Ep.34: Satanism in the Crosshairs - Legislating Belief

# Satanists Nextdoor
# Ep.34: Satanism in the Crosshairs - Legislating Belief

[Lilin Lavin]
Welcome, dear listeners, to Satanist Next Door. We're your hosts, Lilin Lavin and Tommy Lavin. Whether you're an open-minded, curious onlooker or a fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives, leaving no pentagram unturned.

We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, and reveal the humanity that unites us all. So grab your favorite chalice and join us on this captivating journey. Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, one captivating episode at a time.

[Tommy Lavin]
Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. Holy shit, what is a week to change? So last week, we were speaking a bit about the Arizona Senate Bill 1279, which is the RESPECT Act, short for Reject Escalating Satanism by Preserving Essential Care Traditions.

Well, within a week, that act went to committee, was voted on and passed, and drumroll, on top of that now, we have the Iowa Bill SF-2210, which basically takes the Arizona Bill and then adds even more language to it. So we've got two of these. I've heard rumblings that Idaho's working on their own.

So I would expect many more of these coming out. And I look at this and I see the somewhat lack of response from the community out there. I've kind of been looking to see the reaction.

And I know Lucien and Stu and Mike, they did a live feed on this, kind of covering it, which they were originally going to talk about another subject, but these two came up and these two are, I think, way more important than the original subject matter that they were going to talk about. I think they had a lot of good points. But the part that I look at is, you look at these two bills, more possibly on the way, and I kind of look at the lack of reaction, whether it be within the satanic community or outside of it.

But for this comment, I'm going to talk specifically about the satanic community. And the part that bothers me is that, if Lucien farts wrong, it's like shit blows up and everybody's all over the place. These bills directly impact everyone.

I mean, this is a blatant attack on our religion, our way of life.

[Lilin Lavin]
Constitutionality itself, the Establishment Clause, which protects way more than just us being able, as Satanists, to be able to express and have a religious form and to have that respect and difference that is afforded to all individuals by this protection. But the very idea that the constitutionality itself would essentially be erased by these bills, because if they were to be adopted and accepted, and then move their way through that, you're saying the Establishment Clause is essentially dead. No, but yeah, it's gone.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, so it's like, and I've seen so many people just say, well, this is unconstitutional. Okay. Well, we've seen lately a lot of unconstitutional shit being moved through.

And even if it is unconstitutional, let's say this dies at SCOTUS or somewhere like that. The fact that they're running them through, the fact that it went through Arizona and passed in committee with only one senator saying, what the hell are we doing? This is a direct attack on the constitution.

And the others basically just dog whistling and clearly giving their Christian agenda in committee was extremely concerning, to say the least. And I was somewhat floored by the amount of silence around it, I guess.

[Lilin Lavin]
I did see a few people on some social platforms making some, I mean, people that pay attention to these things, obviously, were there front and center. The same individuals I expected to see, I did see.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, yeah. No, like I said, there's some individuals talking about it. But like I said, I see a whole lot more noise in the satanic community when something dumb happens.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I think beyond just this, with respect to the Iowa bill is just a recognition that they did say very specifically, that while they don't have a preference to a specific religion, they do in fact have a preference for a specific religion, no matter how they wanted to dress that up. It was very blatantly stated that the historical evidence showing that the values found in the Judeo Christian faith are fundamental to the foundations and freedom of the United States of America. Now this is listed within the bill language.

And so I mean, just because this is so important, I think I may bore people to just kind of go over the fact of what it says. I'm not going to go into the definitions. If you want to look at this specific and that they call out prior, you're welcome to go ahead and look at it.

But it states that the General Assembly finds that the Constitution of the state of Iowa acknowledges the supreme being to whom we owe gratitude for blessings received and upon who we who we depend for future blessings. That right there, massively problematic for me. But let's continue.

The General Assembly finds that there is a wide range of differing views among its citizens regarding which establishment of religion or religious repert religions represent the one supreme being upon which we depend. Though a long line of historical evidence exists showing that the values found in the Judeo Christian faith are fundamental to the foundations and freedoms of the United States of America, the state of Iowa, and according to the long established history, heritage, and tradition of the United States does not grant favored status to any establishment of religion as the official religion of the state of Iowa. Now, they go on to say that, and then in the section following, I challenge you to tell me that they have followed through with that train of thought. The General Assembly finds that good and evil exist.

Subjective, subjective, I have a problem with that. The supreme being, again, there's one supreme being based on the language here. The supreme being upon whom we depend for continued blessings personifies that which is good.

If you've read the Bible, I definitely challenge you to really question that. Evil is personified in the creature known as Satan. It is the duty of the government to play an appropriate role in protecting the inhabitant residents of Iowa from evil while encouraging and facilitating good.

Now, right there, if you look at what they're stating is that subjectively, they are saying that good and evil are defined through the Bible, and that which is seen as an act of God is good, and that which is seen as an act of Satan is in and of itself defined as evil.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, and it is the government's position to protect its citizens.

[Lilin Lavin]
Melissa Avery-Weir Well, what I didn't see a lot of people talking about, and what I read right there myself was that they feel that the government's role in that sentence right there is to uphold the will and law of God through the government. I haven't seen a lot of people discussing that particular point. But again, I digress.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock Yeah, I mean, they even use God in here, capital G.

[Lilin Lavin]
Melissa Avery-Weir Yeah, it is legally and constitutionally inconsistent to afford Satan, who is universally understood to be an enemy of God, religious expression on public property by a state government that depends upon God, depends upon God, for continued blessings. Such a legal view violates our state constitution and offends the God upon whom we depend and undermines our well-being. So here again, they've definitively linked the well-being of the government and the state and the individuals within the state to dependence and observance of God.

