes. You can call them out on this and Not only can you you should yeah, and I think some people are worried about our religious status and whether or not they're going to run afoul of the johnson amendment, which You know because of our tax exempt status says we're not allowed to get into political matters But I think if you're going to look for a model as to what what's acceptable If you're posting things on your congregation page I would say Use the model we put forward on our main tst page But if you're wondering to what level you can fuck with these asshole politicians Look at my page like I sent a personal mayonnaise commercial to former senator jason rapert in arkansas not long ago Containing a nude picture of me on a bare skin rug.

It was actually for reynolds body um, it was just a little valentine's day present to the homophobic senator Jason rapert and you know, that's I mean don't make threats or anything, but just Feel free feel free to point out publicly how dumb these guys are go ahead engage with it that appearance of Consensus that appearance of mass outrage really is meaningful people really They take more from that than they probably should and you know Conspiracists are opposition. They're not concerned with evidence. They're only concerned with that appearance of consensus They will sometimes post to me absolutely Non-speculatory responses to the things I said that don't address anything at all and it's questionable What it's even trying to say and then after their replies that make zero sense They'll have people jumping in and saying yeah, you fucking told them And I think well that is really stupid, but I also think two can play that game.

Exactly Yeah.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, so I'm I'm positive that there's been some misinformation some miscommunication and maybe people just genuinely don't understand I'm, not sure but I think you explained it well, but just to be clear someone you know the thing that people are worried about is that They feel like they can't comment on this because it's a bipartisan issue And just to be clear if you're talking about your religion Satanism as a satanist and a representative of tst That's something you can talk about as long as you're not endorsing a particular party or candidate, right?

[Lucien Greaves]
And that's that's I think some people are confused about that. I don't I think if you just Look at the basic rules. It's not that confusing overall.

It might be counterintuitive Uh to say personalize it because I think in a lot of situations people will say don't personalize these issues in this case Personalize it go after hoffman, you know go after the guys who sponsored this bill But don't put it in the context of the republican party candidacy Voting those kinds of things but it's totally okay to say you are a stupid asshole and you are not qualified for Anything much less public office kind of thing, you know, I don't encourage people to vote one way or the other Uh, don't you know even stay away from Throwing them in in uh larger political groups even maga and stuff like that, you know And that doesn't really help your case. Anyways I mean, I know people are really against having bipartisan support on anything these days But that's a real problem You know, we we really score a win when we can get people who are just genuinely constitutionalists Genuinely have some kind of patriotic mindset and they might not like us But they also might like less The idea of giving the government the green light to tell them That if they so chose they could not identify with us That should be insulting to anybody whether they think they have any potential of ever doing that or not

[Lilin Lavin]
Go ahead.

[Murphy Fawkes]
This is just something I wanted to ask you guys because you're part of like a broader group of tst What do you think is the communication error? Like how can we improve this because I I genuinely maybe you can explain it to me. I don't understand Why we have people talking about every other issue under the sun taking political positions But for some reason when it comes to satanism, they're silent.

[Lilin Lavin]
I think that's a very multifaceted issue though I mean, it's going to depend on the leadership of each of the congregations and what's happening there I think some people are afraid to speak because it's a very uh tinderbox type environment right now I think they're afraid of backlash. There's some very anti-establishment groups out there that are involved And so I think there's a lot of different things people are running into And I think the biggest mistake they're making is being silent because this is not a partisan issue This is not an establishment issue. This is a freedom issue And if you like having freedoms This is a big one to kind of stand up and start taking notice and speaking about

[Nooki Sailhatan]
I think I want to be the devil's advocate real quick On what you just said because both you and tommy are in texas and you guys are probably the loudest congregation Slash tst members that i've seen like it's actually very very fucking awesome that you guys are doing that and you are in texas Like what is the excuse for anybody else?

[Lilin Lavin]
That's where i'm at Yeah, i'm fucking loud And we were very Against doing it at first because we have younger kids we have a lot of things to lose but it's those very things we have to lose that compelled us to speak because As our family has gone off and done their own things. We've seen how I have daughters. They've been affected by legislation We have a religious belief that we're very passionate about that's been affected by legislation We have a lot of freedoms that have been affected by legislation and we got tired Sitting by passively because if it's going to happen It's going to happen regardless of whether or not you speak and now is the time to do something before you can't yeah

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Yep, absolutely.

[Lilith Starr]
I think i've like i've seen um congregations and ministry cover other issues that are political like reproductive rights, um with no problem I feel like for some reason this got Mislabeled early on. Um, because yeah the the warnings i'm seeing are like be active But don't be publicly active. Um, and it was almost like the person Saying that Was directly conflating that um, just even discussing or sharing the news stories or sharing lucian's really on point writings with the johnson johnson amendments prohibitions, which are very narrowly, um, You know, you can't tell people how to vote you can't um support a particular candidate or party.

Um, But this it's weird to me because you know, we all saw what happened with the photo and just and you know Destruction happened and I haven't really seen this talked about much at all. Um, and I don't know why that happened. Um in in my mind, um, I think there might be A disconnect between like what em and our legal folks are working on And then what trickles down to say the congregations and the ministers as the priorities to focus on So when I started the fifth chapter in 2014, it was very obvious That the chapter system of the congregations and then later the ministry and the campaigns all exists You know to support their own communities and their own projects but also very much to support Whatever em is working on and whatever legal battles we are partaking in regardless of whether it's going on in our state or region or not, um, and i'm not i'm not seeing that as much these days as kind of like there's a layer of you know insulation there Um, and I think it would be beneficial if there was a way to like very much emphasize or encapsulate Like this is the issue that we want you all to work on And here is an actual call to action if there is any That we could spread out and disseminate to our members

[Lucien Greaves]
All right. Let me let me get real Here's the problem we've been dealing with for 10 fucking years like from the very beginning Uh, we started up the organization. We've had a problem of Narcissists joining with tst for a limited time some of them doing absolutely nothing Having zero contact with executive ministry probably having absolutely no participation in their chapters at the time or very limited or you know their congregations later on and then uh leaving Tst for some kind of personal dispute they've had with people or because they're disappointed About these general prohibitions we have about certain political grandstanding online publicly or whatever But in any case they weren't able to advance themselves As a spokesperson for the entire movement. They weren't able to turn it into something completely different and then they start uh trying to get attention by talking about how tst is actually this Organization that is secretly working towards these nefarious ends that benefit the enemy In in various ways and this was a formula that had worked for several people and they've written all kinds of slander against us and earlier on it felt like an existential threat against the organization and that is actually what led us to Go with uh the separate pillar model Where em decided we were going to work on this stuff We work on and the congregations would be separate and they could go, you know We that would be as much autonomy as we could possibly give them.

We don't ask them for anything. There's no buy-in There's no dues like and and they're they pretty much have latitude to do whatever and we did that because we thought Now there will be no rationale for attacking us anymore. Nobody will have a reason to come at us with their misplaced Dissatisfaction or their their notions that we weren't doing what they want to do They they can have their own projects to work on and go about it that way, you know You brought up the picture the whole atlantic article that didn't work either so now we're in a position where I feel like we have a large body in the organization that Really we don't have a whole lot of contact with when and then we're caught in a situation where people seem confused about what they can and can't do and we're still just waiting for them to go on the attack again, uh, because That seems to be something that's going to happen with a certain regularity so now we're looking again at revising the model in such a way where we do have that kind of Contact and we do integrate this and we get rid of that pillar system and we integrate the uh ministry under em So we can have that kind of communication.

We can talk about projects I still don't like the idea of making anything mandatory for people And I don't think we have to but I do think you know, anybody gets a pass. They're working. They've got They've got different interests even or they're just not ready for the fight for one reason or the other But I feel like when we have something the size that we do When you know Any any individual person gets a pass?

I don't even need to hear the excuse But when we get to a point where you know, we have a broad organization and and nobody's touching it You know, there's a problem, you know There's a problem either in people's priorities or in that overall communication Which we know is a problem and is causing us to want to restructure But that's just what we're dealing with and at this point the state of affairs is so uh dramatically at that point where we are we are either fighting this fight or we're not that I just don't have any sympathy right now for the narcissistic cunts who are going to uh come at us in the way that they have in the past and i'm willing to Be very clear with them. Just leave, you know, like If your interest is in something else, please go if you're going to be dissatisfied That we're fighting directly against satanism trying to be illegalized rather than your other pet causes There are organizations dedicated to your pet causes. We actually do take satanism seriously.

We take religious liberty seriously We take the theocratic overthrow very seriously. We have very limited resources and this is what we're doing Yeah

[Nooki Sailhatan]
And I just want to say real quick that I I feel like all of this shouldn't be explained to anybody in leadership I'm, sorry, because here's the other thing that i'm noticing when the picture and everything when whenever there's an incident in tst this the tst criminal management is nowhere to be found in terms of Accountability in terms of like what did you do to de-escalate the situation? What did you do to get em on the same page? What what did you do to?

To what did you do? What were you where were you at when this was happening because as a leader you should be stepping in to de-escalate You should be stepping in to look after your congregation to make sure that everybody is calm the fuck down Not handing out pitchforks because if these if if the structure is set up so that em can operate almost independently Then why the fuck is em being blamed for shit that is happening where they don't even have any type of oversight And how come nobody has called that out?

Yeah, that's a that that to me is a is a screaming You know, that's a siren right now and i'm just like what the fuck so so em it's em's fault But they're not there and so you're running the show, but you don't know how to solve your own problems is what i'm gathering

[Murphy Fawkes]
well, it's a it's misplaced priorities because it's it's referencing optics over principles and at the end of the day if any of these bills pass They're not going to have the ability to practice satanism, which is why we're all here So when they want to get on their platforms and talk about what they like and what they don't like in every other political cause Under the sun in tst's name, you're not going to be able to do that either if these bills pass

[Tommy Lavin]
So you shouldn't well, yeah, because it's all going to roll up into being a satanist anyways, right? You know if if you're this you're a satanist if you're that you're a satanist

[Lilin Lavin]
You're a satanist if you look at it like tst wisconsin They were out there doing their thing and they got put in, you know, they were in harm's way Iowa was in harm's way, you know when the groups uh different people in texas went and did what they did They were in harm's way florida's had people there are people there are people in leadership that are going out there Much like lucian and everyone else that is very front and center They're out there putting their ass on the line and we need everybody else to step up and meet us because we can't carry it by ourselves.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean you i'd say there's a there's a A minority of people that are doing shit and then there's crickets I mean, I think some people aren't sure what to do.

[Lilin Lavin]
I know as a person in leadership Sometimes you have all the good intentions you get involved with leadership and then you don't exactly know what to do and some people want to help encourage you and build you up and other people will completely shut you out and tell you I Had to figure it the fuck out you do it yourself

[Lucien Greaves]
and I think there's everything I can do assume good attention good intentions from everybody and just assume that Yeah, they feel like they they can't be engaged or they they're they're uh, they're unsure About you know whether they can engage or how and i've had that in mind So I I take ownership of the fact that you know em's communication hasn't been good with ministry but that's because you know, we've been in a you know in 10 years of having to live in fear of you know, there's some kind of uh, new new schism popping up just out of the blue because You know literally some of the ones that have been the loudest I have never I had never heard of until all of a sudden They were you know calling me out for whatever and trying to destroy my reputation Publicly, but I was speaking with matt kazaya one of the lawyers You know our lead counsel today and he is also going to help us draft something up for everybody that will Explain really what the hard limits are when it comes to the johnson amendment and you know, our only the real fear with the johnson amendment originally and people's interpretation of it is that They could look at some of the christian theocratic groups and think that we have the same latitude as them And to be honest the christian theocratic groups are breaking the johnson amendment all the fucking time Left and they do it with impunity and sometimes they do it And they'll publicly state that they're intentionally breaking the johnson amendment. This has happened before too I think pastor greg lock has been out publicly Uh, you know canvassing for trump and saying, you know, go ahead and come at me kind of thing And they're not they're not prosecuting any of these guys However, if they are going to prosecute the johnson amendment, it'll be against us And it's it's not going to matter but even that being said the uh, the restrictions are not Not too terrible if you actually know Know what they are and what you're doing and we are writing that guide up for people now

[Tommy Lavin]
yeah, and to your example, actually I saw a video on on twitter today and it was a Pastor and he was he was doing his sermon behind his you know, um podium And he said, uh, you know, I want you to vote for any specifically said the name then he said oh wait I can't do that because i'm not supposed to preach from the pulpit So hold on one second and he walked around still on stage to the other side of the pulpit And he said now i'm an every everyday average guy go vote for this person I mean, they were just making fun of the johnson act basically Throwing the finger up at him and it's public and like you said they're not doing a damn thing to him But they will to us, but you know, we have it