Capital G.

[Tommy Lavin]
Darrell Bock The part that I find really interesting about this is in Arizona in committee when – what the fuck's his name – when Senator Hoffman, Senator Jake Hoffman went on his bit of a tyrannical rant at the end, he – and multiple times in the committee, he referred to this exact same language that Satan is universally understood to be the enemy of God. Now, this is the exact same language that's in the Iowa – Melissa Avery-Weir The verbiage was exact, yeah. Yeah, so the verbiage – that verbiage wasn't in the Arizona bill, but it was used by Hoffman in committee.

So that tells me, if I just use a couple brain cells and synapses up there moving along, that whoever wrote the Arizona bill likely got together with the people writing the Iowa bill. If it's not the same person, it could be who knows. Or a group of people.

Or a group of people, because the language used to define Satan is exactly the same in there, and it's so specific. It's not like Satan's the bad guy. It's the whole – is universally understood to – and in the committee, people tried to push back on that and say no.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I mean, there were people sitting there speaking on behalf of themselves and part of a community that obviously sees it differently. And to be a universal truth, it would be something accepted and understood by people universally.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, and he even used everybody in his statement.

[Lilin Lavin]
Incredibly dismissive, yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
So that tells me he, you know, he doesn't see Satanist as part of the community, because if you're going to make a statement and argue everybody – and he highlighted, like, emphasized everybody. He argued the word everybody a few times. When you have people there saying no, we don't see it the same.

Well, obviously that means he doesn't recognize them as people.

[Lilin Lavin]
Even if it's just subconscious, definitely that was implied. Right. And then it finishes with the General Assembly finds that all people have freedom of conscience.

The state of Iowa does not recommend Satanic practice in any form. However, the state of Iowa acknowledges that individuals are free under the Constitution of the state of Iowa to practice Satanic worship in their private thoughts and on their private property in ways that do not violate any Iowa law or harm or infringe on others. Yeah, so in other words, shut up and get in – Well, and the infringe on others, as many of you know, here in the great state of Texas, we have a flag out front of our home, on our property, within the bounds of our domain.

And offending right there, that is an offense. And one of the reasons why I love the tenants is the right to offend is, you know, given to all and then to willfully and unjustly encroach upon that is to, you know, give up your own. So when the state, I mean, if you're a Satanist, right, comes in and says that, you know, you've offended me and now you have to suffer the consequences, you know, who then holds the state responsible for the offense that it has so clearly given to so many.

And they're protected through the legal system, through the legislative system, to do these things, to offend people, to act as Hoffman did, as an unquestionable bullying. Yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, and I guess the issue that I have, because I've talked to a few people, I've even had some disagreements, even with some other Satanists online about this, is that, you know, it's like, well, it doesn't really apply to me or no, it's, it's, you know, it's unconstitutional. Okay.

Well, yes, it does apply to you. And let's just be really clear here, the term Satanist that they're using here. One of the reasons why Satanists call themselves Satanist is because the Christian nationalists, Christian evangelicals, you know, throughout history, if you do not comply with, with their point of view, you know, if you're, if you're different, you're a Satanist.

I mean, they label the Pope as Satanist, satanic, you know, because according to Christians, specifically evangelicals and all those in the ones writing these bills is you are supposed to have a personal relationship with God. So the Catholic church by idolized, you know, by worshiping false idols and by having a priest there and bishops and Cardinals and all of that sort of shit up all the way up to the Pope, they're Satanic.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, I mean, yeah, St. Francis, the Virgin Mary, any of these things would be idols, but yeah. So, I mean, but then it goes into the explanation, right? And this is where things get incredibly, for me concerning, regardless of how far this goes, the fact that we've got now not one, but two of these out there, the explanation goes into the inclusion of this explanation does not constitute agreement with the explanation substance set by any members of the general assembly.

This bill relates to satanic displays or satanic worship on property of the state and its political subdivisions. The bill provides that the state or any political subdivision of the state shall not recognize organizations or individuals who refer to Satan as a deity, worship Satan, or who reference Satan or Satanism as part of the organization or individual's religious practice as an establishment of religion. So right there, they throw out the fact that we have religious beliefs, religious practices, religious foundational pieces that go with our experience as human beings.

They throw out the fact that we have a community, that we have ritual, we do weddings, funerals, and many things in between, just as any other religion does. We have ministers, we work together to minister to our community, with our community. We are just as legitimate as anything else.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And I mean, so the Iowa one kind of goes into, and the Arizona one says this in so many words as well, display symbols or the practice of satanic worship shall not be allowed on public property, in public schools, on property owned by public schools, or any property owned by the state or its political subdivisions.

[Lilin Lavin]
And so what do we feel like that's a reaction to?

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, yeah, I mean, it's a direct reaction to the Iowa display in, or the display in Iowa, which again, Hoffman in his rant at the end, he specifically mentioned that he can't believe in a world that he lives in, that somebody would be going to jail for a hate crime for destroying a satanic display. Well, wake up, that's called a hate crime. Just because you don't like it, you don't like the religion, doesn't mean you can just go destroy it.

It has the exact same rights. And sure, you can argue, well, religious display shouldn't be in Capitol buildings and such. Sure, fine.

But they had Christian displays there too. So the satanic temple doesn't go in for, it's not like they say, hey, we're going to go put our thing here and then the Christians follow. It's generally what happens is the Christians and them start putting up displays and we say, hey, we have the same rights.