[Lilin Lavin]
It's incumbent upon us because we're out there like this to do the right thing. We want people to do the right thing We have all these values and we're standing by them and i'm proud of that Um, but now we just now have to help people navigate what that means as far as these conversations and I think we can do that

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah, but we're already not on an equal playing field The very use of the johnson amendment we can only suspect we wouldn't be able to get away with that but that's We can't just say And this is what really pisses me off sometimes about self-described activists They are they so easily throw in the towel and say well see that's just the way it is You know, that's the way we we don't have these rights. We're always going to be treated this way We uh, we are just perfectly content to identify as victims and not fight the fight And the fact of the matter is is even though we're not treated equally right now We can't let them fucking codify that we do have the law on our side right now And we need to insist on keeping the law on our side. We need to insist that you not be able to simply reinterpret the law in a way that absolutely violates both the letter and the spirit with some kind of A lot of these bill mill documents try to do it's not about elevating christianity It's just about recognizing this heritage and history of christianity, which is also a myth as well When you see it laid out the way they do it's usually based on the writings of this fuckhead David barton which if you're interested in that whole history look it up.

He's been kind of the primary, uh, fictional historian for the christian nationalist movement Who'd written the whole kind of story about the creation of the united states as a christian nation in this?

[Lilin Lavin]
Parallel universe that they're trying to bring into our dimension now Yeah, and him and people like tim dunn who are very happy to lean into the seven mountain mandate that they're pushing everywhere It used to be a very small group of people new especially in texas because it's strong here And now you hear about it all the time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I mean texas legislation or is um, it's all dominionists So if they're in the you know, a certain political party Yeah, but I think I just want to say like I am really upset that we haven't been more vocal about this because it's like if Satanists can't show up for satanists.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Why the fuck would anyone else care?

[Lucien Greaves]
Yep.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah.

[Lucien Greaves]
No, I mean I know exactly Looks bad. It it does look bad if it if it looks like i'm the only one out there I'm, not only a bigger target, but we are that much more susceptible. I think to False allegations, especially when we've demonstrated so many times that we're willing to melt down over things we shouldn't melt down over or things that we should Handle internally that we have people running off and trying to make public displays of it just shows that on the You know on the flimsiest of excuses, uh, you can provoke us to turn against each other and at that at this point we should really be Fighting to get ourselves in alignment and think these things through more clearly and that's just That is something that's always on the not not even far back in my mind. And so that's what I feel like for me.

[Nooki Sailhatan]
I feel like for me like I I I always think back to the capital indiana And and because I feel like that same apathy that we're seeing now It was the same type of shit when that happened And I was so happy that we all made it out alive that we got home and that we could you know Look back and be like, oh shit We did that but lead every like the days leading up to that the day of the fucking event Even like when we were traveling back like wait, hang on

[Lucien Greaves]
just so in case people don't know you're talking about the satanic planet performance at the indiana capital that we perform because they had let A christian nationalist essentially do a revival concert inside the the state house Uh capital building.

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Yeah um And so we went and did that and it was scary as fuck in the community It was almost like nobody really gave a shit about it. And so when that happened, it was like damn Okay, maybe they just don't give a shit about me. That's cool.

But now we now we're here now there's bills popping up everywhere and if you're if you've been paying attention and if you've been Actually advocating for trans rights. You're well aware that this also happened with trans rights These bills just start popping up and they're going to start popping up on this side too So you are aware that this is a pattern you are aware that that this is going to happen Where like where is the urgency because this affects you too. It's not just us It's not just us going to the capital and getting fucking shot now.

It's you too. It's your it's it's your freedom, too so Where is the disconnect like what is what is going on? Like I don't I really don't understand How and and actually I I will also go so far as to say that it's almost negligent of leadership to to not make people aware of what's happening and prepare them for for what's coming and make sure that There's they have a support system Make sure that everybody that their community is actually strengthened that they can lean on each other and that they can I don't know

[Lucien Greaves]
We are like when we're fighting things publicly You know our place is really in these particular battles against the theocrats and in favor of us being able to identify As satanists, but these things speak to other principles as well So it's not like these things are irrelevant to some of the other social justice fights people are trying to wage It's just we're not in the best position to do that.

We're in the best position to be doing What we're doing But if you look at what they're trying to do with things like these respect acts and things like that they are trying to prevent us from being to identify As we identify as we choose to identify In any public capacity does that speak to any other issue you think in your mind if you draw a hard line? On satanism and you say no the government does not have any place dictating how we identify If you think really hard you can also see that this has relevance to other issues that matter, too Yeah, this is where our fight is best fought. It's not completely self-interested Well, even if it is it speaks to principles that resonate more broadly with everybody's rights whether they want to Identify as satanists or not.

It's a matter of identity overall in that case

[Tommy Lavin]
exactly, you know and and that's I i'm out there every day trying to explain to people that because it's it's For me it rolls back to even if you're not a satanist or if you identify as a satanist or if you're You know part of any other cause they can just roll all that up into well you identify as this and you're a satanist You know

[Lilin Lavin]
If you're involved in any kind of activism, you know, you're satanic You're inspired by satan If you live in an alternate to them lifestyle sexually or individually you are satanic you're inspired by satan So whether or not you think that what affects us applies to you the greater public It's very easy to see if you connect the dots They're going to associate you with us one way or another and so when we fight as a community We're strong as together and I see it We have a connection here in texas with the pagan community. They recognize it.

We've forged good relationships there We support one another they see what's happening other people throughout other states are saying the same thing And I see more support now than I think I have At any other point in my life as a public satanist and where people do Now come out and support us and do say look what this means to the broader public So how do we capitalize on that and continue these discussions not only with the broader public but within our own community?

Because that's where we seem to be having the issue if you're here as a satanist to wear a t-shirt You might be in the wrong place But if you're here as a satanist, it might be time to go ahead and start doing something, right?

[Tommy Lavin]
But what you said was the exact the exact issue we we're getting support from other people that understand Oh shit, this this is wrong and all that but we're not getting the the vocal support from our own community I see it but as much yeah Yeah, we get more support from the pagan community that we know like the instance you were talking about then we do from

[Lilin Lavin]
On social media i've been out there very loudly for a long time and there's a lot of people that hate me and that's fine That's great good for you But there's also a lot of people that have seen over time and i'm often surprised someone I didn't even recognize was paying attention Goes, you know, actually I would rather have them hang out with me.

[Tommy Lavin]
I'd rather them in my church than you Oh, yeah, i've had christians come and say i'm a christian but I can recognize this is wrong You know, and if christians are speaking up for you know, again some of this stuff and our community's still silent.

[Lilin Lavin]
There's a fucking problem Yeah, so so evangelicals.

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah Exactly. We had at least uh, at least one evangelical publicly posting that he would support us on uh, and you know against utah when it came to the chaplain bill and try to try to get us get us in because You know, you don't know all kinds of religious denominations Have at least some people who understand the value in a secular government one that doesn't throw in their hat with one particular religious denomination or another and I am totally turned off to Uh the rest of the activism world because I think the focus on pop culture on comedians on You know what's on tv has overshadowed things in such a way That it speaks to an attitude that I think is completely outdated In one that doesn't realize the dire state that we're in If you are worried that people are able to publicly say things that hurt your feelings I think you're not really recognizing that people are doing things to literally take away your rights And I don't give a shit if people are saying mean things about satanists. They can fuck off.

I will say mean things back I will fight dirty. I am going to fight this battle dirty And when people ask does that mean you're going to rub elbows with you know, the fascist enemy or whatever? Yeah, probably today I was talking to somebody I have professional contacts with who himself has developed professional contacts with People we would definitely identify as our enemy.

Is there a benefit to that? Yeah, he said he would ask who's responsible for these bills the ones are putting they put forward In arizona and iowa particularly the ones that are geared against the satanic temple And he has a good chance of finding out exactly who's responsible for it in ways our research might not have Those are the benefits that is fighting to win That is not being squeamish about having a reputation tainted By speaking to people who could have some benefit in this battle. I will win this any fucking way I can like I am happy to have anybody on board with this if you're fighting the battle you are in I've had to fire friends of mine, you know from jobs i've lost Relationships over this it's been constant hell and kind of a nightmare I am not going to be sympathetic to people's squeamish feelings about superfluous things and about optics That's just not going to happen anymore There's not going to be any real catering to that kind of bullshit and I still feel like we give people all the latitude to do everything they want is just when When I feel the attacks are turned on us and when we're in this kind of dire state of affairs We really need to organize and get our priorities together And that's not to say like I put that on everybody else like we really have to do that At the executive ministry level we need to look at the structure of this We need to start communicating. We do need to unify the pillars and get everybody Uh to a place where they know where to check to see What projects are available where we need volunteers and things like that But we also need people to be cognizant to the fact that these are the things we need And you know, maybe we shouldn't be uh, so Uh open to people's superfluous and irrelevant bitching about some of the dumbest things or some of their uh, most, uh, most divisive behavior, I mean We have to get beyond that we have to start Considering whether we identify a satanist or whether we have different interests.

I would rather you know This isn't something this isn't a numbers game for us. Like I would rather have you know, 50 quality people Than 50 000 people just waiting to put a knife in our backs Exactly.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, but that's that's gonna scare people too because that's what you constantly hear Okay, you want to change the way em works? You want to change what the pillars look like and then everyone panics and holds their breath and they don't know what that means And that's the constant feedback that I get So I think one of the things that a lot of people are hesitant on is what what is that change going to entail for them? So I feel personally that that would be a great thing to kind of start with is say here's what we're doing And I know it's not easy for you to say.

Yep. I know magically.

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Here's the plan I've got it all laid out, but that is one of the areas of anxiety i'm seeing I have uh I have a devil's advocate thing to throw into this because I feel that the existing body of leadership should have already been figuring out a system of communication with em because Why is it like at the end of the day the problem that I see over and over is that? Nobody is able to solve problems They just create problems and then hand it back It just circles back to em and then eventually it's on their plate and they have to figure it out and it's like like we need em to be focusing on the fucking bills that are Attacking us right now. This admin shit should be handled By the body of leadership that was put in place to do this type of shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah That's all I had to say about that as congregation leaders though, right? It is incumbent upon us to address our community's needs at that level, right? So if there's things happening within my community my job is to listen and then where I can Realistically with what access to resources and whatever I have address that or help them to find ways To fundraise or whatever they need to address those things and if we were doing that from our level up It would be way easier for em to address all these other things because everything would be functioning The problem is there's too many people off on their own little tangents Not paying attention to the things that they actually need to do and it's i'm sorry

[Murphy Fawkes]
It's not just that they're not paying attention like in some of these cases people have been explicitly told not to talk about this whether that's intentional or not, like that's a huge miscommunication and the fact that Fire ffrf american atheists citizens united all of them.

They've said more about this than satanists have Yeah, other religions have said more about this than satanists has because they know that they're going to be next on the chopping block

[Tommy Lavin]
If this goes through, yep, that's the point I make every single fucking day on social media

[Murphy Fawkes]
We have these these chaplain bills specifically and we have a satanic ministry Has anyone asked is there a difference between a minister and a chaplain? Is there something I can do to help?

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and I know here in texas. We've definitely tried to approach that I know it's also happening in florida and they're also looking at it from their Perspective for the people I contact with and speak to over there and but for texas, it's a very vague program and each District is allowed to decide whether or not they even want to implement the program And then as far as the structure of it, well chaplain is not necessarily something that has to be certified in any specific way They don't need an actual education. They're replacing, you know Master's level phds that are supposed to be educated in Intellectual development and emotional development and things around children whereas chaplains are definitely not As to what is defined as a chaplain i'll tell you it certainly seems to be in the purview of christianity solely Yeah

[Murphy Fawkes]
Because you looked it up and you did your own research because you care my thing here is why is it? Ministry as a whole working with em and why isn't there mass communication to people to tell them this is what we need to do That's why I want to I want to have this talk. Let's figure out solutions.