We have the same legal rights under the constitution. So we're going to put a display up too. And the thing that satanists did when they put their display up is they left the Christians displays alone because it's not theirs.

It's not their place to destroy it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Not even their desire to destroy it.

[Tommy Lavin]
Not their desire, anything like that. Christians are free to worship. They're free to wear their shirts.

They're free to wear their jewelry. They're free to do all of that sort of shit. What they're not okay to do is to tell everybody else in America, you have to worship the same way we do.

You have to follow our religion. You have to, and anything outside of that is illegal. And that's basically what this saying, because if you read the language, some people look at it and say, well, I would never put a satanic display.

Okay, great. Do you have a satanic tattoo? Do you wear a satanic shirt?

Because the way this language reads, if you are wearing a satanic shirt or something, they deem satanic. I know in the call with Lucian, now I remember where I was going before we started this on the call with Lucian, they were talking about, well, if people have shirts and stuff like that, they can just say, well, it's Wiccan or it's pagan or something like that and get out of it. But I don't think that's the case because I think if bills like this made it all the way to the point that they passed, some governor signed off on it and a police officer actually decided to start enforcing this, basically they're putting religious police in.

At that point, it wouldn't matter if you're Wiccan, pagan, anything like that. Any symbol that they see as non-Christian is satanic.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, they've made that very clear. I mean, and you see that repeated throughout United States where there's been a cult related things and then they say, oh, this is an act of satanism, it's demonic. And so regardless of how they want to define it, we know that's exactly where to go.

But it goes into say any act of satanic practice or worship that involves the ending of a life or the shedding of blood, whether the sacrifice be animal or human is prohibited. I personally have no problem with that language, right? Because as a religion, well, I know where you're going, but hold on.

As a religious practice, as a belief, we find it offensive, the idea of having to be so weak that you would take a life that you would ignore the bodily autonomy of anything animal, insect, human being, whatever. I find it abhorrent that people would try to just falsely associate it when there are religions out there that believe that the death of something, the blood, the sacrifice, human sacrifice was appropriate. We are not that religion.

However, and the point where you are going is what they're intentionally doing with this language is to go after things like our abortion, the abortion clinics, the virtual abortion clinics that we have available to people and trying to say that that is a satanic sacrifice. When in fact, the way that the satanic temple operates with that is we're not providing a ritual for the act itself. It's for the individual that is going to stand behind their right of bodily autonomy and their personal sovereignty, decide whether or not they want to be and continue a pregnancy.

[Tommy Lavin]
See, I look at it even further than that. I think what they're putting in here, and I know you're more of an optimist. I'm more of a pessimist.

It depends on the day. Yeah. And a lot of things, but well, I'm almost always a pessimist.

But, you know, a lot of times when I read these things and I look at them and I say, this is what's going to happen. This is, you know, unfortunately, over the years, as this has been happening, you know, a lot of a lot of what I thought would be going down is starting to happen. I think they're going after abortion, period, not just the abortion ritual.

[Lilin Lavin]
Oh, no, I do agree. But I feel like what they're doing at this point in this juncture is trying to attack like Samuel Lito's mom, satanic abortion clinic that we have. And again, to be very, very clear, the abortion, you know, ritual that we have associated with that is for the individual, the one making the decision to help them to affirm, be affirmed in their decision.

So we're not encouraging people, we're not telling people, we're not, we're providing through our religious beliefs, the right to support an individual who's made a decision for their body, because again, bodily autonomy is incredibly important. And when a person makes a decision, regardless of whether it's the right decision, it's not an easy decision, it's not an easy thing, you know that it's what you need, or whatever it is your motivation is, whether it's because there was an abnormality with a fetus, or you're not in a position to have another child, or it's just not something that you personally want to do, for whatever reason, you have the right to say, No, I'm not in a position for this, I do not want to, you know, do the adoption thing that is always pushed down your throat is the option because it causes body harm. Yeah, and it's emotionally challenged.

There's so many things associated with to to force someone to just go through a pregnancy, because it's what would soothe others conscience is just abhorrent to me. And because a person has the option to just say, I don't want my body to be used as a life support system for something that is gestating to become an individual, because you find it to be the right thing to do. I don't have to put myself through that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And, and again, you know, when I first read that language, I read it, and I was like, Oh, this is more that satanic panic bullshit where they're putting human sacrifice in there. But then when I read through the bill a second time, I was like, I see what they're doing here.

I see where they're going after.

[Lilin Lavin]
Well, and then the last thing that it says, it says the bill provides that a violation of the bill is a criminal offense subject to prosecution under the laws of the state and the bill makes legislative findings concerning the religion and the practice of Satanism. So right there in the fight makes a finding legislative finding concerning the religion and the practice of Satanism. So here we have a legislative body going against the separations going extent the establishment, just stating very obviously that they find this religion, this practice objectionable.

And so based on their reasoning from their religious perspective, because that's what they're basing it on, right? It's not like psychological findings, it's not historical findings, they very clearly stated that it will offend the one God with who for whom they depend on the blessings that they receive. They don't want that offense.

And so they want to say that this is not allowed. What else does that open the door to? And I think Lucian when he was speaking on the topic had mentioned, you know, Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, not Hinduism, but Jainism, Buddhism, and there was quite a few of them that are non theistic, right?

Where you have Confucianism and things like that, that already exist in Jainism, as an example, is probably one of the longest running, you know, in existence. So, you know, when you look at that, that directly says, it's opening the door to go after other non theistic beliefs. And there are quite many more than I'm probably even aware of.