Let's do better

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah, I mean, I think you know from from the em perspective I have to I have to assume that it it's on us and we do need to open up that communication We need to be the ones uh, uh reaching out directly now and making sure that You know people do understand the situation what they can talk about what they what they can't what the limitations are uh what we need from people and when it does come to the chaplain bills, like uh, We're probably going to do another live stream update with the lawyers But this is something we've been talking about in in your right. It does look like uh in some cases It's very christian specific, but uh, whether or not that's constitutional Uh seems to not have been challenged and so it's the uncomfortable reality here is that if they start saying that they'll only accept chaplains who have gone to seminary and and that's a very kind of You know that that might be fairly a not a fairly non-denominational thing in christian circles, but it certainly does cut out You know buddhists and others and and certainly, uh, you know humanists and for that matter, you know We've been talking about reaching out to some of the other organizations uh secular organizations non-believer organizations humanist organizations to in anticipation of precedent setting litigation in which we would fight against Narrowing the definition of chaplain to be somebody somebody who has gone through some christian specific training So that's that is something we are working on but it's also you know, I I would think yeah I would think our ministers would be interested in in what it takes to be a chaplain we're also going to look into what it takes for us to uh, Declare somebody a chaplain, you know, what kind of what kind of certification we're able to give what kind of accreditation we could possibly get um, so, you know some of the ideas they floated to kind of narrow the uh, Of the pool of people who could be chaplains in hopes of keeping us out or people with a masters of divinity And I kind of feel that that's that's a bit of a bullshit thing too. You're going to say that a satanist or Or a humanist chaplain is going to have had to have gotten a masters in divinity I I think that's a that's a case we could fight but I also think it's far better.

Uh, if we're able to get Uh organizations on board that are allies satanist organization, yeah Allies, we we've been since they pass a law here in texas.

[Tommy Lavin]
Um, And it's up to each district. It's we've kind of talked about I don't want the chaplains in our school But I kind of want our district to try so that we can oh for sure, you know Say, oh, okay. Hey, um, we're ministers and we'd like to join this program and see if they push back and then what we could do there, um as far as certificates, uh, Lillen actually found one too because our our district has two different there's the chaplains program

[Lilin Lavin]
The police the the police and the ministry and police program they have And it's the same sort of chaplaincy program that they are essentially trying to institute in students With students so they already have them that work with especially district police and the international critical incident stress Foundation is one of the ones they go to the icis f And there's a certificate in specialized training for critical incident stress management that one usually needs to have To be involved in that program and i've started looking at it because I want to apply to work with the police As a minister, although I don't know that they'll allow it. It's a it's an entry into the um The program and it it all comes at the hardship of and yes financial stuff does matter but to get the non-member Certificate for this to do the program is about 150 bucks and then there's about a $50 renewal on that so in texas at least that's some of the stuff that i've looked into because at least getting into some of the chaplaincy program would then Allow greater access if that's something that they're going to try and then i'm going to try and challenge

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, no, I mean at least giving it a try so we can challenge it or possibly challenge it if they say no You know if you've got the certificates that they require and all of that then

[Lilin Lavin]
Right and it's not there's no learning crisis management anyway, right? There's nothing wrong with those skills So it can be beneficial for us in the greater public anyway To go ahead and get involved at that level if we want to do these things because it's only going to benefit you to have That education understanding of the process anyway. Yeah

[Lucien Greaves]
One thing we talked about putting together was a list of open research projects that we have available And it's just the type of thing that people could do online Perhaps that we just don't because sometimes I don't think people realize what a small team is actually working on sometimes it's just like me or you know or rachel or aaron or malcolm and And like we're trying to spend time looking things up and trying to figure out, you know Again, like who's responsible for these bills and you know, what what other uh, what's the source of some other project blitz material? Or you know Or what does it take to become a chaplain in a certain place and things like that? And I think a lot of people don't realize that they could be helpful in that way Sometimes it's just it's just the tedium of looking for stuff and we don't we don't actually have access to this kind of thing So I think that could be helpful too if we set up some something on whatever platform where we could just have like An information dump where you know later on we could vet through it and try to make it publicly presentable if that's what we were going to do with it, but there are a lot of things that are open questions that I have that I just haven't gotten to because I'm doing other things and it's like that for for each of us and you know, just having volunteers interested in doing any of that and it doesn't even have to be something that People publicly know you're doing if you're if you're worried about that and you know not to denigrate that at all I know that's a legitimate fear for some people but there are ways people can help Otherwise entirely in the background that we just don't we just don't have happening right now

[Lilin Lavin]
Definitely and I think if this call highlights anything is that a group of people with very different skills can come together and be a strong voice working with what they have to build something that can make a change and if each group did that with what their skills are We could make a very big dent in these problems

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Absolutely like we need to get we need to get to the point where Us getting together and doing this doesn't feel like we're refugees or some shit Like this should be the norm and it's like you don't have to work with us You can form your own groups do it on your own but do something. Yeah

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, and that's something that we really saw after We did the victories of spirit letter and everything There were people coming out of the woodwork from all over the u.s And other countries too saying I actually care about this stuff and I I noticed this problem too and I want to help And so we just we need to have calls like this So we need to do things going forward where those people can get involved and we're actually achieving things and showing up for satanists

[Lilin Lavin]
Exactly.

[Lilith Starr]
I also go back to so I mean Lucian you have said that it is on EM To do the communication But I don't think it should be on you to like create necessarily the structure by which that happens because like I don't feel there's one centralized place where Everyone can listen to your communication Or get the call to action that needs to go out necessarily And I mean i'm kind of shocked to realize you don't have your own research team even um, so You know, I I wouldn't want to like take away too much from all the important fighting you do to create that kind of communication structure, um, so if there's any way any of us can help create that um, or You know bring in other people that are specialized in that I would love to see that because there I think that is part of the problem is that um, You know, I mean we're a satanist group too, so I don't think anyone including you Um was planning on having to like have this very top down. This is what we need to do and we all need to do it Um, but at this point we at least need to probably narrow something down.

Um, You know, the congregation heads have their hands full with those, you know our own regions for sure Um, and unfortunately also the constant drama that comes up with you Recognized earlier that comes up in our congregations all the time Babysitters at this point. Yeah some of it, but I think it would be Really useful and helpful to have the congregation heads and the ministry Um be sort of experts on what you're fighting as far as priorities Um any sources that you'd want to hand down to them Um any call to action that you would really like to see Um, and then you know, I think as middle management or whatever you want to call it Useful in Like this we're like, oh don't talk about it So anyway, I just wanted to say it's you know, we would love you to communicate more But maybe there's some way other people can help put that platform or place together

[Lucien Greaves]
No, i'm dedicated to communicating more. I just offer the excuse for my having communicated so little in the past or even even up to the present here just because like Just the fear I have of communicating with people at all. I've limited my contact with people to such a degree because of people's uh Tendency to you know conflate any uh any contact at all with any one of us into Having some insider knowledge that they simply don't and then try to entirely demolish our reputations over it And I feel like those days are over now.

I I feel like the uh last attempts at uh, grand grandstanding schism kind of uh fizzled out without the fanfare that they expected and honestly, I I Feel like I I owe them a thank you almost because it really made me feel kind of liberated and feel like you know now's the time to just make this real and get into the action and not just kind of Watch it play out and hope nobody tries to hurt me anymore kind of thing Because you know, you don't you don't even realize how people beat you down at a certain point until until something like that happens and that's you know, I feel like I'm kind of recovering from that now and now you know, the the fight is on 100 and fuck it.

We need to be in there

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I think they kind of clean helped clean house because I I remember and I think it was the first podcast I did not you lucien, but everybody else on this call just happened to line up with uh rolling into 2024 Where I was gonna be like if you like even think you want to throw a temper tantrum and and leave just like leave now You know, it's it's the beginning of the new year, you know, just do it now I think you and nookie were vibing on that

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Yeah, pack it the fuck up like

[Tommy Lavin]
So I do also think that a lot of people don't realize lucien you brought this up That em does have very limited resources I I would be almost willing to bet that there are plenty of congregations out there that have more people in their their quote-unquote leadership group than em has resources, you know, I mean so Go ahead

[Nooki Sailhatan]
I need to I need to add something real fast Like again, like I I need lucien to be focused on these bills and strategizing there rather than figuring Out how to yep Hold some petty fucking drama that originated on facebook where he is not even on at all Like what are you serious? Like?

This shouldn't be that hard.

[Lucien Greaves]
Well, yeah for lack of anything else to complain about people will often say well Where is the money going? and you know, I would like to i'd like to say now that the Reality is is that we have a lot of things we would like to litigate right now where we're being treated openly poorly by you know regional government groups and things like that and we're Having to prioritize which ones we pursue and which ones we don't which fucking hurts It hurts to not pursue some of this stuff, but the finances just aren't there So when it comes to the idea though of putting the books publicly It's like our opposition will take that into account.

Oh, you're doing things So we don't want them to know where we're at And why do we feel we have a right to keep that from everybody else? Because fuck you you don't pin anything. Yeah, you know Different if you're asking where are your dues going and that kind of thing?

What is your buy-in for i'm doing the church hand if it's not there then fuck off if malcolm and I Or em team overall are going to be getting rich on merchandising Then we've earned it I as far as I can figure but yeah, you know if Until there's a financial burden to being involved with this You know fuck off on that one and i'm not directing that at anybody in particular Especially in the organization, but some of the people who have schismed have gone off in that direction in the most ridiculous way And I don't think it I don't think anybody's due Explanation on that one and it's like if you want to see where the money's going look at what we're doing I look at women's march.

They email me every fucking day talking about how they need money And yet you look at their website. It's like what are you doing?

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Nothing?

[Lucien Greaves]
They emailed about a legal fund and I I even emailed them back and asked what litigation are you looking at? Involving yourselves in what litigation have you been involved in before? And I guarantee you they make orders of magnitude More than us in donations They have a full staff getting paid and they're just getting paid from donations and all those donations seem to be doing Is keeping that machine going?

So we have never thrown out a crowdfunding campaign for anything that we haven't followed through on You know if you want to see the litigation we're doing and you can compare it against other organizations That are clearly drawing a lot more than us I think you'll get a sense of just how on the border we are when it comes from red to black

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, I don't yeah, I I think there's a lot of people that just do not realize how fucking expensive litigation is I mean I I led litigation for a small company where we had to go After one of our executives and I it got into the six figures before I could fucking blink

[Lucien Greaves]
I mean, I was like, holy fucking motherfuckers have had the gall to suggest that we've been profiting from the litigation that we do They have no idea how much of a stunk cost some of the litigation has been And in the cases too where judges just thoughtlessly throw their shit out on the most spurious of grounds possible Like a couple of litigation attempts we've had with reproductive rights where they've said We need to tell them in advance who's going to get pregnant and who's going to be affected by these laws And we need their name and address on records on record before we can go through with these cases That is a violation of justice on in every On every metric you can imagine and it costs us a significant amount of money to get there Look at arkansas.

We've been litigating that one for eight years And who knows I don't even know how much money we've thrown into that And that doesn't include the construction of the bath method shipping and all the bullshit We've had to go through, you know as part of it flying, uh back and forth for depositions Just the amount of litigation that's gone into arkansas that money is is nowhere. You know, that's that's I mean eventually it might pay back but for the most part we we get nothing Nothing back on these things and nobody nobody gets into this kind of litigation as a satanist organization thinking they're going to profit from the litigation if you If you were thinking there's going to be windfall for for us all based on any of this you're wrong We are legitimately fighting for our rights here

[Murphy Fawkes]
and just to piggyback on that like when when the thing happened in boston and we got mistreated in the courts and when the thing happened in indiana and like we We get so blatantly mistreated.

It's illegal and there's more uproar from people within tst over a photo They don't like than us being discriminated against in court. Get your priorities straight, please

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I mean and I know illusion because i'm going to hear it So i'm going to go ahead and say it a bunch of people will say but all the congregation struggle too And we're just trying to do we are and we do and I get it But just to be clear You definitely weren't saying anything about the congregations trying to make funds or that they're not anything or that they don't matter, right?

[Lucien Greaves]
Oh, no, I feel like I was speaking generally about tst including congregations I feel like you know, we've had people from the inside Scare them out and then say well Where is the money going as though they threw in a bunch of money and you know, we know these people absolutely paid nothing for their Uh minimal participation that they had or you know, they they enjoyed a few parties with uh With their local group or whatever else and now they're they're angry They didn't get a piece of the pie or whatever. They think that is or you know, they think that everybody's on salary or whatever, but um, you know, My point is people don't there's no tst stock options fuck God damn it.

[Tommy Lavin]
I I was really working hard to get those. I'm i'm you're just gonna ruin my whole fucking night now You mean i've been donating to the vaffy fund for nothing?

[Nooki Sailhatan]
What do you mean?