Exactly.

[Tommy Lavin]
It's an attempt at a theocratic coup, basically, when you look at the bills, right? And the fact that they're coming, you know, when we talked about this last week, there was one bill, it was in Arizona, and it hadn't hit committee yet. So there was a lot of, well, I think this might happen, this could happen.

I remember saying last week that I would expect more bills to come. I didn't expect them to happen within the fucking week. But you know, holy shit.

[Lilin Lavin]
It does show you that it's much like we discussed, when you look at how they approached the removal of Roe v. Wade, and how they dismantled it piece by piece by chipping away at the pieces of it, the components were slowly removed. And then they just took it at that, finally, they'd removed enough of the defense that they just went in for the kill.

And I feel like that's the same thing we're watching. And Satanism, historically, has been the way that they've attacked people that have been othered by a community and not just actual Satanist. And this is where I start to get concerned.

And what I'm not hearing a lot of people talk about, there are people today, there are people today that are still trying to deal with being labeled as a Satanist going to jail. And I'm not like a few months or a few weeks, four years that were not Satanist, that were just out living their lives. And because of the satanic panic, they were jailed.

[Tommy Lavin]
You're talking back in the 80s and 90s.

[Lilin Lavin]
The McMartins, the Kellers, there's so many individuals, the San Antonio four, these people were deemed satanic. They used unscrupulous psychological practices to do the implanted memory thing. There's all this stuff going because the religion at the time found that to be a good foothold to talk about the spiritual warfare and how it was affecting our children.

And this was a way for them to continue to fundraise. It was a way for them to show true and real present danger. They used this as a way to instill fear and to go after people that were deemed to not be one of them.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so if you think about it, the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s, they had to sort of trump up charges, no pun intended. They had to come up with these implanted memories that basically psychologists worked with these children for months and months and months in order to implant these memories into them.

And then they would trump up a molestation charge or something like that. And some of them were wicked crazy. I mean, they were like, yeah, they put us on an airplane and they flew us to other states.

And all this happened within the tune of a couple hours when the parents dropped them off for preschool and then picked them back up. I mean, it was outlandish sort of shit. And yet the jury still bought it and put these people in jail.

This time around, they don't have to do any of that shit. They are writing laws that basically say, if we say you're a Satanist, you go to jail. If you had a bumper sticker on your car, a TST bumper sticker, a pentagram bumper sticker, a white zombie bumper sticker on your car and you went to pick up your kid at school, you are on public school property, government property, government property with a symbol that says very specifically in here symbol.

So it's not just, you know.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And symbology is a very tricky thing to attack because it is so open ended and they do so often lob individuals that are within the pagan community and other, I mean, even non-religious communities that just enjoy certain symbolism could be deemed Satanic by this law.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so they don't even have to make up a charge. It falls under here.

And even in the bill, it says if you break this, it was like two and three. Two was the symbology and displays and stuff like that. Number three was the shedding of blood.

If you break those, they're criminal offenses.

[Lilin Lavin]
It says right in the bill that it's a criminal offense. So I have to wonder to myself though, because I see this often going on and this is again, I'm not, I'm not seeing that I'm, I'm looking at it and kind of wandering to myself as I wondered about many things. When you talk about two and three symbology, there are many people within the community that have, as was mentioned, Satanic tattoos that were Satanic pair, like what would be considered paraphernalia that own things.

What about people that have had abortions that are in fact Satanist? Could they not then imply that it was in fact, whether or not they want to admit it, this ritualistic sacrifice practice that they're trying to imply are connected?

[Tommy Lavin]
I absolutely think so. And I watch what is so, so this goes into so many different ways that they're trying to attack our constitution and trying to move us into a theocracy because I watched them doing this with the trans member. What's his fuck here in Texas?

The, the, the criminal, um, um, DA, um, Oh, you're talking about Paxton. Yeah. So Paxton has already made two requests.

One to Washington state, I think it was Seattle. And then another one to another state. I forgot it off the top of my head.

It was a Southern state. We want to see the records of, and we want to see the medical records of anybody who's been transitioned in that state.

[Lilin Lavin]
I don't know if it was just half transition, but I believe it was trans care.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. Right. And so right there, one that breaks HIPAA, um, but two, I could see them doing the exact same thing with abortion and saying, Hey, we want to see all the records of anybody who's got an abortion.

Now that means even if you're not currently this could, how far back could they go? You know, he, he didn't give a timeline on it. You know, can they go 10 years back?

You can wind up having people that vote for this stuff because they've, they've switched their views on abortion, but 10 years ago, they had an abortion and all of a sudden now they're locked up in jail because they pulled records and found, Oh, you had an abortion. That's satanic right here, says it in this law. So I mean, I understand.

I was listening to, uh, you know, the live stream with Lucian and the lawyers and Matt and Stu. Yeah. And I know Stu was being very optimistic.

I, you know, I don't think a police officer would do this. I don't think this, I don't think that. And I understand where he's coming from, but we live in the South and we've seen this sort of shit that they try and do pull here at times.

And I could see if something like this passed in a Southern state and the governor signed off on it and I could see a police officer arresting somebody, you know, yeah, they're not going to arrest all a hundred people that walk out of a metal show. You know, that's not what they're going to do, but I could see them targeting a person and saying, just wait, they'll come out. They'll, they'll have a, uh, you know, a pentagram shirt on at some point in time, or they've got a bumper sticker.

They target that person for whatever reason they arrest them. I could see a police officer arresting them. I could see a judge absolutely saying, well, this is law.

This is what it says in the law. This is what you did. Yep.

I'm convicting you.

[Lilin Lavin]
And boom. I mean, well, and I think they did a good job kind of going over the potential scenarios where, you know, that could be, I feel like in Texas, even, even with all of the extremism that you see here, there are still people that do truly uphold what the constitution stands for. There's people that have been in the military that have fought and put their lives on the line that do believe whether or not they agree with us as Satanists, that we do in fact have a right to exist and would have a hard time upholding that.

I do think that there are a lot of people that would not just blindly go along with it. However, knowing what I know about individuals in Texas, there would be, there would be areas. Um, and again, for some of us, we travel between different large cities.

Yep. There's a lot of country between Houston and Dallas. And many of us, myself included, we have, um, stickers.

I have stickers that represent the different congregations within our state on my car, um, on a, on a bachelor. I will not be taking those off ever. Um, unless my car was to go to someone else that I don't want to have to deal with that.

And, um, yeah, I'll always have these things on my car. I don't necessarily usually do that, but I feel very strongly about this. And I'm very proud of what we have here as congregations.

Each of the groups involved with that are doing something I feel is positive. And I'm always going to defend that. Um, but you run the risk when you are doing things because we travel between, you know, us and Dallas and us and San Antonio, or, you know, if we visit people in other States or do other trips, maybe we are in the Grand Canyon.

Maybe you decide for some crazy reason to head out to Florida, you know, to run the risk between here and there, uh, that you'll be stopped. And States like Oklahoma are a little scary. States like Louisiana get a Mississippi, Arkansas.

I mean, so again on the list, even if it's not accepted in those States yet, if those laws don't exist, but let's just say it goes through in a state like Iowa, this gives people that have this. Um, and there's a great study out there and I'm not going to go into all that where if you give people authority in certain situations, the authority then goes to their head and they act in ways that they otherwise would not. Oh yeah.

[Tommy Lavin]
They will absolutely abuse this. There's, there's no doubt in my mind, this, this will be abused if it goes through and sure.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then they'll lean in on this as the, the reason why they felt it was appropriate and they were only looking out for the best interest of their community.

[Tommy Lavin]
And sure it will be appealed and it will go to the Supreme court, but that can take years and years.

[Lilin Lavin]
Like I said, the individuals like the McMartins, which is a horribly, you know, poignant example of the fact that these individuals, they ran a daycare, the, the crimes of which they were accused were obviously, they were false. The, the things were thrown out and yet their lives were ruined. Their career was upended and destroyed their, their name destroyed their in over and over again.

Um, these people lost everything. They lost everything. There's no getting that back.

[Tommy Lavin]
No, there, there was a guy in Texas who just, uh, I want to say it was like a year ago, just got his name cleared and he, he was put in jail. His kids were taken away. They went to foster care, all of that sort of shit.

You, you can't take that time. So the fucking excuse of, Oh, well it'll eventually get overturned. That's bullshit because how many lives are destroyed in the meantime, you can't get fucking time back.

[Lilin Lavin]
You're talking about Melvin Quinney and Melvin, um, his, his son at the time, they had the same sort of thing. There was things going on and they had convinced him that these things that happened and to the point that, I mean, it's not that hard to implant false memory.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, and his ex wife was in on it and she, she, she has a legitimate mental illness that, that they sort of brushed over. You know, she could not even care for the kids.

[Lilin Lavin]
But the son was caught in the middle of this just horrific situation and a child should never be pitted against their parents because they have a natural desire to just love them both. Um, and for whatever reason, they just ended up manipulating him.

[Tommy Lavin]
He's nine.

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, it's not hard to manipulate him to, to kind of state these very egregious claims against the father. And they do have a relationship at this point. They're working to build back the life that was taken from them.

And I commend them greatly for that. Yeah. But that's what 20 years and he still has to register as far as I know, as a sex offender, I think, I think he got rid of that.

But it was for like 20 some odd years.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Yeah. He finally got his record, but, but you can't get time back.

And that's what, I mean, when I see this sort of jail from 91 to 99. Yeah. When I see this sort of, Oh, it'll, it'll eventually get overturned sort of, you know, the, the sort of attitude that I see from other Satanists, I'm like, what in the fuck?

[Lilin Lavin]
I mean, seriously, if I, like I said, Lucian farts wrong and people blow their fucking tops, all of us, ourselves included, we don't always make the best statement sometimes. I mean, we all slip up from one, one time to another, just maybe just trying to make a point and you just kind of don't say it the best way possible. And Lucian's no different from the rest of us where he just makes sometimes comments or does things that people find whatever flaw in.

And that's fine. It's fine to feel that way and to do that. But if you have the audacity to hold people up on this pedestal, and I don't care who it is and say, well, they did this thing and I'm so abhorred, like, I'm so angry.

I'm beside myself. I can't even stand it. And then you see these laws coming out and you just sit quietly, like, it's not that big of a deal.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And it'll get overturned. Oh, it's not that big of a deal.

[Lilin Lavin]
Like I'm going to go ahead and call him.

[Tommy Lavin]
Constitutional, you know, and then for everybody else, that's not a Satanist. I mean, I keep trying to make this point online and I just, I'm not going to shut up about it online. It doesn't matter if you're not a Satanist, unless you are an extreme Christian nationalist and will remain a extreme Christian nationalist.

So in other words, as they get more and more radical, you just, you will stay with them and become more and more radical. If at some point you veer off, you can technically be considered a Satanist and they will, you ask them, you listen to their sermons. They up from, you know, the pastors all the time are calling this demonic and that demonic and this satanic and it has nothing to do with Satanist.