[Lucien Greaves]
My fucking buying man I think the outside world doesn't realize also that the congregations aren't these Uh massive for-profit models that are that are pulling it in either, you know I think there are a lot of people who like to paint us overall as an organization that has Different intentions and motivations than the ones that we are clearly saying that we have Because they don't want to confront those they don't want to confront the fact that we are we are what we say we are They even say we're disingenuous by saying that we're a non-theistic religion and that what we really mean Is that we're not a religion No, we fucking mean what we say we're a non-theistic religion if you don't understand that educate your fucking self But don't say that we're the ones being disingenuous if we were lying about who we are. I've said it several times I think it would be far easier for me to claim that we're some kind of theistic satanist group and we could be rid of all of that Uh drama about whether a religion is legitimate for having a higher power or not So i'm not i'm not saying any of that an attack towards any other part of the organization i'm saying that An argument for the benefit of the organization in my mind.

[Lilin Lavin]
I I was clear, but I know i'm gonna hear it So I was just trying to cut it off But uh, you know, I appreciate that Right Yeah, I get sick of hearing this shit too. It's like well, but they're doing this down there Yeah, we're all fucking making money off the couple t-shirts We're able to sling so that we could get together as a group and keep things going one more day and keep one more cat Shelter happy and go pet a couple more dogs and go out as a group and do things go bowling Yeah, I mean we're all struggling to do the basic things because we are a deeply held religious belief group That's actually enjoying each other's company and talking about what we believe in and actually there is a community And we're we're just all vibing and trying to thrive off what we can do and that goes from the bottom up We're really literally just out there in the community trying to provide a place for people to belong

[Lucien Greaves]
We were really in a bad way last year Because we had rolled out the abortion clinic in new mexico and that was a tremendous cost and we Justified that to ourselves by thinking there was no way this wasn't going to be Big enough news that it would uh, even out it, you know, we would make it up You know, there would be enough exposure from just having rolled out an abortion clinic that had the potential of being protected under reproductive or religious rights laws We thought that was such a powerful thing to do That it would you know that we could take that gamble and put that much money into it to have it staffed and everything else to uh To justify it and to our horror there wasn't a whole lot of coverage on it I mean we it's just everything's a gamble now and everything threatens like any any big purchases like that threatened to collapse us to be Honest, it really does like it was it was a desperate state of affairs for For for a while there and we really needed to scale back on a lot of things because we rolled out The abortion clinic and then we thought you know Potentially that we just weren't going to get the kind of news coverage We used to get people were used to what we're doing and they weren't paying attention anymore And that you know, this was kind of drying up and you know The uh, indiana state capitol thing was also we felt indicative of that you know, we felt that a satanic band playing at the state capitol was sure to draw all kinds of Attention and outrage and that and it didn't and and you know, the show turned out fine and everything but there wasn't there wasn't that much in the way of uh, News generated by it and then what happens, you know Iowa does something the perfluous like put up a holiday display. I mean, yeah, I mean i'm i'm not saying that that's nothing That's that's a big thing.

It's great that the congregation does it I know that's putting yourself out there and that's that's that's dangerous but overall when it comes to news, it didn't seem like that would be a thing to capture everybody's, uh, Paranoid imaginations and yet yet it did And then all of a sudden de santis gets on the news while we're recording our second album and says his bullshit things And i'm on cnn challenging him to a debate and everything and then the news has kind of uh, uh kept Kept rolling from there. So we just don't know we don't I mean there's there's nothing secure about this life It's a high stress Environment to be in and that was what I was about to say

[Tommy Lavin]
When when you talked about iowa right before you went into that I was going to say you probably got more exposure because I remember seeing more news stories about um, iowa Then I did about the abortion clinic or satanic planning playing, you know I I saw it but nothing like what happened in iowa and and so it was like wow, okay That's the thing.

[Lucien Greaves]
Oh, no. Yeah satanic planet there was like three articles I can think of about it in uh, The the abortion clinic there were some nice long form pieces eventually there was a cosmopolitan piece and there was uh, something that new york times was going to do and then they oddly kind of buried us and uh, it was it new york times was going to do a A full piece on us and it ended up getting cut a lot shorter And then it was like they only wanted to present us like halfway into the article And you know, it was nice to have that piece But it also kind of it was kind of shitty because we kind of gave them an exclusive and ended up waiting months for it but to be honest, there wasn't really anything else in the way of uh, Media reaching out for coverage either and I think some of the uh, and this is why i've been turned off to So many other self-proclaimed activist groups and you know, uh left identifying organizations and individuals just because You know, they are so concerned with optics that I think they'll try to ignore us because they think it's a bad look I mean look at a coward like rachel maddow. She Covers reproductive rights all the time and has somehow managed to never mention us once and even if you don't agree with our approach You'd think you would at least acknowledge that we're doing it that it's something so, you know It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not If you're journalists talking about these issues, you can you know give some kind of indication of who the players are, you know But we're seeing an environment where that's just not the case.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, I think everyone's overwhelmed and there's something happening It feels like every damn day There's a horse in the hospital Yes Maybe i'll say that You okay.

[Tommy Lavin]
You've got uh, yeah, you gotta google or youtube a horse in the hospital and it perfectly describes from 2016 On I am shouldn't you know, i've even heard them reference it on on the news before on like some of the news talk shows we watch um, because it is just so Because it's a horse Is that what it's called Well, I was like literally there's a horse in the hospital. There's a horse in the hospital. It's never happened before.

Um, Let you put two and two together on that one, but go listen to the bit.

[Nooki Sailhatan]
It's a really really good We can come back together and have a conversation just on that and whatever the hell horse in the hospital Yeah, the horse in the hospital episode i'm sitting here like that's gotta be a texas thing because I don't oh my god.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't understand No, it was a comedian that was trying to put together what the entirety of you know The whole 2016 and on debacle and then he surmised it as there's a horse in the hospital. Yeah And I thought it was pretty Yeah, I mean imagine what hilarity and chaos and horror would ensue with a horse in a hospital so it It kind of goes from that.

[Nooki Sailhatan]
Can you imagine? Yeah, can you imagine you're clocking in and there's a fucking horse? In the horse in the hospital that you work at that.

Oh my god.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean it might be better than the average

[Lucien Greaves]
We do have uh, some some situations where they are clearly factoring in our inability to pay the pay the bills In their in their approach to us and we're seeing that with uh, freedom information act requests now they're they're asking for these high price tags to do these data data searches and we're trying to Figure out whether we have it within our budget to fight A battle in court as to whether that's appropriate or not that their analysis as to what those costs are And that's why you know, that's that's why it's to our advantage to play it the way we play it.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah I mean we've seen just like within the past month how many bills pop up? So it's not like you can plan like at the beginning of the year You can't plan how much you need to spend on all this stuff or how much you need Because you don't know what's gonna happen.