[Lilin Lavin]
Were you with your partner before you were married? Well, that could have been demonic. Were you, you know, do you have kids out of wedlock?

That's kind of demonic. You know, there's all these things and you look at 2025 that they're trying to project 2025.

[Tommy Lavin]
I think this is setting the framework for project 2025. Like you were talking about where they set the framework for Roe. This is the same sort of thing.

They're just putting this shit out there.

[Lilin Lavin]
Project Blitz was kind of like the initial phase of, I think what we're seeing project 2025 and that particular institution, they've done this different time throughout history. I mean, I believe since the Reagan administration, if not before, but I know at least during that period, they began putting out these kind of plans for the upcoming election, the upcoming political years, and they would kind of outline what they wanted to kind of push society towards. Yeah, their ideology.

Right. So I believe it's the Heritage Foundation. So when you look, they have the documents online.

You can look back for many years and you look at what was instituted from when they began putting these kind of memorandums or whatever you want to call them out, the directives. They have instituted a great many of them over time. They chipped away at many different facets of society in order to make what they've now deemed appropriate, appropriate, and to take away what they deemed inappropriate.

And it's just the hypocrisy is just it abounds.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So, but with Roe, I mean, what they did is like you said, they chipped away, they chipped away, they passed laws, they passed laws that then the Supreme Court said, well, you can't enforce those. And the states just said, okay, fine.

But they left them on the books. They left them on the books, didn't enforce them, but they left them on the books because they knew they were working on getting Roe overturned. So the day that Roe got overturned, those laws were there.

They didn't have to get through committee. They didn't have to do shit. They were already right there.

And so that is what I see them doing with this. They're pushing it through. It'll probably get, the Supreme Court will probably say that's unconstitutional.

You can't enforce that. They won't enforce it, but I bet your ass, they won't take the laws down because they're betting on project 2025. And let's say a conservative doesn't win this time around.

They'll just move it to project 2028, and they'll just kick the can down the road. And in the meantime, they're going to continue to try and pass these laws and put more bills like this out there. And the fact that people just sit around quiet or, oh, it's not that big of a deal or don't do anything.

I don't know if people can tell it pisses me off because I'm like, this attacks everybody. Everybody.

[Lilin Lavin]
And inaction is still a choice.

[Tommy Lavin]
Inaction is an action. It is absolutely a choice.

[Lilin Lavin]
So by not voting to despite whatever the hell thing that you're mad about, you're acting on behalf of those people who wish you harm.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So by staying quiet, by putting your head in the sand, by whatever the hell you do, that's still an action. You've just made a conscious choice to say, you know what?

I'm not going to speak up about this.

[Lilin Lavin]
And I've heard it before. I hear it a lot. Well, I have opinions about this stuff, but I just don't vote.

Well, then I don't really give two craps about your damn opinion, about political anything because you have removed yourself from the equation. You chose that. And if you didn't like it, you should have gotten involved.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I don't know. Like I said, I was amazed how quickly from because we had a different podcast.

We were going to kind of talk about something different. And then all of a sudden this shit happened. It was like, holy shit, we can't not talk about this because not only did it went from bad to worse.

[Lilin Lavin]
I find it alarming. I find it alarming the increasing frequency with which they kind of do this. And I call them buckshot bills because of exactly what it does.

It shoots it out there. It causes a little bit of damage here, maybe no damage over there. But then they see and perfect over time how to more target these things.

And then they go in for more precision. But right now they're just doing this little by little. And I would not doubt at all that we'll see more states put forward more legislation similar to this.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. Because see, I look at it and I could be, I'll be the first to say, I could be completely fucking wrong on this. But I look at the Arizona bill, very vague, very, very vague, but so open-ended, doesn't have a lot of language.

Then I look at the Iowa bill, it's got more meat to it. So to me, it looks like, and specifically, given that the chairman in Arizona used the same language that was in the Iowa bill, it looks to me like they said, okay, here's some of the holes that we see. Let's plug these holes.

Let's make this bill.

[Lilin Lavin]
Or part of that, because with Arizona, they were amending something that already was on the books to add just the satanic displays and whatnot. And I think that was reactionary to what happened with Iowa, with Michael Cassidy. Well, he said it as much.

So when you look at that, it was to just amend something and add it on with Iowa. They're directly just going after it in general. And what I think that you'll start to see happen, and I wouldn't be surprised, I believe I heard maybe the Idaho was looking at some stuff, but I would be pleasantly surprised, I guess, if Oklahoma, who I see do a lot of these kind of piggyback bills, didn't get on board with that, or other states that have kind of alluded to the same sort of thing.

And Oklahoma, because they've gone after a great many things and kind of used similar language as well, especially when it comes to things like school.

[Tommy Lavin]
Ten Commandments, things like that.

[Lilin Lavin]
And Utah, where they've done similar sort of things. Arizona is another one.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, Arizona's already doing it. I think you meant Arkansas. With Ray Burt's documents.

[Lilin Lavin]
In the past, Arizona has done other similar bills. So I wouldn't be surprised if they don't add more things on top of this. But just looking at the states that notoriously do this sort of thing, I wouldn't be surprised because I think I recently saw, I'm reaching here, I think it was Missouri just re-implemented corporal punishment.

[Tommy Lavin]
Probably.

[Lilin Lavin]
So again, this is the sort of stuff where they're going so far backwards in a very, very negative, dangerous, concerning way that I encourage everyone, you've got to keep your eyes peeled. Don't make yourself sick with worry. Don't just focus on it 24-7.

Don't immerse yourself completely, especially if you're not in a healthy place to do that, because this does wear on a person. It absolutely does wear on a person.

[Tommy Lavin]
It does. I mean, I absolutely would not be surprised to see Florida and Texas throw one of these out too. I think Florida would do it before Texas.

Yeah. And the thing is, you have to not only look at the Senate and the Congress in that state, you have to look at the governor because the governor cannot sign it or can veto it. But in a state like Iowa, Lucian kind of said this as well, that he can see the governor of Iowa signing this.

I could see Greg Abbott absolutely signing this in Texas. I could see DeSantis signing it in Florida. So I can list off a ton of states where I can see the governors signing these type of bills.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. And in the interim, as you've seen with the abortion cases, that even when they're in conflict and mediating and dealing with all the different aspects of trying to challenge these things, people are still suffering the consequences. People are still being denied care or being jailed or depending on the legislation.

So it's super important, especially if you're a member of the satanic community or other considered fringe religious beliefs, because these things will not only apply to satanism, they will open that up. It will become more broad. They will start to apply to other individuals because, like it or not, Catholic folks, we mentioned, they definitely don't- You're considered satanic.

You're considered satanic in some way.

[Tommy Lavin]
You might not think so. And we've had those arguments with Catholics. They're like, no, we're Christian.

It's like, yeah, I understand that. No, I'm sorry. It was the other way around.

I've heard it both ways. We were arguing with some evangelicals and Christian nationalists that we were saying Catholics are Christian. They were absolutely not.

No, no, Catholics are not Christian. And it's like, no, actually, they are. But they don't see Catholics as, again, worshiping false idols.

They see the whole priest there. And that's an interference between the direct connection and relationship between you and Jesus. And so they see that as satanic.

[Lilin Lavin]
And then even churches that have separated because of issues like LGBTQ acceptance and things like that, this is where you start to see the language kind of overlapping. So satanism, satanic, the LGBTQIA community is satanic. The trans community, absolutely, is deemed- all their behaviors are deemed satanic.

And care for kids, the parents that support their kids are satanic and demonic and possessed. And now we've got- you see how ridiculous it gets. You see the Super Bowl and Taylor Swift, she's demonic.

[Tommy Lavin]
And it's satanic. Super Bowl is fucking satanic.

[Lilin Lavin]
Psy-ops things. And it sounds ludicrous.

[Tommy Lavin]
It sounds loony. It sounds crazy. And it's like, like I said, 10 years ago, I would have been like, it could never fucking happen here.

[Lilin Lavin]
But this was the crap you saw on daytime talk shows that everyone, like, with a weird, dirty, like, little back-mind interest in watching these crappy little daytime talk shows. It was like the goofy shit you would watch because you had some free time and it was always outlandish. And it was just not the way the world was.

And now these outlandish fringe ideas that were just the, you know, the little obsessive mind of folks that love daytime TV and just loved, you know, just the goofiness of it. This is now the everyday life.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, they voted those people into political positions. These politicians, they don't understand the constitution. They don't understand laws.

They see it as, it is my duty to push forward my ideology on everybody else. That's what they think they've been voted in for. Because in many times they've been voted in by a large amount of evangelicals and that's how they won their vote.

[Lilin Lavin]
They treat the pulpit as a place to preach the politics, the politics from, and they use it for politicking. And then people that have a specific, you know, alignment with the church feel compelled to do those things and vote in that way. And that's incredibly manipulative.

But, you know, when you look at the things that are happening and what's going on, you know, if you're not angry yet, just give it some time. But if you guys are not sure where you stand on this and you haven't gone and watched what happened in Arizona and the way that Hoffman spoke to these individuals that were just simply trying to say, we believe in pluralism. We believe that we do have a religious right to have freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and to have these established constitutional rights that apply to everyone.

He made fun of them. He belittled them. And he very blatantly stated that he works for God, his state represents God.

And if you offend God, you offend, you know, him and he will go after you.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. I mean, like I said, at the end, he went on a bit of a religious bigoted tirade because he talked about Iowa and then he talked about some gay sex orgy that happened in the Capitol.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right. Trying to link them together. Again, though, you see where the mindset is, where anything homosexual acts are of the devil.

And they try to link as if the individuals that had that, you know, gay sex that they recorded, you know, that means that they were Satanist. They were just individuals that were, you know, doing things, consensual sexual things between one another, maybe not the best place, not the best venue. I personally wouldn't choose to do that, but they were consensual, consenting adults and they did what they did, but they were not Satanist.

It's not connected. And he just, he boldly just stated as if they were known to be part of our community and they were not.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. And so that's, that's the scary part. And so that's why this pisses me off so much.

And it's why it pisses me off when I see people just so complacent. They're like complacent about the whole thing. They're like, Oh, okay.

You know, well, it doesn't affect me. I'm not a Satanist or I am a Satanist, but you know what? I can just not be a Satanist.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter unless you are converting to become an evangelical Christian. And then if you are, you probably weren't, weren't really, I won't even go into that.

You know, but at the end of the day, this, this shit needs to be taken seriously.

[Lilin Lavin]
And outside of the big election that's coming up, you know, and I do encourage everyone to go out there and vote. Like your life depends on it. Yeah, seriously.

Because your freedoms most certainly do. But I want you to pay attention to the legislation that's coming through again, keeping in mind what you can and cannot tolerate as an individual and not putting yourself in a position of burnout or harm. Especially when it comes to the LGBTQIA community, because they are inundated all the time with so many harmful, dangerous bills that in essence, question their very right to exist, which is beyond abhorrent, but a different conversation.