[Lucien Greaves]
Yeah exactly just to be honest, we don't have we don't have like next year's budget in the you know in our coffers at this point like Insofar as organizations go. I think we're probably a lot more month to month than other ones you know, we we've always kind of uh in just scraping by and if we've gotten more in We've invested it back into the projects that we're doing or the litigation that we're doing we're going to take on something else And that's just because we've got so much we can do And honestly, we are we're limited in what we do only by though, you know that kind of resources like the kind of you know, the the kind of uh, Manpower, you know to put into it like I mean having volunteers working on things Things is one thing but we You know if we had unlimited resources monetarily We would be going through unlimited Right now as well

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, and I think people in the satanic community need to think about that You know if you want to be able to fight back these very pressing things that are continuing to roll out more and more all the time Then it's time to get involved and you know kind of back that up and support it because it's it's not going to stop Happening and they're going to keep coming after us

[Lucien Greaves]
but I mean I think that and we've got to get to a point too where we do lobbying and That's nothing but expensive and that's the only thing in some cases that stops us now but if we got to the point where we were a financial powerhouse like Yeah, the sad fact is but then we really start getting results too, right?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, I guess it's figuring out what that looks like you have that big beautiful website So I know you can put out some at least decent things to let people know on occasion What's the big thing happening and then disseminate that what you can do action call? So that's one awesome thing you guys have at your disposal That is an easy access for all to kind of have and then we have other groups where we meet monthly and talk about What we're doing So that's another way to get out to the congregation heads who really need to tune in And listen and share with their congregation so that they can engage at whatever level they're comfortable To engage at to be involved as much as they're able and want. Yeah, I know we've gotten

[Tommy Lavin]
Good

[Lilin Lavin]
No, no

[Murphy Fawkes]
I was gonna say it's such a ripple effect too because the more we talk about this the more publicity it gets the more people it reaches the more the broader net that we can cast to bring in the people that just care about the Constitution who care about religious liberty and are willing to support these causes for that reason that'll That'll hopefully deter the christian nationalists from putting forward these ridiculous bills But right now when no one cares, they're gonna keep doing it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah yeah, and I I know we've got this thing like

[Lucien Greaves]
the volunteer work if you have a lot of volunteers working that's That's that can be better than people donating money Because then I mean that they're volunteering the work that you need to have done, you know Like you can you can try to find pro bono lawyers You can get people doing research because they believe in the cause that kind of thing Then it doesn't really matter that we're scraping by we can keep going, you know No matter how bad we were scraping by we can keep going into action We can at least keep things up on the public front, you know Like unfortunately now we've been in a situation where we've had to pay lawyers Like I mean matt can't work for free I'm sure he would do pro bono work if he could and and support himself the same way but he needs to make a living too and our offers of pro bono support have been Uh, you know not as we haven't had as much of that as we anticipated we might when we had started this

[Murphy Fawkes]
Like so when we get it, we piss it away because we're precious little babies

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah, but you know, I think we have good things and I think the conversation here is a good start And knowing that we have volunteers in each of these states in each of these countries that are wanting to be involved That's a big start too.

So I mean you don't want to have your name involved You want to stay on the sidelines great? You can do research you can do outreach you could do You know social media posting you could do like as you get more up in the comfort level You can go on tiktok and you can talk about each little thing in small bite-sized pieces There's things all of us can do with what we have.

[Murphy Fawkes]
Yeah, depending on how public you want to be Even like organizing fundraisers like that's that's like so that is like day one type of shit that we should all be doing Yeah, and it's something that Anuki and I are gonna work on is uh, like a news update show that we do However often about what's going on for tsttv and that's something that other people should know about too.

[Lucien Greaves]
They can Contribute to tsttv if they want to yeah content is no small thing Like I said when people see that we we are bigger than me Yeah, there are a lot of us that this is like that kind of That kind of power and having this type of group. I like I said, it's not a numbers game But like when you have a lot of people active that's really meaningful and other people see that too and then they they realize you know, and they They should see different faces too like people creating content is is just a great thing, you know podcasts like this, you know Just different shit you post online, you know, even if you're writing blog pieces or whatever letters to the editor especially when when these issues are are about in the in local press and People are sounding off their point of view. I look scary to people Uh, at least some people I found out from looking at comments after like my box appearances or whatever but uh, you know a lot of us might look more approachable to people and you know, just i'm i'm very much against trying to placate and appeal to people In such a way where we try to display for them that we're just like you kind of thing I don't I don't advocate for that, but I think uh, there is enough of a diversity Within tst that if people started seeing that diversity in tst they would see like well there's people who look like murphy and tst too and not necessarily, uh, you know a clouded eye james bond villain as Somebody remarked after one of my tucker carlson appearances

[Tommy Lavin]
well, I mean that that that the Were everybody else was the whole thing behind what we named the podcast, you know satanist next door was Named that because we are just regular average people.

[Lilin Lavin]
We could be living in your neighborhood You wouldn't even know it unless we walked up and told you or happened to have a big outdoor event Shout hail satan in the backyard Then goes real quiet we did do one of those It was fun, did I hear that right? Oh shit I did So

[Lucien Greaves]
i'm hoping all the uh All those all the schisming type that left during the last schism and that we have people on board now who are yeah, just looking to find a way to get involved and are looking forward to this kind of communication from Em to the rest of congregations and ministry and i'm i'm assuming that in general people will be happy to hear that that's That's what we're talking about and that's the direction we're going.

Yeah

[Murphy Fawkes]
And like you guys have your podcast where you do your own thing to be for people to add content and there's just so many Opportunities for people to get involved and hopefully now they'll know that they can and they'll want to and this can be better

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, awesome With that I think we can wrap the podcast if y'all want to hang on and chat some more that's cool But I think we can wrap with that.

Yeah, you know the message is get out there make some fucking noise, you know Don't be afraid if you disagree with anything.

[Lilin Lavin]
We said let's talk about it Yeah, let us know, you know where all of us are on different various social media email Lucien. I'm sure you know the way Um and just let us all know what's going on and let's get the conversation moving.

[Tommy Lavin]
Awesome Well, wherever you are. Good day. Good evening.

Good morning. Hail satan. Hail satan