And if you see these legislation coming through, if you see individuals that are supporting this legislation, call your representative. If you're in that state, call, email, write letters, get together. You have a congregation, sit down.

If you're so compelled and individuals that are interested, write together different things, impact statements, share what this does to you as part of the community. You guys are tax paying individuals, right? We have the right to representation.

And if you're going to sit there and say that we don't exist, and we aren't given the right to exist, you know, that that's a problem.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, fuck it makes some noise. You know, when people say Satanism isn't a religion, nothing else coming back. Yes, it is.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, and even ask them if you want to have more of a useful dialogue, why isn't it a religion? What is it that you believe takes away from that? And let them explain it to you so you can better understand where they're coming at it from, or what it is that they're being told so that you can kind of frame a response.

And even if you're not the most eloquent speaker, we have foundational values, we have different symbolism, we have community, we have ritual practice, we do things that we are by many of the definitions of because there isn't one set definition, right? But by many of the established definitions of what makes one a religion, we are in fact a religion.

[Tommy Lavin]
We're not we obviously, I mean, we met all the criteria to be recognized by the IRS in the United States as a religion, right? So, but you don't have to argue that point. You know, some people don't, I don't recommend arguing it or anything like that.

I mean, but just simply, and Lucian tried to make this point to just, I mean, just simply say, yes, we are a religion, you get enough people at least pushing back saying, you know, who are you to define what my religion is? Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, I'm not out there telling Christians, they're not religious.

Sure.

[Lilin Lavin]
You know, definitely, I definitely sometimes do that.

[Tommy Lavin]
Well, I mean, they're a religion.

[Lilin Lavin]
They are a religion, but they don't always act. They don't follow.

[Tommy Lavin]
Right. But they're still a religion.

[Lilin Lavin]
They are unquestionably, regardless of what it is that and if they say they are, they are. And I have no business telling them they're not what I will say. And what I have said is they're not acting in the way that they have aligned themselves and based on the, you know, their biblical context.

[Tommy Lavin]
You know, I mean, they're definitely not following what Jesus said.

[Lilin Lavin]
Yeah. But be that as it may, I don't get to define their religion. No, I get to call it bullcrap when they say that they're living up to it while, you know, we have their, their, you know, idol or whatever you want to call him saying that, you know, you feed your, you know, the foreigners, you care for your neighbors, you do these things.

And yet they're trying to drown, you know, immigrants that are trying to legally enter through, you know, a very recognized process. So, you know, there's just so much wrong with it. And I'll never not stand up against what I feel is wrong and harmful in general, not because it's what I believe, but because I have compassion, empathy for my community, because they believe that we are, in fact, stronger together because they believe in pluralism.

And regardless of whether or not I agree with, you know, your particular religion, if you're acting in the best interest of everyone, and if I can, you know, relate to you, if you care enough about you need to be involved and be helping people. That's all I care about.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. So well, I know. Wow, tangent.

Sorry. No, I mean, it was it was, I think, all productive, but holy shit, 56 minutes just fucking flew by on this one. So I mean, yeah, I guess I would end with whether you consider yourself a Satanist or not, does not matter.

It does not matter with these bills. It's if they deem you a Satanist. And that is a very slick.

I mean, even if it was only attacking Satanist, this still unconstitutional, right? It still goes against every, you know, it completely throws the Constitution out the window. But just realize that in America, we have freedom of religion.

It's not freedom of religion. As long as I like your religion, as long as your religion isn't, you know, an offense to my religion. That's that's not what the Constitution says.

These laws are blatantly throwing the Constitution out the window. They're shredding it.

[Lilin Lavin]
Right? Well, and the Establishment Clause protects a great many religions, not just Satanism. The Free Exercise Clause, it will affect a great many individuals, not just Satanists.

So whatever it is that you believe or nothing at all, if you believe nothing at all, you cannot prevent individuals in power from labeling you as a specific sort of thing and associating you with a specific sort of thing. They've done it. They'll continue to do it.

As I pointed out, you know, the McMartins and all these other individuals, they were deemed that it was decided for them. They didn't identify that way.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah. The reason Putin gave to invade Ukraine was they were Satanist. I mean, that was one of the reasons he gave.

So I mean, if that doesn't help open up your eyes that fuck, I don't know what else will.

[Lilin Lavin]
So just because you don't associate or you don't identify or it's not something you currently align yourself with, although maybe you're an ally, that doesn't mean you won't be associated or aligned or put into that category. So I encourage everyone, you have to be involved at this point. We have been too complacent up to this point.

It is incumbent upon all of us to stand up for our rights, to stand up for what we believe. And we, I'm hoping, believe that as a community, we are stronger together, doing things together, benefiting as many of us as is humanly possible, and defending the rights that we have built this wonderful tapestry of a pluralistic nation on.

[Tommy Lavin]
Yeah, I, I think, I don't know how much further we can go. I beat it to death.

[Lilin Lavin]
But, you know, I just encourage you guys, I don't think that, you know, it's all or nothing at this point. Yeah, but we're definitely getting to a point, I encourage you, please be involved. Yeah, please speak up, please counter the negative, fake things that you see out there.

And just don't be afraid to stand on principle, we have principles, even if you're not a Satanist. I know we share so many principles between one another. And that shared understanding of the world.

That's what we need to work from.

[Tommy Lavin]
Absolutely. So with that, I will say goodnight, good morning, good day, wherever the hell you're at, and Hail Satan! Hail you, Hail Satan!